Talk:Psychotherapy

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[edit] Distinguishing between therapy, counseling, coaching and mentoring

Therapy is usually seen as being applied to mental health or diagnosable psychiatric issues. Counselling to non-psychiatric issues, but still things that might create emotional reactions. Coaching is aimed at a goal or achieving something. Mentoring is aimed at the personal progress of a person toward some sort of status, and overall personal achievement. -- I think I'd get good marks on the exam with this explanation, but I don't know if I could find the reference from the class any more.... 03:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fremte (talk • contribs)

Counseling, at least, has lost much of this distinction, although initially I think what much of you said was true and is true to certain forms of counseling, like vocational counseling and the like. Nowadays, licensed counselors are master level clinicians, often working with psychiatric issues such as in hospitals and agencies. In general, wikipedia needs to be updated to speak to this blurring of the lines. It seems to me that clinical psychologists often spend much of their time doing testing assessments, and psychaitrists are concerned with prescribing drugs. leontes (talk) 13:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The only thing I have found so far is on this page: http://www.apa.org/governance/CPM/chapter10b.html , under the heading 2007 it talks about terminology, second last topic on the page. This does not quite do the job. Fremte (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Searching for and clicking on Counseling in wikipedia redirects to Psychotherapy - these can be very different modalities though they may exist side by side in the minds of some clients and practitioners. For example, Humanistic psychology lists them side by side in section 3. Contrast this with the article at Counseling psychology, which disitnguishes clearly between a similar distinction in Psychology betweencounseling and clinical psychology. But no such clarification occurs within or between the re-direct of counseling to psychotherapy.

There are similar confusions brought about by marriage guidance being re-directed to relationship counseling. These are dissimilar when one is provided in a religious context and that provided without religious affiliation. Likewise couples therapy re-directed to relationship counseling makes little sense without a distinction been drawn between therapy and counseling.

The existence of marriage guidance counsellor as an article about the Monty Python skit is funny but not informative.

On the counselling page, if you click on Marriage and Family counseling you are re-directed to family therapy - the same confusion between counseling and therapy.

Relationship coaching is not an article on its own but it is refered to in section 4 of life coaching. Dating coach used to redirects to personal coaching and these two are related but different and properly belong in the main coaching article. Intimacy coach/ing and marital coach/ing clearly will point to a potential boundary blurring between therapy, counseling and coaching. With coaching increasing its reach to intimate relationships and with the addition of say, marriage mentoring the possibilities for turf wars are limitless.

I have also started this discussion briefly on Talk:Relationship_counseling.--Ziji 23:53, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

These are good points that somehow need addressing so that the various related pages are consistent, organized to avoid overlap or ambiguity as much as possible, and in line with the most common usage and practice. There's also an issue with overlap between clinical psychology and this page, in terms of psychotherapy content. I've just added some images to here that were (and still are also) on that page. I guess this page needs a section on differences between psychotherapy and counseling/coaching etc EverSince 19:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello this is a very important issue. I think distinguishing the various types is imortant. Perhaps there is a good typology out there. I'll do some research on this. Devonian Strata 08:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Devonian - have you found a typology?-- Ziji  (talk)  12:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't Therapist redirect to Therapy rather than Psychotherapy? Usage of the term in the UK is certainly not confined to persons with any medical or scientific qualification Mighty Antar 01:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Body Psychotherapy

I added Body Psychotherapy to the list of main systems of psychotherapy in the article's introduction section, however, this was reverted by another editor who didn't appreciate this as being a major field. I can only point to that article which does in fact list a considerable number of subordinate schools. So I move that this main direction should be re-included in that list, especially as body psychotherapy otherwise would go completely unmentioned in this article, and that would be an omission which I don't see how can be justified. __meco 12:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Other considerable 'subordinate schools' being present in this article does not justify the addition of anything else - if you don't think the others belong, then remove them as you see fit. Do you have any references for Body Psychotherapy that might suggest it is a main school of thought in psychotherapy? JoeSmack Talk 13:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
References: you could start with Pierre Janet, move on to Wilhelm Reich and David Boadella, Ida Pauline Rolf and Jon Kabat-Zinn: [1] [2]. [3] and then go on to the Body Psychotherapy article and take your pick - personally I would take Ron Kurtz and Gerda Boyesen but her page too needs improvement - english citations would help in research. The body psychotherapy page is in need of urgent attention, Rolf and Kabat Zinn were not included, some linked names do not link to an article on the named person eg Ron Kurtz. I have added the mind-body interventions template and put the body psychotherapy page in that template, but much more needs to be done to improve e.g. citations for one. Doing that will increase the authority of a major field position, with which I agree. My earlier coments about distinguishing between counselling and therapy etc also apply between body psychotherapies if you consider the list in the interventions template. Even within a well defined body orientated practice, there are divisions e.g. that in Hakomi between body centred, somatic pychotherapy and experiential psychotherapy. The European Association of Body Psychotherpay [4] is an excellent source to build the case, as is the American Assoc [5]
To widen the authority of the field I suggest going into Alice Miller's work for starters, eg her recent book '[6]', wherein this quote: Ultimately the body will rebel. Even if it can be temporarily pacified with the help of drugs, cigarettes or medicine, it usually has the last word because it is quicker to see through self-deception than the mind. We may ignore or deride the messages of the body, but is rebellion demands to be heeded because its language is the authentic expression of our true selves and of the strength of our vitality.
For a radical bend in the story you could go back to Freud's interest in cocaine (which began on April 24, 1884 [7] and his interest in the nasal reflex neurosis based relationship with Fleiss (who believed that the nose was the centre of all human illness)[8]. [9]. I haven't the time to pursue this any further at the moment, but I will come back to it after I deal with the problems at pre- and peri-natal psychology where the body begins its journey
References
  1. ^ Rolf IP, 1979. Rolfing: Reestablishing the Natural Alignment and Structural Integration of the Human Body for Vitality and Well-Being. Healing Arts Press. (Book)
  2. ^ Boadella, David. Wilhelm Reich, The Evolution Of His Work, Henry Regnery, Chicago, 1973
  3. ^ Boadella, David. (Ed.): In The Wake Of Reich, Coventure, London, 1976. Aspden, H (2001)
  4. ^ EABP [1]
  5. ^ USABP [2]
  6. ^ Miller A. 'The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effect of Cruel Parenting' W. W. Norton & Company (May 2, 2005) ISBN-10: 0393060659 ISBN-13: 978-0393060652
  7. ^ Freud and cocaine: [3]
  8. ^ Louis Breger. Freud: darkness in the midst of vision. John Wiley & Sons, 2000
  9. ^ Dominic Streatfeild. Cocaine: An unauthorized biography. Dunne Books, June 2002
--Ziji 22:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it seems like this is all appropriate on the body psyschology page, and the discussion should primarily be held there and possibly moved there as the page is in need of expansion, it seems to be off topic on this page, as it goes into great detail. As I understand it, body psychology is not generally considered to be a main system of psychotherapy. I am still unclear how to add it to the specific schools and approaches part of the page. The person who does should focus on a short paragraph on what is it that makes body psychology different from the other approaches. I think possibly "embodied" work, that includes spiritual psychotherapy and other forms of transpersonal or embodied approaches might be an appropraite addition. leontes 05:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a list of psychotherapies which I think is appropriate to mention Body psychotherapy and spiritual, etc. I think the big ones however are the only ones that should be touched on here, ones that spawned like a billion others - you don't want to go on and on about a specific model of a specific year of a kind of Mustang on Ford's article, you want that on it's own article (i.e. I agree with Leontes). You also might notice Ford's article has a link to list of Ford vehicles. :) JoeSmack Talk 06:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I will copy this across to body psychotherapy-- Ziji  (talk)  00:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I do agree with Leontes that Ziji's deep-dive into the specificities of the Body psychotheraputic field is more confusing than light-shedding on the issue of whether, or rather how, this system should be presented in this article. I find Leontes' suggestion that maybe a section with perceived like-minded schools could be described and related to more mainstream psychotherapeutic directions (does labeling thusly make sense?) would be a good idea. However, I do think that a mention in the introductory section as a main system of psychotherapy is warranted at least to the extent that Psychodynamics is afforded such prominent mention. I seem to have set off a commotion centering on that particular article that I think might have some bearing on the current article. Suffice to mention the professional bodies regulating the system of Body psychotherapy both in the US and in Europe, as well as professional journals, whereas nothing can be shown for as it comes to Psychodynamics. In fact, everything about Psychodynamics here seems vague to me and it appears to be a rather nondesprict umbrella term which is not clearly distinguisable from Psychoanalysis proper. __meco 21:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Psychodynamics, as I understand it, not withstanding the strange wikipedia article regarding it that is desperate need of attention, is an umbrella term for all systems of psychotherapy that ancestorial roots directly come from psychoanalysis. Very few practicioners actually use straight psychoanalysis Many current counselors and psychotherapists use psychodynamic techniques, including object relations, speaking about ones past in relation to the now and as such it is something that is appropriate to the main system of psychotherapy. It can be distinguished by other approaches like humanist, CBT and systems theory. Brief therapy doesn't really feel like it fits there, perhaps. Body Psychology doesn't as, even though it's established, like other forms of psychotherapy it remains on the fringes. Perhaps expressive therapy could be listed here, even though that a tad bit on the fringes, as body psychology could be seen an offshoot of dance/movement therapy, perhaps. I do agree that we need a reason why each mentioned systems is there. leontes 21:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because 'Psychodynamics shouldn't be mentioned and is' doesn't mean Body Psychotherapy should. Wikipedia doesn't play the relativism game, otherwise everything's inclusion or exclusion is just an association away. Please keep it to Body Psychotherapy's merits or demerits for if Body Psychotherapy stays or goes. (This all kind of sounds like I'm pissed or something, but I'm not, fyi :) ) JoeSmack Talk 21:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Having begun to peruse the web sites of the US and European associations of Body Psychotherapy respectively, I have at least found the following quotes from both web sites' introductory articles about Body Psychotherapy:
"...we consider that we hold a not-to-be-neglected position as one of the 10 major streams of psychotherapy today, with at least 20 sub-divisions." (US site, written 1997, the US association was established in 1996)
"Body-Psychotherapy is a distinct branch of psychotherapy, well within the main body of psychotherapy, which has a long history and a body of literature and knowledge based upon a sound theoretical position." (European site)
I am not writing this to press for inclusion as a major system, simply for reference when it comes to expanding the article. __meco 18:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Beware of self publications! 'We are great' style stuff, you know? ;) JoeSmack Talk 19:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pruning condoned

User:Voice of All has removed more than 5,000 bytes of text and also done some rearranging of other text. I find this edit to constitute a significant improvement of the article. __meco 09:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Section - Analysis of Comments

The text [4] has been added and removed twice, by user Shrp2edgeswrd. As it stands, it clearly has POV issues, and the majority is unsourced (with the exception of the partial reference at the end). But in particular, it seems to consist of a commentary on the previous section of the article. In some ways I agree with the points raised, but obviously adding a contradictory commentary to the end isn't the way to resolve the problems. I think the "Client views and concerns" section has original research or at least un-sourced claims (and I tagged it as such a while back), and needs an overhaul. It needs to be referenced or deleted, and I suspect it's not going to stand up as NPOV and should go. Anyone fancy having a go at this? Cheers, Eve 21:33, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it was unnecessary to remove this text. I think it simply needs to be re-written and that that will take care of most of the objections raised. I have, by the way, added the {{weasel}} template to this whole section, and I do believe that quite a few statements should be removed if they don't become sourced very soon. In a way that is a petty, because I find much of it to be likely representations of actual positions. But in the primary interest of making a reliable encyclopedia we cannot have statements beginning with "experts say..." or "research has shown..." with no attribution of source. __meco 06:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Meco makes a good point. Statements need to have sources which meet the standard of being Wikipedia:Verifiability, which isn't necessarily a very high hurtle to overcome here. JohnsonRon 16:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have some sources that add some support to this but don't have time right now to add - started an outline-ish edit of this section. I think the section should be retitiled - the material in it has important points, but are more general concerns regarding bad psychotherapy (to use a very general term). --Murmur74 01:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing "Client views and concerns"

I have removed the text below. It is largely unsourced opinions and original research, much of it sounding like propaganda. Some statements are outright false, such as "Most research suggests that almost as many people (50% as opposed to 65%) feel helped by sitting in a room talking to someone generally as do when sitting in a room talking to someone who is deliberately 'doing therapy'." Really? Most research says this? Anyway, I think this section should be flushed where it belongs, but I put it here in case anyone wants to try finding some credible sources and putting it back. Ash(talk) 15:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

==Client views and concerns== <P> {{Original research|section|date=March 2007}}<P> {{weasel}}<P> Therapy, as with other treatment, can at times have [[iatrogenic]] effects, where problems are caused via the treatment. {{Fact|date=June 2007}} Termed 'negative outcome' by Strupp and colleagues{{Fact|date=May 2007}}, one study found that therapists with a negative self-image, or [[introject]], who adhere closely to a manualized treatment are at greater risk for negative outcomes with the people they treat {{Fact|date=May 2007}}. <P> ====Closeness to the therapist==== <P> First, many clients experience very strong emotions towards their therapists. Sometimes, these are feelings of obsession, love, and/or sexual attraction (even where this goes against the client’s normal sexuality). This can happen to anyone, including clients who are in extremely happy, loving, stable relationships with their partners, and people who are not normally highly emotional. {{Fact|date=June 2007}} <P> Clients are not usually forewarned about this, but it is common. Some schools of therapy refer to it as 'transference' and believe it to be emotions that are "transferred" from another person in the client's life (for example, a parent). Other schools do not see it in this way. Some schools deliberately encourage these feelings because they are seen as a key to the client 'working through' emotional issues. <P> These emotions can be overpowering and have a huge effect upon the client's life. His or her other relationships can suffer. He or she can find it impossible to function normally and live for the hour per week that he or she spends with the therapist. Clients have been known to be so overwhelmed by such feelings that they experience panic attacks, breakdowns, severe depression and other traumatic effects, both during the therapy and after it has ended. The feelings can be brief but can also persist for years. {{Fact|date=May 2007}} <P> Therapists say that it is only in unusual cases that the feelings become that strong. They also say that staying in therapy is the best way to deal with them, and that 'working through' the feelings usually causes them to subside. But experts are now saying that it is much more common than the therapy world is prepared to admit (or indeed knows – some clients go through all that pain without telling their therapist). It is also a phenomenon which is not really understood, and if the feelings do become unmanageable, there is little or nothing in the therapist's training to help. {{Fact|date=June 2007}} <P> ====Dependency on therapist==== <P> Similarly, clients often become extremely dependent upon their therapist. Clients can literally feel unable to make simple decisions without talking things through with the therapist. Some clients find that life outside of the therapy room feels insignificant and meaningless. This can have a devastating and humiliating effect on the client’s personal, social and working life. Again, clients are not usually forewarned of this possibility, and little is known about how to prevent it or to curtail it when it happens. {{Fact|date=May 2007}} <P> The client’s handle on reality can be severely affected by therapy. Some forms can encourage clients to question themselves to such an extent that they can lose a clear sense of identity, self-belief and confidence in their own judgement. Many people believe that there is a brainwashing element to therapy, sometimes even resembling a cult, and that this can override clients' normal judgement and self-sufficiency. <P> Many clients, former clients, [[sociologist]]s and social commentators have warned that therapy can convince clients that their perfectly normal human feelings and behaviours are malfunctions – signs of mental ill health, instability or 'disordered personality'. Believing oneself to be ill or not functioning adequately can be extremely upsetting, and can even become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It also seems that therapy’s focus on the past, and/or negative experiences, and/or on the client’s own internal world can be most unhelpful for some clients, because it surrounds them in despair when what they need might be to put the past behind them, look at positives or focus outwards. <P> ====Effectiveness==== <P> Most research suggests that almost as many people (50% as opposed to 65%) feel helped by sitting in a room talking to someone generally as do when sitting in a room talking to someone who is deliberately 'doing therapy'. {{Fact|date=May 2007}}


[edit] DDP

I have removed Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy from this page. This little known therapy has been extensively advertised on Wiki as evidence based, sometimes the only evidence based treatment for a variety of disorders affecting attachment. (Theraplay, also little known and not evidence based has also been advertised in this way.) A range of attachment articles including attachment therapy are currently before ArbCom. In the course of ArbCom it has transpired that of the 6 users promoting DDP and Theraplay and controlling these pages, User:DPeterson, User:RalphLender, User:JonesRD, User:SamDavidson, User:JohnsonRon, and User:MarkWood, the latter four are definitely socks and have been blocked, and the other two have been blocked for one year. The attachment related pages are in the course of being rewritten. Fainites barley 20:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Update - User:RalphLender has been blocked indef. as a sockpuppet and User:DPeterson has been blocked for one year by ArbCom. Fainites barley 18:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hypno-psychotherapy merge proposal

This section is way too long, I think it would be good for it to have its own article - and I think it does already: Hypnotherapy. Do people agree that these are the same thing? If so, we need to merge the content from this section into that article, and write a short summary bit to replace it here. If they are not the same thing, then I believe a new article needs to be created. Opinions? Steve CarlsonTalk 06:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Not an expert, but they sound the same to me. I say go for it. Eve (talk) 11:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Its an interesting and well written essay but its out of place here. I agree this article needs a short summary of the current practice of psychotherapy within clinical hypnosis/hypnotherapy. I wouldn't so much merge as transfer the whole essay into Hypnotherapy and then put a different summary here. This page is more a sort of round up of all the different therapies. Fainites barley 19:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

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