Talk:Public nudity

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[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 12:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Clothing-optional activities on public lands → Public nudity – {"Public nudity" is a more common reference for the subject, even though the term "Clothing-optional activities on public lands" is a bit more clear to me and others. I guess I would like others' opinions on this. Dandelion1 21:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)} copied from the entry on the WP:RM page

  • Support

I support this move because the general public would more likely use this phrase to refer to the subject Dandelion1 21:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Comment input whilst move was underway

For the record, I thought I'd still include the following, even though the move occurred whilst I was originally inputting it.

Add any additional comments
  • Current title [then "Clothing-optional activities on public lands"] strikes me as very cumbersome, as if trying to be "politically correct" but with tongue-in-cheek? So I support a change to something straightforward. However, I propose Public naturism or Naturism (public) in case there are people who'd be perturbed by an article title including the word "nudity" or "nudism".

Regards, David Kernow 13:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I would strongly disagree with the suggestion to use "naturism" or "nudism" in the title of the article. Many who engage in nudity on public lands are NOT naturists or nudists and would cringe from the association. Also, the use of those phrases is not common at all. Dandelion1 18:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I have struck out my observation above as I agree it was ill-conceived. Thank you for pointing this out. David Kernow 22:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tagged for cleanup

This article, and particularly the Non-sexualized section needs some cleanup. Currently it reads as a collection of disjointed observations. There is a lot of material in there which can be used but it should be moved out of list format whenever possible. --StuffOfInterest 19:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overkill

Does this article REALLY need so many images and so many (unsourced) quotes? wikipediatrix 23:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

No. Feel free to fix it. Just zis Guy you know? 11:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Just did. Left only the celebrity quotes, and removed a few images that already appear on other articles, plus one that was just plain silly and borderline spammy. Also corrected "Wiccan" to "Neo-Pagan": Wiccans aren't the only people who say "skyclad". wikipediatrix 02:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: topless protest image

I've added this image as an example of a protest where toplessness is being used as an attention-getter or "draw" for an issue other than toplessness itself. Please note that the caption up to and inclusive of "2005" is required by the license of the image and must not be altered or removed. The portion of the caption after "2005" is my addition and could be altered, if needed. Kasreyn 11:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I removed the image because it is a still from a film, which is essetially a situation constructed for tittilation, according to the links attached to the image. Images used with permission are in any case deprecated (more than other forms of unfree image) and in this case it appears that the article is being used to promote the film and its maker, and I am not comfortable with that. Please do not reinsert without discussion. Just zis Guy you know? 16:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are talking about concerning tittilation. Charles Macfarland has several film showing society's response to public nudity and so it fits in well to this article. User:Dandelion (talk|contribs) 01:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I think a single Macfarland shot is fine, three is a bit much. A shot from Spencer Tunick might also be appropriate in this article. We should distinguish clearly photographs that identify different forms of public nudity. Titillation is certainly one of them, and there's nothing wrong with showing that. Other forms include: public nudity as an artform (Tunick etc.), as a lifestyle choice, as a way to generate attention for an unrelated issue (war protests etc.), as a method of publicly expressing an attitude specifically about sexuality and the human body, as part of other activities like sports (should not be staged), and as a punishment. The social reactions to it are also important (the arrest shot is good in that regard).
This article is about public nudity, and I would like it to be richly illustrated in an informative manner. I would recommend the following specific steps: 1) Removal of the naked riding photo (staged from movie, at best duplicates the "titillating" photo, and could be intepreted as promotional for Macfarland); 2) Removal of "Naked celebration" photo from Macfarland -- not particularly high quality and duplicates "Nude & Breast Freedom Parada" in its content; 3) Addition of a photo illustrating nudism, e.g. Image:Bredene naturist beach in belgium cropped.jpg, 4) Addition of one of Tunick's photos, e.g. Image:SpencerTunick-Brugge2.jpg. For historical goodness, John Collier's painting of Lady Godiva might make a nice addition.--Eloquence* 23:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] leading image

Why did we change the lead image of Image:Petra+fishermen.jpg with

The young people hiking in the woods in the Czech Republic was perfect. The Adamites image is black and white, and note at all visually interesting (to me). Besides, how is a religious cult a good lead image for this article?

Atom 00:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, think about what message it sends. The image of the young people in the park is a positive one: their nudity is obviously peaceful and accepted, there are smiles all around. Now compare the Adamites: nudity is portrayed in the context of upheaval, torment, and cruelty. I'm certainly not denying that nudists have historically been persecuted. But I have no doubt which is the more appropriate image to begin with: Petra+fishermen.jpg. Kasreyn 01:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, the look on the face of that boy with the blue cap is priceless. 193.217.240.102 01:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, as there has been no response in four days, no one must care much about it. I'm switching the images back to where they were, pending further discussion. Kasreyn 23:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it think the article looks much better like that (after change to put petra_fisherman at the top, and adamites back in their section). Atom 15:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RATM protest

I notice that we have an image of the Rage Against the Machine protest of the PMRC (in which they sacrificed their timeslot at a concert while standing nude with taped mouths and "P M R C" written on their chests). I'm not sure whether adding this might be a bit too many nude protest images; would three be too many? Kasreyn 02:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Way too many images

We all (all of us with the gift of sight) know what a nude person is and what the outdoors looks like. Most of the images here are redundant - 2 or 3 of the most technically excellent images, or images related to important events in the history of public nudity, are all that's needed. Currently the article has 12+ images, with the only common theme being "naked people, outside". Seen one, you've seen 'em all! (excluding certain artworks, which may or may not be relevant) --kingboyk 15:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I've just deleted the most recent addition while reverting another edit. Should I perhaps remove some of the other ones as well? -- NORTH talk 22:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vermont

I'm just posting this here because my edit summary for my last edit was truncated. There's been a minor revert war going on regarding a link to the story in Brattleboro. I feel that the story is relevant, but I also agree that the link to the blog entry was inappropriate for this context. So instead I've included a link to a better article with a non-spam link. -- NORTH talk 09:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beach Photograph

This image is absolutely unnecessary. There are more images in this article than there are in the PHOTOGRAPHY wiki--riiiiight. The image clearly isn't a candid one, it's a model posing for the shot, it's Photoshopped, it's -porn-. Are people so dumb that they can't imagine for themselves what a nude person on a beach might look like, even after being shown TWO (!!) nude people in a forest? --Somnilocus 11:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see more images of public nudity, to accurately represent how widespread it really is. It is not something commonly covered in the media. As for "porn", everyone has their opinion on whatthat means. A healthy and natural naked body isn't remotely close to porn in my book. Atom 13:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine--photos of an actual NUDE BEACH. But a posed Photoshopped portrait of a woman on a beach with her genital area shaved to expose her vagina is slightly different, no? Yeah. --Somnilocus 02:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well, people pose for photos all the time. I see nude women frequently, and most of them shave, or wax their pubic area. Many women also pluck their eyebrows and nosehair, that doesn't make pictures of them pornography. As for her vagina, well, you'd have to have xray vision for that. The best I can see is her mons, and labia. As far as I know, most nude women have a mons venus and labia. Again, nothing to do with pornography. Are you trying to say that you find the picture arousing, and therfore, it must be pornography because it arouses you? Atom 03:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because someone manages their pubic hair doesn't make every photo of them porn, no. Having said that, I think Image:Formentera_i_Eivissa_016_cropped.jpg (used on the Nudity page) illustrates nude beaches better- you can't even see a beach in Image:BuoyIK.jpg... Fishies Plaice 11:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I never said that because of THAT, it was porn. But when you put those things together, it's done for a purpose, is it not? The point is, it doesn't show what nude beaches are truly like. People who go to them aren't all blonde-haired, blue-eyed women in perfect shape posing on the shore with little pink accessories, and then go on to have their skin photoshopped to remove imperfections etc etc. It's not a photo that was taken for the purpose of documenting nude beaches. Notice I'm not complaining about the other nude beach pictures, Atom. Is the point of Wikipedia to show what things are really like, or what they could be like in a perfect, flawless world? Leave out the personal comments, too, please--I'm actually a heterosexual female, thank you. --Somnilocus 12:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is about public nudity, not about beaches, or nude beaches. YOu are right that the picture does not really suggest whether she is at a public or private beach. Atom 22:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the beach photo (Image:BuoyIK.jpg) actually is, it looks like a soft core porn photo, not a picture of everyday public nudity. It makes the article worse, not better. -- Siobhan Hansa 15:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

yeah yeah thats great idc. its a picture. shes not doing anything with a guy. i think people will get the point. its not intended to be porn. mygod.

I would tend to agree with those who oppose the image's inclusion. Per Somnilocus, I think images should at least appear to be candid, rather than obviously staged as this one is. There should also be something to indicate that the nudity actually took place in public - how else could it be public nudity? Since "public" is defined not as "the outdoors" but as "the presence of other people", I'd say to be a candidate, a photo should include at least two or three other persons who are, or could be, viewing the nude person(s). Kasreyn 07:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

One or more people have been putting images of this same woman in multiple articles. In several cases there was almost no relevance to the topic at hand. I've removed those but others are more borderline. This one, and others which look staged, should very likely go from this article and any beach related articles. --StuffOfInterest 13:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Nudity is natural. Clothes are in the store. Skin is no a sin. You are all your body. There are not bad parts in it. Change your mind. Accept your body as it is, cause it is your natural esence. Body is all natural. Bad moral in antinatural. We are human beings with a human body. We can´t deny our constitution. We are not gods. Nudity is not guilty. Get naked in public and art expession yourself. Wear the clothes you want to wear. Be free to wear nothing.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.37.36.93 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 8 February 2007.

Solo photos should NOT be disqualified on that basis alone. (see User:Kasreyn above). To be nude on public land doesn't require the presence of another person. A tripod can be the holder of a camera. Other persons would be required in other cases (ex: titillation[1], exhibitionism, voyeurism) where action/reaction defines the behavior. BodyPride 19:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted "Establishing expectations"

Events which include public nudity are generally classified by whether or not activities are sexualized. This enables potential participants who are concerned about sexual activities to avoid such events. Organized naturist events will normally be understood to be non-sexual, in both public or social (non-intimate) situations.

Generally, the reputation of an event is widely known. If the event includes both sexual and non-sexual activities, the areas of sexual activity can be segregated with restricted access or proper signage. In cases where organizers want participants to be clear about what to expect, they will clearly advertise and label the event as being family-friendly, non-sexual, naturist, or nudist. This will avoid unwanted behavior and garnish community support. In any event the organizers should enforce good manners and appropriate behavior as problems occur.

In high visibility events, this clarity of context often helps determine whether participants can be cited for indecent exposure or whether the activities may be legally deemed obscene, lewd, or lascivious.

I have deleted this part because it has no relevance. Gardenparty (talk) 01:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Topfree fashion image removal

I disagree with some of your changes and will revert the image removals tomorrow. The way to work on Wikipedia is to build consensus when someone takes an issue with changes to long-standing article format, not just edit war with the person. Your etiquette in this regard is poor. See you on the article tomorrow. --David Shankbone 23:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, your image is not that great. Please explain why it should be at the top as an example of public nudity. There are other better images and I will replace weaker ones with stronger ones.User:Dandelion (talk|contribs) 23:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Libertarian link

Why was this removed as an EL? It seems on topic and gives a fair amount of info re. public nudity, laws, etc.Bob98133 (talk) 13:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Necesity

I think this is a good addition to the article, but placing it so high up gives it undue importance, since the article focuses more on voluntary public nudity - so it doesn't address forced public nudity in concentration camps, tribal nudity or other non-voluntary public nudity. Maybe it could be moved closer to the bottom of the article?Bob98133 (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)