Talk:Pterosaur

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Contents 1 Flight vs. gliding 2 So what? 3 Common Name 4 "Rhamphorhynchoidae" 5 Ground movement 6 Megafinger? 7 Proposed merge 8 Reptiles versus Dinosaurs 9 Peters 10 Sea going colony-rock strata 11 Pop culture article redirected here 12 Modern sighting of the hoax 13 Nub thing 14 11-09-2001 Pterosaur seen nearby the W.T.C 15 The term "dinosaur" is properly restricted to a certain group of terrestrial reptiles? 16 section cut from origins 17 The largest flying animals to have ever existed?

[edit] Flight vs. gliding

hi i was doing homework and this was very useful —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.248.108 (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I would very much like to see some argumentation on the flight vs. gliding issue. What are the reasons for believing one or the other? SpectrumDT 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Most research suggests that pterosaurs employed soaring flight with occasional powered flapping, much like modern seabirds. The authors of Hazlehhurst and Rayner 1992 calculated pterosaurs wing loading, glide angle, and stall speed, finding these to be almost identical to an albatross. Most newer research by people like Jim Cunningham and David Unwin suggests that even the largest pterosaurs could achieve powered flight equievelnt to or better than that of many birds. I see there's not much on this issue in the article, but I think I'll wait and see if anyone with better familiarity with the relevent sources comes along before I try to write up a lame summary. Dinoguy2 00:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Well there's still nothing about their ability to fly in this article. Can you add something about it? Their ability to fly is one of their most important characteristics, not to mention defining. There should be more information on this. 64.236.121.129 (talk) 15:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, ancient post! I don't even remember where I found those sources, maybe in Unwin's The Pterosaurs which I don't have here at the moment. Can anybody pitch in? I agree a flight section would be pretty important... Dinoguy2 (talk) 21:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So what?

The article says, "The pterosaurs' flocculi occupied 7.5 per cent of the animals' total brain mass, more than in any other vertebrate." So? What does it mean? More agile in flight? Less stable? More stewardi? Be clear. Not all readers are pterosaur (or bird) experts... Trekphiler 15:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Common Name

(Copying this here from pterodactyl since I'm not sure how many people watch that page). According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life, In cases where there is a formal common name (e.g. birds), or when common names are well-known and reasonably unique, they should be used for article titles. Scientific names should be used otherwise. Under this guideline, Pterodactyl should probably be the title for the article currently titled Pterosauria. However, I know "pterodactyl" can variously refer any pterosaur, any pterodactyloid, or Pterodactylus itself. So... what say you?Dinoguy2 19:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Talking to people genarllay about what I do, and what I specialise in, most people don't know what either means. Of those that do, they are split about 50/50 on pterodactyl/pterosaur. Also, as you note "pterodactyl" is quite ambiguous. - John.Conway 00:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

At the moment Pterodactyl is a useless collection of pop culture trivia. How about at least making it a redirect?Dinoguy2 01:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I'd like to see the main redirect go here (where the phrase has it's original meaning). - Kevingarcia 06:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Side-question, why not link pterodactyl directly to Pterodactylus? I understand that the former is used more often in pop culture, but isn't it just a shortened nickname for the latter? Like the common usage of "Raptor" instead of Velociraptor but also used to discribe all Dromaesauridae.-Kevingarcia 07:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, isn't "Pterodactyl" reserved for Pterodactylus?

This string appears to be reviving - I would opt for a proper merge, so that the bit of useful stuff in Pterodactyl is not lost, then making Pterodactyl a 'redirect' to Pterodactylus (or vice versa), with a disambiguation page, to tease out some of the other stuff. - Ballista 05:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Rhamphorhynchoidae"

"Rhamphorhynchoidae" is a paraphyletic group in every current Pterosaur phylogeny, and thus should have quotes around it's name. This is nitpicking, I know, but it shows that it is not a natural clad, and just a grouping made by people, not nature.

Noting that it's paraphyletic in the text would be better, since quotation marks usually mean a clade is unofficial or unpublished, and we don't want to create confusion.Dinoguy2 20:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that perhaps we should abandon it. It doesn't neaten things up much. We can leave the rhamphorhychoid families suborderless. John.Conway 10:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ground movement

It is interesting to see that some of the species shows adaptations to move around onm the ground. Who knows, maybe there even were some species living on isolated islands that had lost the power to fly completely? If quadruped (or bipedal) species with no wings had evolved, shrunk down to the size of rodents (Pterosaur seems to have been warm blooded and covered with fur) and then survived what killed the dinosaurs, who knows what the terrestrial vertebrate fauna would have looked today?

All pterosaur species would have had some method of getting around on the grond, I hope... they had to land sometime! (If only rodent-sized pteros had survived I doubt todays fauna would be much different though, aside from the added presence of tiny ground-dwelling furry reptiles, and maybe some mammals specialized for eating them.)Dinoguy2 14:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, from what I have heard, not all bats are able to take off from the ground, they have to start somewhere higher up. But of course some pterosaurs would have been able to move on the ground. What I meant was moving without difficulties, like vampire bats or birds. It would really be exiting if someone had found a fossile of a species with useless wings and strong legs and arms. If a small ground-dwelling pterosaur had survived, there is no reason why it shouldn't grow later. When the dinosaurs went exctint about 65 million years ago, all the mammals left varied in size from small shrews and no bigger than a cat. At least that's what I have heard. Most of them had probably rodent size. In a world without dinosaurs and only small vertebrates around, much could have happened in 65 million years. Just too bad we well never know.

Just a comment: "rodent sized". What about the capybara? Dora Nichov 12:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that many people have heard of the capybara, and it is by far the largest rodent. It also does not look very rodent-ish so it wouldn't come to mind when people think of rodents. 122.105.220.129 (talk) 07:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Megafinger?

The National Geographic Channel special "Sky Monsters" continually refers to the large wing-supporting digit as a "megafinger." Is this a common paleontological term, or a catchy phrase used by the producers? If it is a common term, it should be included in this article (and perhaps given its own entry, since it is such an important aspect of pterosaur flight). - Kevingarcia 06:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That show was the first time I'd heard it. I doubt it'll gain the same respect as thagomizer unless Unwin, Padian, Cunningham or Conway start using it themselves ("wing finger" is much more common, and is probably better since it's a direct translation of "pterodactyl").Dinoguy2 13:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Documentary licence. I've never heard a pterosaur worker use it. John.Conway 15:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

I disagree with the proposed merge of List of pterosaur classifications into Pterosaur. The list is just that, a list of already lengthy classification scemes, that would take up an enormous amount of room in the main article with little good reason. Pterosaur classification is already well summarized in the main article.Dinoguy2 18:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you think maybe the other article should be deleted? The article was just created today, and I added the tag during a recent changes patrol.--DCAnderson 18:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I only created that article to clean up the List of pterosaurs proper in a manner similar to List of dinosaurs, having in mind to not get rid of the info that was already there. Since for dinosaurs there is a List of dinosaur classifications I thought not much of it. However I'll be sure to gather the necessary info on the subject and fill in the article with a few paragraphs pertaining to it. I won't be too distraught if the list of pterosaur classifications gets deleted, either ;-) And I disagree with the merge. Dracontes 14:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree the merge. I fear putting so much classification stuff in the general article would unbalance it. It is, however, important information for those with that specialist interest or need. It is an easy subject area to have separate. Please don't delete. Ballista 02:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Obviously there should neither be a merge nor a deletion. And thank you Dracontes for the list. It is very useful :o).--MWAK 08:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reptiles versus Dinosaurs

I'd say that many people would mistakenly consider pterosaurs to be a type of flying dinosaur rather than a winged reptile (and I'm talking about folk belief rather than scientific opinion here and also acknowledging that many non-scientists also consider all dinosaurs to be reptiles to begin with). Maybe the article could at some point mention the reasons why they are considered reptiles rather than dinosaurs and the differences between the two groups to clarify this? Reynardthefox 07:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure of the amount of study done on pterosaurs, but have never heard they arnt reptiles, just like Mesosaurs and pleiosaurs. They still could be reptiles like bats are mammals, but this is confusing. We need some information before we include it to see its worth. Enlil Ninlil 07:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Pterosaurs and dinosaurs are both considered reptiles by the vast majority of scientists working in this area The reason pterosaurs aren't thought to be dinosaurs is that they are thought to fall outside the dinosaur clade, not because of any particular anatomical characteristics. The characteristics that lead to this conclusion are generally small, changeable, uninteresting for the non-specialist, and certainly don't define either group.

Perhaps there could be more on pterosaur origins, and why that means they are not dinosaurs... but pterosaur origins are notoriously hazy. John.Conway 23:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

They are reptiles, but they aren't dinosaurs. Dora Nichov 09:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peters

I hate to say it, but using Peters as a source to make significant changes to this article is like using Feduccia as a major source on Sinosauropteryx. I don't mind his fairly radical ideas being mentioned, but they are not accepted, as far as I know, by really any other researchers in this field. It doesn't help that a majority of his discoveries are made using Photoshop and images he downloaded from the internet.Dinoguy2 01:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, his ideas are not the conventional mainstream scientific view . John.Conway 22:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sea going colony-rock strata

And what is the Named-strata, about 2-4 ft thick in the S. American Andes, that is the fossil layer of sea-going pterosaurs, in their nesting colony? (Obviously over some length of time)... (from out in the SonoranDesert ofArizona) ..-Mmcannis 07:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop culture article redirected here

I'm not going to complain about the loss of that abomination of an article... but, it was the "net" underneath this article for catching all the irrelevent pop culture edits. With it gone and directed here, I think we need to establish a pretty strict relevence policy about what kind of pop culture references are let through. In fact, I think the way it's phrased now pretty much covers everything we need, and any inevitable additions of such-and-such pterosaur in Transformers or Jurassic Park or whatever should be reverted on sight. If not, the pop culture article needs to be brought back as a wastebin for that stuff. Dinoguy2 13:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern sighting of the hoax

I remember reading the "living pterodactyl" hoax reported as fact in the Milwaukee Journal, in 1977 or 1978. It appeared in the Green Sheet, a 4-page section of the paper, printed on green paper, which contained the comics and "weird news" stories. Metageek 20:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I attempted to search the Milwaukee Journal's archives ([1]); but, at present, they go back only to 1990. They also don't contain any wire service articles, so the hoax might not be listed even if/when the archives go back to 1977. Metageek 14:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nub thing

What is that thing on the backs of their heads exactly?

Usually a bony crest, but some had nonbony extensions. J. Spencer 15:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 11-09-2001 Pterosaur seen nearby the W.T.C

Sources: http://www.s8int.com/eyewit22.html http://www.911hoax.com/gBirds3.asp?intPage=50&PageNum=50 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.113.196 (talk) 23:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope that site is intnded as some kind of twisted joke... you don't have to be from the NYC area to know that's what the city folk call a "pigeon"... Dinoguy2 01:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The term "dinosaur" is properly restricted to a certain group of terrestrial reptiles?

Quoted from the top of the article. (The question mark being added by myself.) I thought it was generally accepted that dinosaurs were not reptiles at all. (Isn't the current accepted belief that they were related to birds? I admit I am no paleontologist.) Why does this article still promote the antiquated notion that they are reptiles?

24.225.79.219 06:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No, they're still reptiles. In fact, in Phylogenetic nomenclature, so are birds. Dinoguy2 08:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] section cut from origins

I cut out a section of rewritten text and reintroduced older but still flawed material. The reason I did so was because pterosaur origins and evolution of flight need a detailed analysis (heck, probably an article) that wasn't being served by suddenly turning one-sided, with included details of unspecified importance. Yes, I know who added the material, and no, I don't particularly care, except that the article suddenly sounded as if everything was settled; I'd be happy to have it included in a longer, more nuanced discussion of thought on pterosaurs, instead of seeming to be the only position. Anyway, enough sermon. Here's the cut material for future reference:

A paper written in 2000 ^[1] provided four pterosaur-sized taxa with a similar ankle structure that had long fingers and thin, bony tails, among other characteristics, including that remarkable folding lateral toe that early pterosaurs have.

They were once thought to have evolved flight from some manner other than the 'tree-down' route possibly taken by birds, because pterosaurs demonstrated no adaptations useful for tree living. But the gliders Sharovipteryx and Longisquama settled that problem. Most scenarios have pterosaurs evolving from long-legged, ground-running ancestors like Scleromochlus (a less likely scenario) or Sharovipteryx. Only the latter had webs of skin from long hind legs to their bodies or tails. Since the exotic show-off Longisquama had such ornate decorations and is the closest known relative of pterosaurs, we can presume that pterosaur wings were extra-added attractions that could be flapped for added excitement during elaborate mating rituals.^[2]

J. Spencer 22:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems I see immediately is someone citing his or her own work. This always sets alarm bells off in my head. I don't yet see a problem with most of the above passage, except for "They were once thought to have evolved flight from some manner other than the 'tree-down' route possibly taken by birds, because pterosaurs demonstrated no adaptations useful for tree living. But the gliders Sharovipteryx and Longisquama settled that problem." (Settled that problem seems POV) and "we can presume that pterosaur wings were extra-added attractions that could be flapped for added excitement during elaborate mating rituals." (even with a reference, that's POV). Perhaps DP will come here and discuss these additions to the article. I think it would be great to have a variety of theories presented in the section. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. While I don't mind DP's theories being cited, he is basically a minority of one on most issues of classification (and basic anatomy, and reproduction...), and we need to consider giving proportionate weight to these ideas. Dinoguy2 01:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Note this exciting new discovery. I've briefly mentioned it in the text but someone who knows something about vertebrates may want to have a scan and put pertinent points into the article. I can provide a copy of the full text to anyone interested - just e-mail me. Verisimilus T 14:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The largest flying animals to have ever existed?

I'm pretty sure these animals are the largest flying animals to have ever existed. Shouldn't we add this to the article? 64.236.121.129 (talk) 15:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Added a mention to the intro. Dinoguy2 (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)