Talk:Publius Enigma

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Contents

[edit] The Return of Publius?

Apparently the messageboard which was once at PubliusEnigma.com was getting visits from a member named PubliusEnigma who, according to at least one source, left a very clear prediction (and a sign of validity) in the form of the following message sometime around 2004/2005:

July 2nd, 2005
Hyde Park London
Approximately 11:11
Flashing white lights
Think Outside the Wall [1]

July 2nd, of course, was the date of the Live 8 performance in which Pink Floyd reunited as a four-man band. The forum was apparently hacked very soon afterwards and this message seems to have been lost. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 03:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Uncle Custard

The following is quoted as an excerpt from Brain Damage Magazine, issue #34.

"Q: Who is Publius Enigma, what is the meaning of it all, and what is the treasure to be had?

A: (Uncle Custard) As the Infamous Q has emphasized, 'you humans are so limited'. This is a project for all those out there with higher IQ's, it does require a mastery of diverse languages, along with a lot of spare time. Now get with it...the lights were brighter, the meaning is worn inside out, the bell has tolled and the surrogate band is coming back to life. The answer lies, non-linearly, within he paradox of the theme of The Division Bell- communication breakdown. (Hint: Watch the Learning to Fly video!) It may also involve an anomoly in the time-space continuum. There is an obvious solution and you do not need to be a Floyd historian to figure it out! Winners will recieve official entry into the Mensa Society and some dry ice to cool down all those neural pathways in your brain. It is important to note that neither I nor anyone involved with this zine will enter into any correspondence on this topic. It's a puzzle for you, devised by the one who loves you enough to drive you mad. Besides, I'm much too busy creating crop circles and executing think-tank projects for the Pentagon."

The man identified only as Uncle Custard remains unmasked but is purported to be a 'reliable source.'[2]

I am currently unable to find documentation of the original information. Was Brain Damage a printed magazine? If anyone can help to verify this information, I think it would make a good inclusion in the article. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Publius Enigma Original Forum Hacked

The official Publius Enigma forum has been closed as it was hacked into.Instead the alternative PE forum has now been updated with original contents from the official PE site.--asydwaters 16:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the URL of the alternative forum? Does it still exist? --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Current Status of the Enigma

Query about "Current status of the Enigma". The Division Bell article cites it has having been "apparently solved within a few years" but this article says it remains unsolved. I'm unsure as to which is correct, having no direct knowledge of the events, but I thought this should be brought to attention. I intend to post a similar message on the talk of the Division Bell article. Gamesmaster 18:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Publius posts said the enigma was solved, yet Nick Mason himself says it has yet to be solved. I'm not sure who to believe. --hfx_chris 11:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
So, which is the solution??? --Tonyjeff 14:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Publius consistently posted using the reply-to address "an109546@anon.penet.fi." The posts which are commonly referred to as the ones in which Publius declares the enigma solved can be read at the Pink Floyd & Co enigma history page if you scroll all the way to the bottom. Notice that these messages have the reply-to address of "nobody@REPLAY.COM." These posts are about two years apart from the previous documented Publius messages, and the tone and writing style differ significantly. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Puzzle Piece Picture

Where was this picture taken from? It was the only one I could find on the web. The image also looks similar to the cover art for Frances the Mute, which was also designed by Storm Thorgerson.

This image has since been automatically removed. Would anyone who knows the picture in question be able to provide us with a link? --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 03:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Theories/Clues/Possible Solutions

The proponents of this theory claim to have discovered exacting relationships between the page numbers, the piano composition of the first track Cluster One, the glyph on page two of the booklet, as well as the glyphs which featured on the balloons in the High Hopes music video. It involved locating a missing key which was the piano note "D" and displacing this 'missing' note with two other singular notes C and C (in the final part of the piano) into three dots featured inside the booklet and on the spine of the CD cover. Played together the notes C and D on piano represent a basic example of what makes a piano cluster. Incidentally, the dissonance of the tuning in the specially made foundry bell in the final track High Hopes was tuned prominently to C, with D harmonics.

YBorg, could you explain your solution a little better? I have no idea what this means:
"It involved locating a missing key which was the piano note "D" and displacing this 'missing' note with two other singular notes C and C (in the final part of the piano) into three dots featured inside the booklet and on the spine of the CD cover."
And the PDF doesn't really help much. It looks like you've discovered an interesting correlation between the album artwork and the musical structure of Cluster One. While this is undoubtedly very interesting, and probably the only real progress on the Publius Enigma in 13 years, it doesn't seem to lead to an answer, so calling it a "solution" seems to be a bit premature. --Nasarius 17:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion in the Pink Floyd newsgroup regarding connections between Pink Floyd's mediums of communication or their "message" (art, lyrics, & music of PF) and ancient mythological/religious themes and cosmic conjunctions. Particularly the sacred Mayan date of Dec, 21 2012 at precisely 11:11 universal time when an alignment of the sun, earth, pluto, and the center of our galaxy will occur.

  • Marooned by 938HBOM

Since the editors will not allow this in the main article I'll put it here...no skin off my nose...it's your loss, not mine

This possible solution is related to the Marooned page in the Division Bell booklet that came with the CD version. It is on [3]page 9 and reveals symbolic "stars" (The Cluster One page has a photo of radio observatories which suggests an astronomical theme).

The asterism of the Big Dipper in the constellation Ursa Major appears when the image is "mirrored" at the M and D in the letters MAROONED to form an I and O. This is in reference to the phrase "I Open My Door" in the last stanza of the song [4]"Lost For Words" (see images)

[5]division.JPG

[6] Maroon_mirror.JPG

David Gilmour gives many clues to this in his most recent solo album "On An Island" in the music, most notably in the song "On An Island" when he sings "Let the night surround you / we're halfway to the stars" which may suggest that the Marooned image is only half of the full picture. The use of sound effects like sand falling and hitting a surface at this verse in the song suggests the "juxtaposition" of the sand and stars in the "Marooned" page image. It is possible "Red Sky At Night" is another hint at the red color of the sand and the apparent stars that are hidden within the image of "Marooned".

If the marooned image is inverted (negative image)then the colors turn blue (the inverse of red is blue), which could explain the next song "The Blue".

In the song "The Blue" are the words "Still, marooned Silence drifting through..." which is a possible connection to the Marooned page and Lost For Words page on The Division Bell (with the idea of Lost=marooned and silence=at a loss for words). Later in this song are the words "star-crossed you and me" implying the connection to astronomy again.

Currently, the most compelling evidence of the enigma's existence and fore-knowledge by the band occurs on the "Wearing The Inside Out" page 13:

[7]NI_AGME.jpg

The full image of "Wearing The Inside Out" pages [8] 12 and [9]13 show the contrast of dark and light and a door which is suggestive of the door mentioned in the song "Lost For Words". Lyrics were written by Anthony Moore and Music was written by Richard Wright. The song Lost For Words suggests "Because there'll be no safety in numbers when the Right One walks out of the door" which is a possible reference to Richard Wright's song and the reference to ENIGMA cleverly hidden in the lyrics as "NI AGME" 3 columns from the right. As well, the recurring three dots (ellipsis) are centered 3 rows from the top and 3 rows from the bottom of this segment in the lyrics at row 4, which quite possibly explains the CDC of the previous theory (C=3 D=4 C=3 on the notion that A=1 B=2 C=3 D=4...etc.).

The reference to Frances the Mute is a variation of Francis the talking Mule. You can see the front view of a Mule's head in the mirrored Marooned page on the left (the sand looks like Martian soil...Mars Volta) which is the same side of the car the driver is on in the picture. Also, the acrostic of Ursa Major Big Dipper spells DUMB (as in "MUTE") when jumbled...the "door" is "the mouth" as explained in all of the lyrics.

Disclaimer: No bears were harmed in the writing of this article

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 938HBOM (talk • contribs) 01:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Cleanup

The following was moved from User talk:Pmedema

It would be rather difficult if not impossible to cite all of the changes that were necessary to keep the article properly organized and accurate. In fact, it's very much a work in progress. The reasons for most of the edits should be pretty obvious, unless you really want me to break it down bit by bit and explain each and every one of them. 'Citing' them would take quite a lot of this. The only reasonably citable edit that was made was the addition to the 'Clues' section which states the fact that the word 'enigma' appears on page 13 of the booklet. It clearly links to an image which proves this to be true.

Other major changes I will attempt to explain so you can see where I'm going with this:

1. Storm Thorgerson and Nick Mason are not 'known' desigers of the enigma. There was no reference for this 'fact' because it isn't conclusively true and was therefore removed because it was not only unproven, it was misleading.

2. The quote by Nick Mason was reorganized to include the same information, but without being redundant.

3. The 'Clues' section was formed from existing information in the article because that's exactly the subject matter of the bits that were categorized under that header. The information is not about the Current Status of the Enigma, it is about the clues associated with it. Therefore, a new section was necessary.

4. 'Possible Solutions' are NOT solutions. They are partial theories. It's as simple as that. When it comes to enigma discussion, 'theories' are groups of ideas which follow a single direction and usually lead to significant results and discoveries but do not qualify as being a complete solution. While there are many other theories that need to be included in this section (and in time, they shall be), neither of the two that are listed (let alone any of the others) meet the criteria for being a complete solution. When it comes to the Publius Enigma or the music of Pink Floyd, nothing is set in stone unless it is confirmed by the band. Therefore, the author of C.D.C. has not "found exacting relationships," he "CLAIMS to have found" them. You can also see that Theory 1 is listed in bullet format with a title but the second is just a paragraph. I edited this so that the second theory matches the formatting of the first. It's all about organization and logical flow of information.

I hardly see it necessary or efficient to include this much information in the Edit Summary, but if you insist upon my presenting an entire essay when the appropriate changes are needed... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinagreenelvis (talk • contribs) 17:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Citations are not needed in the edit summary but in the article itself. Any "theories" are more then likely a violation of WP:OR and will not pass WP:N and most definately violate WP:V. Wikipedia is not a blog or forum but I've been lenient with not saying much if these "Theories" are in the discussion portion of the article. If What you say is true about the sourcing of the article then perhaps it should go up for AfD because, what you are saying is that the article does not pass WP:V as a whole... PS: don't forget to sign your talk page entries. --Pmedema (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

If that's the case, then the Solution Theories section should definitely be cut altogether and moved to the discussion page. I don't know what AfD means, but the only non-verifiable information that the article contained has been removed, namely the claim that Storm Thorgerson and Nick Mason had any say in the design of the enigma. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 18:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I would like to have this page possibly to the point that it can be a featured item. Lets get some proper citations and other opinions and do this article up. I really could care less about solving the enigma but I do find it interesting that people dedicate so much to such a possibility of a "strung by the nose" idea. So...... if you have some reliable sources go to [10] and make some up. I'll look around too. After we cite this, we will have to cut some of the peacock words in the article and move on to a good layout and maybe expand the article. Are there organizations that have regular documented meetings regarding this, etc... --Pmedema (talk) 13:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Good work on marking up where citations are needed. Before making any direct edits myself, I figure this is a decent space to suggest futher changes.
  • "At the end of the concert, the logo for the DVD authoring company Das Boot uses an enigma machine as their logo, a subtle reminder that the enigma was still unsolved. Some die-hard enigma hunters have invested years of hard work to find a solution to the enigma presented by Publius." -- I would say that the italicized section simply be deleted. Any meaning behind the use of the enigma machine is pure speculation. The fact that people have spent months, years, a decade or more trying to solve the thing is not only uncitable, it's superfluous.
  • The section on Genesis definitely needs a lot of cleaning up, possibly a full rewrite.
  • "Apparent clues to the existence and validity of the Enigma have appeared in releases of Pink Floyd related media, including some releases not connected to EMI: -- More superfluous information. If one of the listed clues is a work completely unrelated to EMI as a company, that information should probably just be listed with the item. I'm not sure what, if anything, listed is unconnected. I'd suggest deleting this portion of the sentence.
  • There is more specific information regarding the claim that the user PubliusEnigma predicted the Live 8 event. The paragraph can be reworked to include that. There should be a few news articles/YouTube videos around somewhere to validate the time of Pink Floyd's set that night which should suffice as a reference.
  • Either IMDB or the website for 11:11 has citable information regarding Pink Floyd's connection with the movie. I don't know of any quotes or referencable material that specifies that "High Hopes" is about the split from childhood to adulthood, however. I'm sure it's one of the themes of the film, but that information needs to be referenced and edited to match the facts.
  • "With OAI being released exactly 30 days (one average month) before the official 12th anniversary of the US release date of TDB, it may be hard for enigmatists to dismiss this as coincidence." -- Although the information regarding the release of On an Island needs to be verified, this should probably be reworde to emphasize the fact that the release date was 11 years, 11 months after the release of The Division Bell. Examinging it more, though, I'm not sure this sort of thing qualifies as a "clue." There are however, a lot of verifiable 11:11 coincidences surrounding TDB, and maybe those coincidences should have their own subsection.

--Chinagreenelvis (talk) 17:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've started a scratch pad in my userspace (scratch pad now removed) User:Pmedema/Publius Enigma Feel free to mark it up add etc... If I may ask that instead of deleting stuff that we use a scratchout method so that we can keep track of what we are removing. I've been finding some more web sites that seem to pass WP:RS. I'll be adding them and the information... it may seem like a mess at the start but we'll put it back together as we go. Lets keep the discussion on this page though. When we're done we'll move that page to here.

  • I agree with the removal of the "alternate reality" part of the opening. Was thinking of that as well (changes done currently only on the scratch pad in userspace) --Pmedema (talk) 13:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Trying to get a little more "just the facts" with the bits about Publius' messages, using more direct quotes and taking out speculative phrases like "claimed there was an enigma in the lyrics, etc." The reader should probably just decide for themselves what Publius is or is not suggesting about the album... --70.16.250.229 (talk) 00:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the scratchpad page has done all it can. The article looks pretty solid to me, so I've done what I can to make sure the two are on par with one another. Any future updates I make will probably just go here, so the scratchpad may actually become outdated. Thoughts? --71.253.141.68 (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I think I agree. Scratch pad has done it's job. Thanks.

[edit] Genesis

In light of the poor factual and grammatical form of this segment, its superfluous nature, the fact that this messenger failed for more than a decade to provide proof of his legitimacy, and the overwhelming evidence as discussed on alt.music.pink-floyd that "Genesis" was none other than Sean Hutchenson, an obvious fan but a hoaxer and Canadian citizen completely unrelated to Publius, the enigma and Pink-Floyd who himself heavily edited and re-edited this entry in the past, has not been active on the newsgroup in well over a year, and in general has had an irrevertably confusing and overall discombobulating effect on the enigmatist community, I have taken it upon myself to completely remove the Genesis section and direct links to his posts. --Chinagreenelvis (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Good Job... no issues here. --Pmedema (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

The following was removed from the article to the discussion area. --Pmedema (talk) 13:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)