Talk:Psychopathy
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[edit] Psychopathy and handedness
In a separate study, A. R. Mayer and D. S. Kosson investmnmnmigated the hand preferences of 420 adult male inmates in a county jail. "Psychopaths reported reduced right-hand dominance," they report, "which cannot be accounted for by differences in age, intelligence, or race." They conclude that their data suggest "anomalous cerebral asymmetry" in psychopathic offenders
n one of the new studies, A. F. Bogaert analyzed a database of more than 8,000 men compiled by the Kinsey Institute, and found that criminals in general and sex offenders in particular showed a significantly higher rate of left-handedness or ambidexterity than did non-offenders. While there was some evidence that handedness was linked to poor school performance in the criminal group, Bogaert says, "education was unrelated to the handedness/pedophilia relationship."
The criminal mentally disturbed (including psychopaths) and quite a number of other .reported .. left-handedness, robust physique, precocious sexual development, ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.93.250 (talk) 09:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
is this actually true do psychopathy's report reduce right hand dominace —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.93.250 (talk) 09:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, whether it is true or not is beside the point. We lefties are indeed sinister but only just so. It is my firm conviction that psychopaths are by and large right handed (as are any other unsavory deviant group). Therefore I move we suppress this article and its distorted depiction of "the truth."--NeantHumain (talk) 02:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Conduct Disorder
The antisocial persinality disorder say there must be a diagnosis of a conduct disorder before the age of 15 but psychopathy does'nt need a conduct disorder. Carlpanzram666 (talk) 20:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Conduct disorder per se isn't a requirement for psychopathy, but the PCL–R contains 'early behavioral problems' and juvenile delinquency as two items. Psychopathic attitudes and antisocial behavior don't come out of the blue when a person becomes an adult (unless they had some brain injury).--NeantHumain (talk) 04:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Explaining why mental illnesses are so difficult to diagnose precisely
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- Carl, the deal is this -- the prior DSM (III) described psychopaths to match what has been described in the past (Clerkley) and currently (Hare, et al)... AsPD is not a description of typical traits and behaviors like the other PDs do - it is an artificial construct based upon statistical analyses of incarcerated (imprisoned) populations --- and so you have lower IQs, the 'juvenile delinquency', overt criminal behaviors that got them arrested and sent to prison. It TOTALLY overlooks and eliminates the Snakes in Suits, the intelligent psychopaths that have no empathy (are neurologically INCAPABLE of empathy - are minus human inhibitory wiring/firing), who treat people as things, objects and who are only out for themselves).
-
- Some people (the typical layman) think that the DSM-IV is some sort of damned bible - a uniquely objective 'last on the subject, universally accepted as the Holy Grail of wisdom'... and it ISN'T. The DSM is 15 years out of date. It was hammered together by a group of psychiatrists who TRIED to toss out things that were no longer PA (politically correct - like homosexuality and PDs considered anti-female and under attack by feminists), tossed out a few more like masochistic & sadistic PDs.
-
- The 'CURRENT' PD has been promised as on the brink of publication for at least 6 years now, but is only now in the second year of being exposed to a larger group of non-primary editors for THEIR feedback and input. The DSM is and always has been 'a work in progress' and THIS, the 'DSM V' has, as one of its problems, the fact that so much research concerning the actual brain differences that are the same and/or different from other disorders - research that HAS to be considered. And this is a big part of the reason for the continual putting off of the projected release date.
-
- In the past, all psychiatrists had was lists of behaviors and traits that were tossed into various piles of 'what usually are found together' or 'are OFTEN found together' and labels were put on those piles. Those piles were so vague and random, that anyone can notice that out of 10-15 'traits and behaviors', that generally as few as 5-7 are considered 'necessary' for the 'diagnosis' to apply to a particular person -- which is why two persons having 'NPD' are so different as to be totally impossible to identify as being 'identical'.
-
- Psychiatry has slowly been climbing out of the depths of the hole of 'we have nothing but psycho-dynamic theories to explain human differences' into the steady climb of brain studies that detect different levels of electrical activity, different quantities of blood flow, differing thicknesses of gray matter, more rapid head circumference growth in early childhood, reduced size/activity (and recovery of size and activity) of the frontal lobes, the hipposcampus, the amygdala, thalamus and other vital structures and activities of the limbic system. The brain is like the ocean - we are still totally ignorant of most of it.
-
- So don't get all twisted up in the DSM and focus on HARD SCIENCE. We don't understand everything and the DSM-VI is going to be different because psychiatry is an evolving science - much as the science of the creation and nature of the universe is an evolving science. The DSM is interesting as history, but not to be elevated into prominence and 'the be all and end all' except for the insurance companies who decide how WHICH 'diagnoses' are just 'in the mind' and therefore not worthy of being treated (in the sense of being paid for), not to mention many psychiatric diagnoses are not considered 'real illnesses' and thus are severely limited as to how many patient visits are allowed within a given 12 month period.
-
- You see, the DSM began as a way of psychiatrists and psychologists to kinda recognize enough vague similiarities to generally diagnose a patient (ie, toss him in one pile or another), but which is still so confusing and increasingly disregarded that a given patient can go to 3-4 or more mental health workers and walk out with 3-4 or more completely different diagnoses, either a single one or a multiple thereof.
-
- And since diagoses are SUPPOSED to dictate treatment, we have evolved into where treatment OUTCOMES are more likely to eventually help mental health professionals get a somewhat stronger grasp of what the patient really has in terms of biochemistry, electroactivity and structural differences within their skull. Treatment results are also not hard science, but they do help.
-
- Psychiatric diagnoses are not currently like diabetes, liver cancer, renal failure or 98% (okay, that's a guess) of human illnesses. For that matter, when the DSM-IV came out, it was not even recognized for that dogs and monkeys, and horses are subject to anxiety, depression and various other neuroses, anxiety disorders, et al. But for another matter, it has been recognized for CENTURIES that behaviors and personality traits ARE INHERITED by those who bred them. But since we don't consider human beings subject to selective breeding, it will probably be a few more decades before genetic inheritance of DNA is a vital component that will help explain why people reared under seemingly identical conditions will turn out completely differently - some of them 'normal' and some of them diagnosed with mental illnesses that are provably related to childhood abuse. Spotted Owl (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] psychopaths brain
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=oaTfdKYbudk
Provides an mri of pschopaths a shocking thrush about psychopaths brain —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.93.250 (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Yet more subtypes of psychopath
I've been reading up some more on psychopathy, and I've stumbled upon even more subtypes than the classic primary/secondary distinction. Hervé distinguishes four subtypes based on relative prominence of psychopathic traits as measured in the Three-Factor Model of the PCL–R: prototypical, or classic, psychopaths (high on all three factors), explosive psychopaths (high on deficient affective experience and impulsivity/antisocial lifestyle), manipulative psychopaths (high on deficient affective experience and arrogant and exploitative interpersonal style), and pseudopsychopaths (or sociopaths), who are high on the impulsive/antisocial lifestyle and possibly the arrogant and exploitative interpersonal style but lacking the emotional deficits of the true psychopath. Theodore Millon subclassifies psychopaths based on their comorbidity with other personality disorders. We need to explore these theories more.--NeantHumain (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- That could be a good idea and get editors/readers thinking critically. Discussing the term and it varying subclasses proposed by different researchers could reduce that tendency in the article to reify the term. It is just a word after all. This article, to my understanding, is meant to explain its differing uses over time and by different professions/professionals as well as popular uses. Looking at subclasses or secondary characteristics/distinctions might help readers understand that we are dealing with concepts here that are to some degree arbitrarily defined, and that no medical/psychiatric term does other than attempt to be a way of understanding human pathology, and is not a stand-in for the condition itself. Mattisse 13:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Explaining why mental illnesses are so difficult to diagnose precisely
-
- Carl, the deal is this -- the prior DSM (III) described psychopaths to match what has been described in the past (Clerkley) and currently (Hare, et al)... AsPD is not a description of typical traits and behaviors like the other PDs do - it is an artificial construct based upon statistical analyses of incarcerated (imprisoned) populations --- and so you have lower IQs, the 'juvenile delinquency', overt criminal behaviors that got them arrested and sent to prison. It TOTALLY overlooks and eliminates the Snakes in Suits, the intelligent psychopaths that have no empathy (are neurologically INCAPABLE of empathy - are minus human inhibitory wiring/firing), who treat people as things, objects and who are only out for themselves).
-
- Some people (the typical layman) think that the DSM-IV is some sort of damned bible - a uniquely objective 'last on the subject, universally accepted as the Holy Grail of wisdom'... and it ISN'T. The DSM is 15 years out of date. It was hammered together by a group of psychiatrists who TRIED to toss out things that were no longer PA (politically correct - like homosexuality and PDs considered anti-female and under attack by feminists), tossed out a few more like masochistic & sadistic PDs.
-
- The 'CURRENT' PD has been promised as on the brink of publication for at least 6 years now, but is only now in the second year of being exposed to a larger group of non-primary editors for THEIR feedback and input. The DSM is and always has been 'a work in progress' and THIS, the 'DSM V' has, as one of its problems, the fact that so much research concerning the actual brain differences that are the same and/or different from other disorders - research that HAS to be considered. And this is a big part of the reason for the continual putting off of the projected release date.
-
- In the past, all psychiatrists had was lists of behaviors and traits that were tossed into various piles of 'what usually are found together' or 'are OFTEN found together' and labels were put on those piles. Those piles were so vague and random, that anyone can notice that out of 10-15 'traits and behaviors', that generally as few as 5-7 are considered 'necessary' for the 'diagnosis' to apply to a particular person -- which is why two persons having 'NPD' are so different as to be totally impossible to identify as being 'identical'.
-
- Psychiatry has slowly been climbing out of the depths of the hole of 'we have nothing but psycho-dynamic theories to explain human differences' into the steady climb of brain studies that detect different levels of electrical activity, different quantities of blood flow, differing thicknesses of gray matter, more rapid head circumference growth in early childhood, reduced size/activity (and recovery of size and activity) of the frontal lobes, the hipposcampus, the amygdala, thalamus and other vital structures and activities of the limbic system. The brain is like the ocean - we are still totally ignorant of most of it.
-
- So don't get all twisted up in the DSM and focus on HARD SCIENCE. We don't understand everything and the DSM-VI is going to be different because psychiatry is an evolving science - much as the science of the creation and nature of the universe is an evolving science. The DSM is interesting as history, but not to be elevated into prominence and 'the be all and end all' except for the insurance companies who decide how WHICH 'diagnoses' are just 'in the mind' and therefore not worthy of being treated (in the sense of being paid for), not to mention many psychiatric diagnoses are not considered 'real illnesses' and thus are severely limited as to how many patient visits are allowed within a given 12 month period.
-
- You see, the DSM began as a way of psychiatrists and psychologists to kinda recognize enough vague similiarities to generally diagnose a patient (ie, toss him in one pile or another), but which is still so confusing and increasingly disregarded that a given patient can go to 3-4 or more mental health workers and walk out with 3-4 or more completely different diagnoses, either a single one or a multiple thereof.
-
- And since diagoses are SUPPOSED to dictate treatment, we have evolved into where treatment OUTCOMES are more likely to eventually help mental health professionals get a somewhat stronger grasp of what the patient really has in terms of biochemistry, electroactivity and structural differences within their skull. Treatment results are also not hard science, but they do help.
-
- Psychiatric diagnoses are not currently like diabetes, liver cancer, renal failure or 98% (okay, that's a guess) of human illnesses. For that matter, when the DSM-IV came out, it was not even recognized for that dogs and monkeys, and horses are subject to anxiety, depression and various other neuroses, anxiety disorders, et al. But for another matter, it has been recognized for CENTURIES that behaviors and personality traits ARE INHERITED by those who bred them. But since we don't consider human beings subject to selective breeding, it will probably be a few more decades before genetic inheritance of DNA is a vital component that will help explain why people reared under seemingly identical conditions will turn out completely differently - some of them 'normal' and some of them diagnosed with mental illnesses that are provably related to childhood abuse. Spotted Owl (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Interesting, but why is this general rail against the DSM and the contemporary state of psychiatry here? By the way, the DSM-III and DSM-III-R versions of antisocial personality disorder were even less similar to Cleckley's conceptualization of psychopathy than is the DSM-IV-TR version. The old DSM-III-R version was simply a very long list of criminal and antisocial behaviors (similar to the DSM-IV-TR diagnosis of conduct disorder). Babiak's industrial psychopaths, would probably qualify for a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, not antisocial personality disorder, in the DSM system.
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- Also, I hardly see only psychopaths as the only ones who are, "INCAPABLE of empathy - [people who] are minus human inhibitory wiring/firing), who treat people as things, objects and who are only out for themselves." This could describe the typical person in many deindividuated situations: the rush-hour commute, a large and unruly mob, a fearful populace goaded to war, a person just doing their job (could be telemarketing, a health insurance agent denying an elderly person coverage, etc.). The psychopath merely takes this disregard a couple of orders of magnitude higher.--NeantHumain (talk) 21:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Lack of empathy also is a trademark of Narcissistic personality disorder, I think. Mattisse 21:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Also, I hardly see only psychopaths as the only ones who are, "INCAPABLE of empathy - [people who] are minus human inhibitory wiring/firing), who treat people as things, objects and who are only out for themselves." This could describe the typical person in many deindividuated situations: the rush-hour commute, a large and unruly mob, a fearful populace goaded to war, a person just doing their job (could be telemarketing, a health insurance agent denying an elderly person coverage, etc.). The psychopath merely takes this disregard a couple of orders of magnitude higher.--NeantHumain (talk) 21:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
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- What I am saying, though, is that lack of empathy is pretty much the norm for non-personality disordered individuals outside the context of family and friends. This is why rude or careless behavior is so commonplace. Narcissists extend this lack of empathy to even those who should be close to them, and psychopaths extend the generalized rudeness and carelessness that pervade our society to the point of active aggression and exploitation.--NeantHumain (talk) 23:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'll have to disagree with you on that. Wikipedia is somewhat like that, but not real life. I don't find generalized rudeness and carelessness pervading day-to-day living. Mattisse 00:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- What I am saying, though, is that lack of empathy is pretty much the norm for non-personality disordered individuals outside the context of family and friends. This is why rude or careless behavior is so commonplace. Narcissists extend this lack of empathy to even those who should be close to them, and psychopaths extend the generalized rudeness and carelessness that pervade our society to the point of active aggression and exploitation.--NeantHumain (talk) 23:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
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It has been suggested that "Psychopathy" and "Hare Psychopathy Checklist" be merged. This would would not be a positive edit to these pages. At the core, the two pages cover different subjects. One covers a psychiatric disorder, while the other covers assessment and testing. The current setup (a link to Hare in the psychopathy article) is adequate. It addressed the topic and provides a link to further information if desired.
If it is insisted upon merger, then the "Hare Psychopathy Checklist" should be merged into the "Psychopathy" article. There are other measures on testing personality (e.g., NEO PI-R, MMPI-2, PAI, CPI, etc.) that can assess psychopathy to a certain degree, although none as well as the HCL. If "Psychopathy" is merged into "Hare...," then there is an inherent inversion of scope of coverage. "Psychopathy" covers a broader scope of coverage than "Hare...," and as such, it does not make sense to merge the greater coverage into the narrower coverage. It should be the other way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smit8678 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] no merge
It has been suggested that Psychopathy be merged into the Hare checklist. The Hare checklist is a tool used to diagnose psychopathy, it should be the Hare checklist article which is to be merged with Psychopathy and not the other way round.
I notice that there is already a request for merging with Psychopathy on the Hare checklist page. Two pages cannot be 'merged into each other', only A merges into B, or B merges into A, but not both. As such, I believe that the current merger tag on this article is redundant and can be removed. Correct me if you disagree with this. Overmage (talk) 05:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] The relation between psychopaths and CEOs, upper management, and entrepreneurs
I deleted the sentence in the article on that said that psychopaths overrepresent as business leaders. I deleted this due to the lack of real scientific evidence regarding the matter(good luck getting a group of these people together with a control group to do a personality profile). What we have instead is pure speculation, based off of the general observations of business leaders by their employees. This is not real evidence. I will give my explanation to why it is doubtful that many psychopaths will become succesful in the upper echelons of business. It is true that many succesful business owners and corporate leaders share certain traits with psychopaths, including high risk taking personality (probably due to a degree of impulsiveness) and a short temper (see source below). However, these traits are also found in people with ADHD and bipolar disorder, which many people suspect are the more likely canidates for overrepresentation in business leaders.
The reason why I find the relationship between psychopaths and business doubtful, is because two of the common traits associated with psychopaths, 1) poor, lazy workers 2) lack of forward thinking or long-term goals, make it impossible to be succesful business owner or high ranking corporate manager. As a business major myself, I know that most succesful business owners and corporate managers are notorious workaholics (even though we don't like to think so), and have a well developed sense forward thinking and planning for the future (something that most psychopaths lack). My personal experience with psychopaths (I was unfortunate to have known some) is that all the ones I've met have had finacial problems. They can't even manage their own finances, can we really expect these people to manage the finances of a business or multi-billion dollar corporation? In addition, while they might think of themselves as visionaries and hard workers, most are quite lazy and horrible planners. I definitely don't picture many of them running a succesful business or moving their way up in the company. To be succesful in business you also have to have a creative mind, at least in a business sense. High creativity is already proven in people with bipolar and is speculated with people with ADHD, but is not really associated with psychopaths. While it is true that many people with ADHD and Bipolar are poor workers, most improve with therapy or medication and become productive members of the work force, the same can't be said with psychopaths.
I don't doubt for a second that there are psychopaths working as high ranking officials in business. But lets not jump the gun and assume that they overrepresent because they share 2 or 3 common traits. Lets also not let our personal biases automatically tag certain groups of people as likely to be psychopaths. I have a feeling that futhur research will prove there are psychopaths in positions of power, but I have a feeling they will be the exception rather then the norm.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-04-20-ceos-heart-attacks_x.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtd00123 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Reverted vandalism
Hi, I reverted the changes by 212.219.203.141, and hopefully I didn't mess things up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefan Jensen (talk • contribs) 11:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Childhood precursors
the article seems to indicate that bedwetting, etc. are precursors of childhood psychopathy, but in the following paragraph says "Though the relevance of these indicators to serial murder etiology has since been called into question, they are considered irrelevant to psychopathy.". i suspect the word irrelevant is a typo? otherwise the section is quite odd. Agoodspellr (talk) 17:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- The paragraph apparently about crazy old cat ladies seems to be truly irrelevant to psychopathy and also to have nothing to do with childhood. I am far from an expert in the field or I would remove it. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I will take up the challenge.
[edit] Ok, bit of an odd question
I know this isn't necessarily concerning the article, but what if O read the Hare's checklist and can pretty much put a tick next to every point of "Factor 1"? I mean, I'm a little worried about this myself... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.123.49 (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why would you worry about something like that? It isn't so bad *being* a phychopath, it's mostly harmful for the people around them. And you whouldn't give a rat's ass about them if you were a true psychopath. Maxim K (talk) 07:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
