Talk:Psilocybin

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[edit] Early comments

Could include info about other psychoactive substances from the mushroom, their chemistry, effects on the human body and mind, how to find the mushroom and extract the psylocibin, references to Carlos Castañeda or others associated with psylocibin. David 14:28 Aug 17, 2002 (PDT)

There should be information on maximum safe dosages, consequences of exceeding them, dangers of regular use, etc..
Jorge Stolfi 13:33, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Castaneda's works aren't very esteemed and are rife with scientific inaccuracies. For example: One cannot "smoke" mushrooms, as Don Juan did. His works are now classified as fiction rather than anthropology in many bookstores. Ix 04:56, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think many people are thankful for that, and those that are going to be thankful when they are so mad because they tried to smoke mushrooms, thanks to this fool and his inefficient publications based on a simple placebo effect. When will people ever research there drugs before using them? Heat = not good for Psilocybin, people!!!! - 69.251.125.187 21:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

This warning seems almost humorously ambiguous and vague. Are we really suggesting that the reader "should" experiment with psychedelics. And what exactly is "signicant discretion"?: "Experimentation with psychedelics should be done with a lot of information and significant discretion." --LeeHunter 18:30, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] UK shrooms illegal?

I was under the impression that psilocybin containing mushrooms won't be illegal in the UK until May or thereabouts - Clause 21 (and indeed the rest of the drug bill) hasn't actually been passed yet as far as I know. Can the writer of that part clarify where it came from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.48.251 (talk) 18:30, 18 March 2005

I'm not the writer, but there's a timline of psilocybin mushroom law in the UK to be found at Erowid, right here. It's gone back and forth quite a bit apparently. -- — I. Neschek | talk 21:18, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From what I understand 18th July 2005 is the date which has been set for Clause 21 to become law. --Pappa 4 July 2005 15:05 (UTC)
Confirming the above to the best of my knowledge, since it's now a past event. This could do with integrating into the article now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.121.88 (talk) 02:08, 7 October 2005

[edit] Psiloybin Psilocin content

"In the fruitbody, psilocybin and psilocin tend to accumulate in the caps more than in the stems."

Research by several authors shows this to be true, check http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/24313 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anno (talk • contribs) 20:36, 16 December 2005

[edit] Australian laws?

I was hoping someone would know the laws of magic mushrooms in australia? I think it should be included here as its a fairly important country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.49.186.13 (talk) 00:25, 1 February 2006

[edit] Shorter LSD Trip?

"Effects of psilocybin generally resemble a shorter LSD trip."

I've done both mushrooms and acid, and it's really not merely a case of shrooms being a shorter acid trip. Acid is much more intense than mushrooms are. The way I compare it is that mushrooms give you more of a dreamy high, you laugh and giggle a lot, hallucinate with your eyes closed, and really just notice slight distortions in the light (things seem as if they're breathing, pulsing, patterns shift a bit). In the dark, you get open-eye hallucinations to some extent but not that much. Those hallucinations consist mostly of color dots flying around, stuff like that. You can more or less function in terms of walking around, speaking semi-fluidly...to an observer someone on mushrooms looks like they're just high on weed. On acid though, the hallucinations become tangible objects, everything is distorted (to me, it looked like the walls were covered in a clear flowing liquid), and you basically have no motor or speaking skills. You can barely even stand because your legs wobble all over the place, and you certainly can't come up with a decent enough train of thought to hold anything even remotely resembling a conversation. Think of the scene from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas where Duke and Gonzo first get to the Mint Hotel.

Long story short (I'm rambling now), this sentence needs to be reworded somehow, because a shroom trip is definitely not just a "shorter LSD trip". The Chief 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Well the effects you are describing are dosage related, not chemical. eat a few eighths in a sitting, or take some weak acid, and you'll see this. In my own experience, i would certainly say that it's the other way around, that acid is much less intense. but these things aren't really possible to quantify like that- i used to get weak acid and take large doses of mushrooms.
Eat enough mushrooms, your motor control is destroyed, and you very well may find yourself going through a full shamanic purge, ala ayahuasca.
These things are difficult to describe . . . but given that psilocybin generally doesn't last as long as lsd, and the effects are certainly comparable, im not really sure how the sentence should be reworded . . . especially keeping in mind verifiability/no original research guidelines.
--He:ah? 18:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Mind you, you're probably right. I think I did have a pretty high dose, I got it off one of my dad's friends who lived in the Hashbury in the 60's (when doses were hundreds of micrograms as opposed to about 75-100 micrograms now), so it's very possible it was similar to 60's acid, and more potent than what you'd typically find today. Perhaps something like "Effects of psilocybin are comparable to those of an LSD trip, although this can vary depending on dosage and mental state at the time of consumption."? The Chief 19:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd vote to keep in the "shorter" part, qualified of course, but your version sounds good. cheers --He:ah? 19:30, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
What about "Effects of psilocybin are comparable to those of a shorter LSD trip, although intensity and duration vary depending on dosage, individual physiology, and set and setting."? Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 22:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we have a winner, folks. I'll make the change. The Chief 22:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to this discussion... while the overall effects of classic psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline) may not be exactly the same and from some accounts, people claim there are worlds of difference, the bulk of this is due to set and setting. There are differences, but the primary difference is duration of effect. Two different people may experience exceedingly close subjective effects and experiences on two different psychedelics, and the same one person may also experience exceedingly different subjective effects and experiences from taking the exact same dose of the exact same psychedelic on two different occasions. I've heard the same "differences" applied to both LSD and psilocybin as far as subjective effects go. Accounts of drug effects are also often contaminated with use of other drugs -- namely cannabis, sometimes MDMA, alcohol, nicotine , caffeine or chocolate. Scientific study has resulted in minor differences in the styles of visuals between substances, and also mushroom experiences tend to impart more of a "heavy" feeling, or "body load" than LSD. The "coming on" of the two substances is also markedly different whereas psilocybin can start to take effect in as little as 15 minutes, LSD usually takes at least an hour. LSD's effects also appear to come in waves until the peak is reached, whereas psilocybin's peak comes on at such a rapid pace in comparison that any waves are not very prominent (or possible non-existent). --Thoric 23:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adverse effects?

"[Hoffman] first noted that they had adverse effects on the human cerebal system if they were to be used long term, due to their interaction with the body's sodium-potassium ion concentrations" Why is there no other info describing this potentially serious problem? Was his theory discredited? No source is given, so if anyone can expand upon this potential effect, please do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.187.80 (talk) 14:51, 25 March 2006

[edit] copyright . . .

dunno where your comment went, but anyways read Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ for info on that. you can't just reword it, and you can't use it, even if you cite it. --He:ah? 04:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vomiting

I would like to see a source cited that says vomiting soon after ingesting mushrooms will not affect the trip. I know of several instances where someone who has eaten a recreational dose, started feeling sick, and vomited, and subsequently did not get high. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.88.154 (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2006

[edit] Removing "References in popular culture" section

This section of the page does not contribute any relevant information about the alkaloid psiolcybin. The various trivia should be relocated to more relevant pages, for example, mention Lewis Black's psilocybin experience on his page. Is there any disagreement on this point and why? Wowbobwow12 00:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It really should be removed and used as the basis for another article, either Psychedelics in popular culture or Psychedelic drugs in popular culture. There's actually a great deal that could be written on that topic, beyond just a list of drug references. I'd like to get some feedback on this (including which title I should use) – I may move the list over there in the next week or so if there are no objections, though I won't have time to write more than a stub article on the topic. Peter G Werner 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Agree with relocation. Ideally article titles shouldn't be longer than they need to be. Since psychedelics is a redirect to psychedelic drug, I would say that Psychedelics in popular culture is plenty long for an article title ;) --Thoric 23:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I have created the Psychedelics in popular culture stub and have moved the psilocybin popular references to the new page. Wowbobwow12 02:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. There's lots of room for expansion with stuff about psychedelic influences in music, art, etc. Not that I have time for that, but if anybody's interested.... Peter G Werner 04:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nausea/vomiting/fasting

"Nausea is not uncommon when ingesting Psilocybe mushrooms, but typically subsides within an hour of appearing or less. Sometimes vomiting will occur, though this is rare unless a high dose has been consumed. Fasting before consumption often reduces the likelihood of nausea."

What are the sources for this information. A lot of this is starting to sound like original research, a no-no on Wikipedia. Peter G Werner 00:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on this point. How should we deal with this paragraph? I doubt anyone will step forward to offer citations, so should it be deleted? Wowbobwow12 01:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I think so, and have just done that; in fact, I got rid of most of that paragraph. If I come across something on the somatic effects of psilocybin, details on different methods of ingestion, etc. in any of my books, I'll type something up on that and give a cited reference. Peter G Werner 03:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I have seen quite a few references to fasting for both reducing nausea as well as increasing the effects of the drug. Unfortunately most of these are in FAQs, Erowid experiences and Shroomery message boards. I'll take a look through my books as well. --Thoric 13:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a source that states:

"Many people...find fresh mushrooms considerably less digestible than dried ones...[experiencing] cramps, indigestion and general [digestive] discomfort for much of the voyage. Drying them seems to eliminate whatever factor produces these effects."

This citation is from p. 160 of Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook: Easy Indoor and Outdoor Cultivation ISBN 0932551718. I'm not certain if this is enough of an academic-type source, but I thought I'd offer it. Wowbobwow12 01:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV Removal

The sentence I just removed seems like original research:

"A non-physiologically induced dreaminess is present up to 24 hours following administration, presumably representing the need to reflect and integrate the content of a profound hallucinogenic experience well into the next day."

Maybe if there was some citation or precedence for this is would be okay to put back in, in some form. Wowbobwow12 01:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Psychopharmacology Article

The recent (11 July 2006) articles added as external links refer to an article in the journal Psychopharmacology, DOI 10.1007/s00213-006-0457-5. The title is "Psilocybin can occasion mystical-type experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance" by R. R. Griffiths, W. A. Richards, U. McCann, R. Jesse. This journal article might be useful to someone that wants to edit the Wikipedia page. In my case I needed a university library ID to view the journal online. --Ryandontforget 20:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

My school has a subscription, so I just downloaded the PDFs of the article and responses to it. I'll read over it and add something in the next couple of days. Maybe I'll even add something really brief later tonight. Peter G Werner 22:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Done. I also added a bunch of links since this is considered a newsworthy topic. A password-free link to the original article can be found at a Johns Hopkins webpage here. Peter G Werner 23:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Google news reports

I saw major headlines about this topic in Google news. Given the nature of the coverage and the current nature of the topic I wanted to categorize it as a "current event" Nattu 15:41, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Event

This page is listed as a "Current Event" because of the Johns Hopkins study. I've added some appropriate text at the head of the article directing interested readers to the relevant parts of the article. How long should the "Current Event" box stay up before clearing it? A week? Peter G Werner 02:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I finally took it down yesterday. Since there were no new developments, three weeks was more than enough time to have it listed as a "current event". Peter G Werner 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pharmacology

Currently section states drug is a partial agonist at 5-HT2A. Recent article "Psilocybin for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder" in J Clin Psychiatry 67:11, Nov 2006, states that drug is agonist at 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, and 5-HT2C. They reference 2 articles one being from 1984 and one from 1990. Should this information be included or is recent article relying on old sources?--Psychofarm 19:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clinical trial

I find it odd that they're doing a clinical trial - or even that they're legally able to - on psilocybin. http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00302744?order=24 69.85.162.64 04:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is it odd? Some of these trials, as detailed in the article, had very interesting and encouraging results as far as helping people with terminal illnesses and religious people goes. The bigger question is, why would anyone wonder why it's not legally allowed, and why isn't it allowed on marijuana, MDMA and other substances that have been used for therapeutic studies in the past and now basically aren't allowed by the government? Perhaps a section addressing this could be included.--76.182.88.254 20:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toxicity

Reference number 7 is a 404 page. ^ NLM (click on "toxicity" on the left side)

[edit] Psilocybin Chemical Structure

I've checked out the chemical structure of Psilocybin from other sources such as Erowid, and there is no third hydrogen atom on the amine group of this tryptamine derived compound. Someone please update the image of the skeletal structure of Psilocybin, thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.41.152 (talk) 04:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] psilocybin is not an alkaloid

psilocybin does not make the jump back and forth between salt and freebase, it is not an alkaloid.

i dont know how to sign -matt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.252.45 (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Acid-base extraction can often be used to purify or enrich alkaloids, but it is clearly not what defines an alkaloid. Many alkaloids have additional functional groups (such as acidic groups) and properties (such as highly lipophilic or highly hydrophilic) that interfere with this procedure. There is nothing special about the amino group of psilocybin, it does "jump" between charged / protonated / ammonium / salt form and uncharged / freebase / amino form in a pH dependent manner, see also zwitterion. Сасусlе 17:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Send a lot of this article over to "Psilocin" article?

"Psilocin is the pharmacologically active agent in the body after ingestion of psilocybin or psychedelic mushrooms." Therefore, a lot of this information is better represented in the psilocin article, not this one. --1000Faces (talk) 06:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. However the drug is consumed as psilocybin, as psilocyn is generally unstable. Therefore a detailed discussion of psilocybin is warranted. Halogenated (talk) 14:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV and cleanup

This article is in major need of a cleanup. I removed a lot of info that was strongly advocating or instructional in the use of psilocybin. This is entirely inappropriate for wikipedia. Also, I removed info that detailed psilocybin mushrooms - this article is about psilocybin itself, and continued reference to mushrooms is not appropriate.

Much of what I added is not cited either. I added it from previous reading on the topic from various sources, some more POV tainted than others. However it all needs to be cited, and a more scientific POV presented. Discussion of spirituality and entheogenic properties are not very relevant to this article, which is about the compound psilocybin, not an extended how to guide on its use as a psychoactive drug. That is something for a separate article.Halogenated (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Function in the mushroom

One thing that I was wondering about was why these mushrooms synthesize psilocybin,etc in the first place. I looked around online for a bit but couldn't seem to find anything on it at all. I guess the obvious answer is to deter animals from eating the mushrooms, but we can't be sure about that maybe it plays some sort of hormonal role. For example auxins are basically tryptamines with the amino group replaced with a COOH and they act as hormones in plants. Maybe its even something the mushroom excretes to inhibit the growth of other species of fungi. The point is I don't know and thats something that should be added to this page if anyone can find research on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.64.109 (talk) 19:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Temperatures

Why can't I find any info anywhere about thermal breakdown of psilocybin? Everybody says heat degrades the stuff, but nobody cites any sources.

Any help appreciated. :-) Tsmith7057 (talk) 15:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)