Talk:Ptolemaic dynasty
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it would be helpful to have the reigning dates and birth/death dates of each Ptolemy...
OK, I guess this would be a sensible place to ask about these recent Cleopatra articles: What the heck is with the multi-millenium lifespans?!? -- John Owens 01:43 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Even better, this might be a good place to ask Ponyf2t to stop making things up and putting them in the Wikipedia. They won't stay around: it's a waste of his time, and it's a waste of everyone else's. -- Someone else 01:27 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)
phew. I've got this article & talk page synchronized on the SAME capitalization. ... -- Tarquin 20:41 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC)
Why, exactly, are the Ptolemaic consorts listed together with their husbands? That makes it very difficult to put dates to the list, which would be useful. Wouldn't it be a better idea to list the reigning monarch, and then list any consorts subordinately? That would allow for putting the dates of the various Ptolemies, which would be useful, and would make the page less cluttered and more organized. john 02:18 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
why Cleopatra VII is said to be the last pharaoh when there is an other after her in the list and still an other more in the french wiki ? Koxinga
- Arsinoe IV never actually ruled, she just opposed Cleopatra, and Ptolemy XIV and Ptolemy XV were her co-rulers, though Cleo took most of the power. So, really, she was the last Pharaoh. Matjlav 16:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From Ptomeliac Dynasty, which I'm about to turn into a redir - these are maybe useful, maybe not:
- Laodice I Queen of Syria
- Laodice I Princess of Syria
- Laodice III Princess of Pontus
- Cleopatra I Princess of Syria
- Nysa Princess of Syria
- Laodice III Princess of Syria
- Berenice Princess of Syria
- Antiochis Princess of Syria
- Stratonice Princess of Cappadocia
- Cleopatra I Princess of Syria
- Cleopatra II Princess of Egypt
- Cleopatra Thea Princess of Egypt
- Laodike Princess of Syria
- Cleopatra III Eugrgetis Queen of Egypt
- Cleopatra Tryphaena Princess of Egypt
- Laodice Thea Philadelphos Princess of Syria
- Cleopatra IV Princess of Egypt
- Cleopatra Berenice Queen of Egypt
- Cleopatra V Tryphaena Princess of Egypt
- Tryphaena Cleopatra VI Princess of Egypt
- Berenice IV Princess of Egypt
- Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator Queen of Egypt
- Cleopatra Selene Princess of Egypt
- Arsinoe IV Princess of Egypt
Stan 02:14, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
OK, i'm just casually interested in all this... but is that family tree accurate? there seems to have been an awful lot of inbreeding going on here. didn't they realize it might not be a good idea after their kids started having 3 arms or whatever? :\
- As with everything from ancient times, we don't have sufficient DNA samples to prove family relationships, but everybody at the time thought they were related, and certainly the later Ptolemies seem lacking in the brains department. It's also quite possible that some of the queens brought in fresh genetic material, heh-heh. :-) Stan 14:11, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Naming
It seems to me that it would be preferable to name articles on the Ptolemies as Ptolemy I Soter, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Ptolemy III Euergetes, and so forth, rather than the current names. Anyone agree? john k 14:09, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think so. We should have a title that has a little bit about who they were, and not their second names. If it's "Ptolemy I Soter," all the reader could know is that he was a king of some sort, probably. If it's Ptolemy I of Egypt, the reader knows he was probably a King of Egypt. Matjlav 16:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- So what? Ancient rulers do not have to have "of Placename" in their article titles, and these monarchs are generally known by their later names. At any rate, anybody who knows anything about the name "Ptolemy" will recognize that a Ptolemy with a number after his name was "probably a King of Egypt." Those who don't will likely not be looking for anything about Ptolemies, anyway. john k 23:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Choice of family trees
I think I should list some of the reasons I objected to Matjlav’s genealogy.
1) Since Matjlav removed the word “Simplified” from the section heading, I concluded that this tree is meant to be comprehensive. It is anything but. Just to take the most obvious point, many children of Ptolemy I, II, III, VI, VIII and IX are omitted, as are the children of Berenice I by her first husband.
2) It is completely unclear why some individuals are included and others are not. Why an ancestry for Eurydice and Berenice I but not for Arsinoe I or Cleopatra I? How can you omit Ptolemy the Son, coregent for 8 years?
3) Matjlav’s tree is riddled with errors. Not controversial reconstructions, flat out errors. Berenice I was the daughter of Magas not Lagus (this fiction was conclusively knocked on the head by Grace Macurdy in 1932!). Berenice II was not the daughter of Arsinoe I and Ptolemy II, she was the daughter of Magas of Cyrene and Apama. Ptolemy Memphites (not “Memphitis”) was the son of Cleopatra II not Cleopatra III. Ptolemy XI was not the biological son of Berenice III (this was always doubtful, the papyrus that was once thought to say so has been reexamined and shown to be naming Ptolemy X and his “sister” Berenice III). Cleopatra V may have been the sister of Ptolemy XII or his niece, or his cousin, but she certainly wasn’t his aunt. And, while the point may still be regarded as marginally controversial, I don’t know of any modern scholar who has actually studied the issue who regards “Cleopatra VI” as having existed.
Now, the tree I’ve restored isn’t perfect. It has spelling errors (“Ptolomy” the Son) and numbering errors (Ptolemy “XIV” and “XV” for Cleopatra’s bothers). Neither tree differentiates what is known from what is conjectured and controversial. I’m not sure that I would include Antony’s children or the paternity of Cleopatra I, but I would definitely show the marriage of Arsinoe II and Ptolemy II. But this tree doesn’t imply that it is comprehensive, it includes all the rulers and coregents of Egypt (except Ptolemy Eupator, who is omitted in both trees, and is certainly the least important), it doesn’t include obscurities like the ancestries of Eurydice and Berenice, and it doesn’t have any actual genealogical errors. Its deficiencies are comparatively minor. Until I or someone with access to the source file gets around to fixing it, it is clearly the better starting point. -- --Chris Bennett 20:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] New section "other members of the dynasty"
To Carcharoth: It's not clear why this section is a good idea, since you haven't actually said anything about any of these people.
If it's just meant to be a set of cross-links, what are the selection criteria? E.g. why Apion but not Magas, also king of Cyrene, or Ptolemy, king of Cyprus? Why Keraunos king of Macedon but not his brother Meleager, also king of Macedon? Why not Ptolemy the Son? Why Ptolemy Philadephus but not Alexander Helios or Cleopatra Selene?
--Chris Bennett 02:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oops. That section was a hangover from when I was looking for somewhere to put the list I had made of other members of the Ptolemaic dynasty who were not rulers but were named Ptolemy. It kind of spun off from the Ptolemy (disambiguation) thing before the Ptolemy (name) article was created. The criteria were (a) named Ptolemy and (b) not a ruler of Egypt. You are absolutely correct that the section should either be dropped as not very relevant, or expanded to include the other (known) members of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Personally, I think it would be nice to have a section about what the other, non-ruling, members of the dynasty got up to in and outside Egypt. It gives the dynasty a bit of context within the area and history of the times. Carcharoth 14:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lagids
I noted that Lagid and Lagids redirect to this page. I am puzzled with the origin of the name Lagid to refer to this dinasty? -- Pichote 11:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
