Talk:Prussian Lithuanians

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Contents

[edit] Milestones

While undoubtedly an impressive work, this article makes hasty assertations and claims, and misses important facts - like the fact, that the territory of Lithuania minor was colonized from Lithuania major, and most of Prussian Lithuanians despite the name were not direct descendants of Old Prussians. Also some very bold statements about Lithuanian historiography as a whole, about the fact that Lithuanians could not understand Lietuvininks language, alteration of names is quite disturbing. It will take some time to reach compromise on these issues.--Lokyz 14:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

In the first instance the article needs to be rendered by the author or others into comprehensible English before it can be dealt with critically. Whole sections are confused and confusing, especially with the rather random, if unavoidable, inclusion of linguistic and ethnographic terminology. Being reasonably familiar with the linguistic and historical material, I attempted a correction of the English syntax, but, realising that this exercise would need many hours work, soon gave up.

One particular grammatical fault - common among non-native speakers of English - which runs through the piece, is the inability of the author to use correctly the English definite and indefinite article. There is no article in the case of the English indefinite plural. There are also numerous errors of sentence structure, verb-formation and tense usage, and mistakes in the choice of vocabulary and use of words. 86.143.100.141 11:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is written in generally bad grammar and thoruogh copyedit and rewrite into acceptable English is necessary.Iulius 21:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Moved from my talk page, because it seems to be more relevant here--Lokyz 09:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC):

Not whole Lithuanian historiography, where did you find word "whole"? After long time of thinking, reading and comparing articles and books I've noticed trends. Will you deny that in soviet times events after WW2 were well known? Are these events were mentioned in Soviet historiography? Even in western countries such themes were omitted as uncomfortable. I don't believe situation was better in Lithuanian SSR. OK, say this in different words or throw away this sentence. Anyway, majority of events in this article are taken from modern Lithuanian sources. Otherwise then explain to me, why exists something like a movement among Lithuanians which requires attach Lithuania Minor to Lithuania, when Lietuwininkai were totally different people? Where is the origin of such claims? --Vulpes vulpes 09:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's address the spelling issue - Pruſû Lietuwa, Maźoji Lietuwa, Lietuwininkai is certainly not Lithuanian form, despite claims in the article. Lietuvininkai might have used this form, but author may denote this somehow in other form, because there is not Lietuvininkai language template. Besides this form is used rarerly and allmost in pre-WWI books and never in English books, contrary to Lietuvininkai form. The influence of Gothic script may be noted in the article. And let me note, that different spelling does not necessary means different sound or pronounciation.--Lokyz 13:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Lithuanian language in East Prussia was different and used different letters and script. Is this hard to understand? Yes, this is Lithuanian language. Like American English and British English still are the English language. --Vulpes vulpes 07:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

These latest two contributions add little to one's understanding of the material, because they suffer from exactly the same linguistic faults as I have already made on this page.

Like so many articles on Wiki which may be described as somewhat 'contentious', this debate threatens to generate more heat than light, when what we are all (I hope!) trying to do is to make a reasoned and reasonable contribution to the non-specialists' understanding of a little-known and poorly understood period of European geographical history. 86.133.101.45 19:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This is talk page, so grammar is not as important. I'm missing a point here, what's your suggestion? An who are you, because I cannot see any previous suggestion from your current identification (an IP address).--Lokyz 22:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Grammar - syntax and correct use of words - is not important?? But surely if the author of the article and other commentators, such as you yourself, wish to reach a wider audience, whether on the main page or here in the discussion forum, comprehensibility is a 'sine qua non'? If we wish to make the intellectual effort worthwhile, then we need to be punctilious about the standard of the English that we use. Otherwise, perhaps you would prefer that the original article, and this discussion, be rendered into Lithuanian, Polish or German? Then, regrettably, those whom we wish to reach will 'lose out'.

On your point regarding my identity, I should make clear that I wish to remain anonymous. My contribution was posted below your own comment at the top of this discussion page on 16 September, where I made the point about the shortcomings in the standard of English in the article. This was promptly added to by another contributor, who made a similar comment. I apologise that this fact was not obvious: I have set up a new IP connection over the past few days. User:86.133.101.45 11:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

While the article text has to be rendered in good English, on the talk page per WP:TALK it is not required. Not all of he people in the world can speak or write perfect English. Therefore there is a request placed in form of Wikipedia:Template messages for Wikipedia participants, who are able to fix language and factual glitches, to improve this beginning of an article, written in a Nordic international Englich. If you have something productive to add to the article, like copy edit the text as you requested yourself, you're welcome. Cheers--Lokyz 21:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What should be discussed

The first qotation says: "mažlietuviai or lietuwininkai were neither Germans nor Lithuanians". It lacks the first half of the sentence: "The aim of her work, said S. Pocytė, was to prove / show, that minor-Lithuanians, or Lietuvininkai / Lietuwininkai, were neither Germans, nor Lithuanians". She might has proven (I has not looked to that work; did not see referenced)? While Lietuvininkai had different features, the better structure can be displayed by what they were (religion, other state - the main things), the situation of the different times shown. Being different, they still can be called Lithuanians. Separate Lithuanian ethnic group?

The part "traditional Lithuanian point of view" should have a better structure. The interwar period, the soviet period, modern day; then: the prevailing opinion(?), the political rhetoric(?) and some deeds (as the monument "for the liberation of Samogitia", while the land has became Lithuania Minor during the centuries; and it is good question, whether such slips are common?), the researching persons and their opinion. Dellijks 07:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Falsifications by user Dellijks

V. Vareikis original is such: "Memellanderers defined themselves separately not by ethnicity but by birthplace." On October 13 User: Dellijks [1] falsified line 64 in such way: "Memellanders built their self-consciousness on the place they were living, not on the ethnical group they belonged."

V. Vareikis original is : "Traditional Lithuanian historical scholarship, also failed to leave separate room for Memellander, accounting them Lithuanian. According to statistics from January 20, 1925 in the Klaipėda region 59,315 declared themselves German, 37,626 Lithuanian and 34,337 called themselves Memellander/Klaipėdiškiai. Lithuanian scholars from the interwar author Rudolfas Valsonokas to modern authors such as Petronėlė Žostautaitė and Zigmas Zinkevičius regard the Klaipėdiškiai simply as Lithuanian. The existence of a local identity is relegated by these authors to the realms of weakness of national consciousness.”

On October 15 User:Dellijks [2] falsified citation of Vareikis on line 192 adding words that weren't in V. Vareikis citation: "modern authors such as Petronėlė Žostautaitė and Zigmas Zinkevičius regard the Klaipėdiškiai simply as Lithuanian, after the language and culture, but not politics. The existence of a local identity is relegated by these authors to the realms of weakness of national consciousness.”

Probably understanding this won't go, on October 19 User:Dellijks [3] on line 214 not reverted own research, but fixed a bit: not taking interest in politics

This is a vandalism. Such users who falsifies original citations should be banned. Vulpes vulpes 09:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You are using a blunt manner of the speech (falsification and vandalism, a lie). I made a mistake here – simply did not notice these were quotations. Sorry, of course. I did not like the repeated charging manner used by you in some of sentences, for example, you wrote that the property was not given back for Lithuanians in Lithuania Minor, but not gave any quotation. Here is a piece of your enunciation from the article Lithuania Minor [4]:
Now still exists opinion among Lithuanians requiring attach Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuania [14][15][16][17]. Acording members {what members? it looks like you have missed where the quotation was too} whole Kaliningrad oblast, is an ancient Lithuanian land i.e. Lithuania Minor is understand as a Lithuanian land from times immemorial. Lithuanian nationalist union requires atach Kaliningrad oblast to Lithuania too {any explanations - what is that nationalist union; is it important, that you can use it to ground a statement of immemorialities?}. According Lithuanian nationalists Lithuania is rightfull succes-state of Old Prussians, and even all Balts [18]. Such point of view is quite popular in Lithuania, among Nationalists and Neo-pagans {if you think some movements are important, then display a citation to see. And, for example, the error: quite popular among Lithuanians, but then your specification was quite strange: neo-pagans and, since it was not given what the nationalist union was and “Nationalists” were written with the capital first letter, one can understand that you meant that union. But you gave the reference “nationalism” in the brackets. It is not correct. When wording so, a text is a mess-up}
Dellijks 13:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion merged from Talk:Lietuvininks

What does that "It is argued sometimes that the term Lietuvininkas basically just meant Lithuanian in Lithuania Minor;" mean?

  • ... just meant Lithuanian in the language called Lithuania Minor (as it could be understood by someone who does not know)
  • ... just meant Lithuanian in the area called Lithuania Minor?
  • ... just meant "Lithuanian in Lithuania Minor"?

--Matthead 20:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's simply poor English that needs to be copy edited, as well as many other parts of the article. I'll try to do it myself soon, but right now, I'm struggling with how best to proceed with the Wojna kokosza. Some people become so bent out of shape, when you're not careful. Dr. Dan 22:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Lietuvininkas was ancient selfname for all lithuanians. Those lithuanians who settled in XV century in Prussia this selfname preserved. Selfname of lithuanians who lived in Grand Duchy of Lithuania during time was transformed into lietuvis (and now is). Corect translation into english for lietuvininkas should be prussian lithuanian. In Prussia term prussian lithuanians was used even in XVI century. In the XIX and XX centuries lietuvinkas's used term prussian lithuanians - opposite to lithuanians who lived in Russian Empire.

I can just add to the words by Lookyz, that the new usage seemingly was used mostly in the XX century and more after the tragedy of the 1944 than before. Prussian Lithuanians understood (as in general) correctly this word till the end before the exiling. This is the basic argument why we shouldn't prefer this ethnonym to Prussian Lithuanians Linas Lituanus 15:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I am from Lithuania, and I don't know who uses such strange name - Lietuvininks. It is strange dialectical variant. In Lithuanian literature usualy are found such terms: either Lietuvininkai or Mažlietuviai. 81.7.98.250 08:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging

The term Lietuvininks, in fact shoud be Lietuwinink(a)s, is a singular form of Lietuwininkai. Ethnicities are named under plural, not singular form. So, I suggest opposite solution - merge this article (especially etimology of name) into Prussian Lithuanians. --Vulpes vulpes 08:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Prussian Lithuanians or occasionally Lithuanian Prussians are the preferred English terms. Lietuvininkas, Lietuvninkas, or the current Lietuvininks are barely used in English. Olessi 16:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest to read what these books are about - many of them speak about times of Teutonic order (year 1225) and this is not the same as the 15-16th century formed Lietuvininkai, that was mix of Scalvians, Nadruvians (sometimes called Western Lithuanians) remains of old Prussian tribes and Western Samogitians, who had arrived from the land from Lithuania major. Second problem - most of those books are form 19th century and pre WWII, while newer books use Lietuvninkas. Further argument is that those people did use this name to call themselves. Another argument is that in Lithuanian language Lietuvininkas orLietuvininkai is predominant.
On the other hand I do not think naming is the biggest issue here, much bigger problem is the Prussian Lithuanians text itself, that is written in not NPOV language and has quite bald unreferenced statements.--Lokyz 17:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge Prussian Lithuanians to Lietuvininks. Motives, Lietuvininks article was written log time ago, while Prussian Lithuanians only before few weeks; Wikipedia does not encourage article forking as well. If for some reason and motives current article name is wrong, proper procedures of renaming had to bee applied rather then through merge. As it could draw bad precedent. Reviewing several proposed book hints, indeed Prussian Lithuanians are used in context of Teutonic order rather then distinct ethnicity of later times. M.K. 09:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I on the contrary would suggest to merge this article as a section to the article Prussian Lithuanians, which is more appropriate naming in the English language.Iulius 11:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This does not mean, that Prussian Lithuanians article is better.--Lokyz 11:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Vulves Vulpes - thank you for your attempts to improve the article, just let me remind you that accusing other editors on vandalism and removing information added by others at the time is not the most constructive way to collaborate and can lead to serious actions against you. And please do not remove informational templates, like you did, unless the problems are solved.--Lokyz 11:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For Lithuanian users

Dear Lithuanian users, don't claim Lietuwininkai were Lithuanians. It is ridiculous to use highly biased, demagogic soviet books as arguments. I recomend you read some modern unbiased Lithuanian authors who interests in history of Prussia, like S. Pocytė or N. Strakauskaitė. "attempts to claim Lietuwininkai were Lithuanians are poor" - Balikienė B. "Labas ir sodeo, karaliene!: Prisiminimų karoliukai gražiosios Luisės vėriniui", Istorijos: žurnalas skaitantiems. 2007, 4 p.58-65. 81.7.98.250 12:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Why sure, popular lifestyle magazine is a very reliable source for such strong statements. Ah, and please read WP:NPA and WP:RS. Just out of curiosity who were they in your POV - speaking Lithuanian language, having Lithuanian ancestry.
As for the books , please be more specific which book is demagogic and soviet? Such broad and insulting generalization is not the best way to prove you're right, but can be a good way to easy spoil your reputation as a positive contributor.--Lokyz 16:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
These are the words of leading researcher - N. Strakauskaitė. Better find and read an article, where in popular way some myths are destroyed. By the way, popular culture [5] is considered to be reliable. 81.7.98.250 07:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

They w e r e Lithuanians, but different ones - divided by more than 400 years of separate development. One might even argue that they were more "authentic" Lithuanians than those beyond the border who they regarded condescendingly as "pulekai" or "moscovites". "Litthauen", bizarre as this may sound today, denoted northern East-Prussia in the 19th century. People were not much aware that there were Russian-Lithuanians as well. When they appeared on the scene, the self-germanisation of the Lietuwininkai accelerated. Georg/Jurgis Gerullis, rector of Königsberg University, sums it up here: same blood, same language... but the cultural gap between them was too big: http://www.ostdeutsches-forum.net/Geschichte/Prussen/Preussische-Litauer.htm Or in Kudirka's words "they speak Lithuanian, but they think German".

Lutz Szemkus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.246.254 (talk) 00:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

"Litthauen", bizarre as this may sound today? It doesn't sound bizarre at all. Thats exactly how Lithuania sounds in Danish, Swedish, German etc nowadays: Litauen--Termer (talk) 07:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What it interesting here is the fact that a region o u t s i d e modern Lithuania - a region in Germany - was called "Litauen", in the same way as we speak of "Bavaria" today. LS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.244.204 (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs complete rewrite

This article needs complete rewrite, not saying that it draws extensive OR, it also have misused sources, for example - source was used for supporting claim that Mažlietuviai or Lietuwininkai were neither Germans nor Lithuanians, while actually sources says this Jos darbo tikslas, sakė S. Pocytė, buvo įrodyti, kad mažlietuviai, arba lietuvininkai, nebuvo nei vokiečiai, nei lietuviai., which translates as Her work goal was, as S. Pocytė said, was to prove that Mažlietuviai or Lietuwininkai were neither Germans nor Lithuanians, which have completely different meaning. Not surprisingly such info was added by disruptive sockpuppet user:Vulpes vulpes currently blocked and controlled by user:Tarakonas. Needs additional checking remaining sources. M.K. (talk) 13:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 21:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not see any resolve of previous questioned statements, even beginning with the first one on the talk page. I do know, that wine does get better in time, especially if it is kept according to some rules. The articles tagged POV do not. Hence tagging again, and please provide some better arguments than aging. Have a nice day.--Lokyz (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, just small look to the article and we see such ridiculous POV like They were proud they were better Lithuanians etc. etc. No surprisingly that this article was created by POV sock User:Vulpes vulpes, which master was user:Tarakonas. Article need complete and total rewrite M.K. (talk) 09:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just so you all understand (Lokyz, for one) this:

  1. If the issues are minor and there is no recent discussion, remove the tag. (If someone disagrees they can just put it back!)
  2. If the issues seem to be suitably resolved, remove the tag.

Is not my policy, it is WP:neutrality (aging....) I'm not involved in your article, don't shoot me. If you want the tags for your own reasons, you'll get no argument from me. Have a nice day! Nice article, BTW.Jjdon (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

A bad article if you'd ask me. Rather an example of WP:POINT - created by copy-pasting few other articles, and cherry-picked citations taken out of context. I'd never do such a thing (my article ... gosh) and I did not intend to go personal with my comment. And please don't take it personally, and I'm unarmed and do not intend to shoot even with my finger;) Article is re-taged, I hope I'll have some time to begin fixing this mess (it's so WP:POVish, it gives me tremors). Cheers.--Lokyz (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


Excuse me, it is clearly wissible that this **** is written by a lithuanian or the author is someno who just have zerro knowladge level in this question.

At the first, there are few different etnonymes. Prussian Lithuanians (Prūsu Lietuviai) were only those who spoke west-augstaitian dialect, quite similar to Lithuania's lithuanian.

  1. This is not correct. Prussian-Lithuania includes also what was called "Memelland" in the 20th century. It is true that linguistically they spoke a western-samogitian dialect which was also called "klapedisku (not sure about spelling) kalba".
  2. As Lithuanian leading linguist Zinkevicius admits the Prussian-Lithuanian standard language is the basis of today's Lithuanian (not as Polish/Russian-Lithuanians -this is what they were called in Prussia in the 19th century - claim the Suwalki dialect).

Those who spoke so called "west samogitian" dialect - these people called them selves until the end of World War I : "Prūsu Būrai" (Prussian pesants) and sometimes "Šīšoniškai" (The people from there). Altrough this term was used when theey spoke to Curronians from Curronian Spit. Because of the fact that in this "west samogition" (or as they selves speak "Memellandisch") was alomoast no literarutre at all, the language was only for home use. So "Prūsu Būrai" were totaly bilingual for hundreads of years.They even today doesn't know how to write in own language/dialect. After World war I, the Memel territory which was habitated mostly by "west samogitian" speakers (rural areas near waters), was splitted of from East Prussia. And for Several years was almoast independant country under French protectorate, later - autonomous territory. In this time - they started widely to call themself Memellander. Balts used germanic name because western allies called territory only - Memel territory/Memelland. There was no baltic name at all. So if state is called Memelland, then just logic, that nationalists call themselves - Memellander. So, today the term "Prūsu būrai" is just remembered by elder memellanders. These Memmelanders feel closest relationship with Curronians, due to fact that the waste majority of words are the same in New-curronian and true memellandian. If we speak about grammar - then memellandian has more lithuanian type grammar but anyway with huge differences what makes it unable to communicate with lithuanian. The memellandian laguage is heavy mixture of old-prussian/old-curronian + low/high german + samogitian + new-curronian. Due to heavy load of germanisms (the same as in latvian) and fact of common-baltic words, that language is easyer undarstanable to latvian speaker, especialy if he knows the dialects of Kurland. Memellanders (moast) consider their speach a different language, mostly they consider themselves being compleatly different from lithuanians. And - as i know and i have heard myself - they are totaly unloyal to lithuania.

  1. Memelländers hate (Russian-)Lithuanians because they robbed their farms and desecrated their cemeteries: See here: http://www.annaberger-annalen.de/jahrbuch/1995/Annaberg%20Nr.3%20Kap4.pdf

I know only one pro-lithuanian memellander, but even he spoke about memellandian language not dialect. in my opinion lithuanians speak imperialistic chauwinism if there is speaking about new-curronians or memellanders. They speak what thy think, without any listening to that what speak people the same, they do what they want - without looking what want people. As they "counted within" into lithuanians those who called themself Memellander, in the same type they made "Klaipeda revolt", and now in time when tere are less than a 1% of real local people, they tech this crap into scools. in Wikipedia there should be some midle way. Or in best case : written both point of wievs.

  1. There should no place for cultural, linguistic and historical chauvinism in Wikipedia. It's incredible that the "Klaipeda revolt" article was allowed to stand for such a long time (well, I've changed the first passage now).

if more info needed Skype : kukuliic-lielais --MartinalSmith (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

  1. What you say is refreshing, but I don't understand your criticism of the "Prussian-Lithuanians" article. Except language and style there is not much to be critizised.

[edit] Prussian-Lithuanian is the basis of modern Lithuanian

This is a sacred cow in present-day Lithuania. But Lithuanian linguist Zigmas Zinkevicius is quite frank about it: their language is an import from Prussia.

from Zinkevicius "History of the Lithuanian Language":

"The activists used as a model that language of Lithuania Minor which was described in the grammars of the great Lithuanian specialists Schleicher and Kursaitis and was universally adopted by comparative linguistics. This was the language taught at Moscow University by Prof. Filip Fortunatov, whose lectures were attended by many of the activists of the national revival movement. That famous Lithuanian model, in the words of Kazimieras Büga, "the skeleton of the written language", was, for all intents and purposes, used in the periodical and other press in Lithuania Major, but it was somewhat modified and adapted to new requirements. This language is the origin of current Standard Lithuanian. Hence, it developed from the former written Standard language used in Lithuania Minor."......

"Essentially this was not a new written language, but a further stage in the development of the written Standard language of Lithuania Minor, which was meant to satisfy the needs of Czarist Lithuania. This is evident from the many correspondences between current Standard Lithuanian and the written language of Lithuania Minor. The latter differed significantly from the Suvalkish dialect of that period, which dialectologists now call the West Aukstaitish Kaunas dialect." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.203.140 (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is wrong then?

Why do those people who claim that this a bad article (yes, language is bad) give a few examples? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.254.179 (talk) 12:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnonyms used by German balticist

Jochen Range, Professor of Baltic Studies at the University of Greifswald, editor of the first Lithuanian bible by the German pastor Johannes Bretke.

"Terminologisch ist zu beachten, daß sich in dem deutschen Schrifttum des 19.Jahrhunderts "litauisch" und "Litauen" allein auf die litauischen Gebiete in Ostpreußen (ehem. Provinz Litauen) beziehen. In der litauischen Literatur wird "Preußisch-Litauen" meist "Kleinlitauen" (Mazoji Lietuva) genannt. Das ehemalige Großfürstentum Litauen wird in der deutschen Literatur meist "Großlitauen" oder - nach der 3.Polnischen Teilung - "Russisch-Litauen" genannt, die litauische Literatur verwendet hierfür die Begriffe "Großfürstentum Litauen" (Didzioji Lietuvo Kunigaikstyste), "Großlitauen" (Didzioji Lietuva) oder einfach Litauen (Lietuva). Ich verwende für den vorgegeben Zeitraum bewußt die Bezeichnungen "Preußisch-Litauen" bzw. "Russisch-Litauen", um nicht den Eindruck entstehen zu lassen, es handele sich um autonome, unabhängige litauische Gebiete. Die kulturelle Entwicklung muß ja immer im Zusammenhang mit der jeweils gegebenen politischen Situation gesehen werden, was die Namen "Kleinlitauen" bzw. "(Groß)litauen" nur allzuleicht vergessen lassen. (Jochen D. Range, in: Preußisch-Litauen in kulturhistorischer Sicht, in Deutsche, Slawen und Balten, Meckenheim, 1989)

[edit] Prussian-Lithuanian firsts

  1. -the first Lithuanian book (Mosvid, Samogitian))
  2. -the first translation of the Bible into Lithuanian (Bretke, a German)
  3. -the first Lithuanian grammar, and the second and the third (Daniel Klein, a German)
  4. -the first modern Lithuanian grammar, and the second (August Schleicher, a German)
  5. -the first Lithuanian dictionary in the variant that was to become standard Lithuanian, and the second and the third (Lexicon Lithuanicum , by an unknown German pastor)
  6. -the first Lithuanian poems (Lafontaine's fables translated by a German)
  7. the first piece of modern Lithuanian fiction, regarded as world heritage today (Donelatis, Prussian-Lithuanian))
  8. -the first Lithuanian newspaper, and the second (Kurschat, Prussian-Lithuanian, published "Keleiwis") and the third ...
  9. -the first collection of Lithuanian dainos (Rhesa, a Curonian)
  10. -the first Lithuanian university department (founded by the Prussian king)
  11. -the first Royal Lithuanian government
  12. -the most prolific writer of Lithuanian (Bretke, a German, about 50 per cent of the 16th century language corpus is his)
  13. - the first discussion about linguistic "correctness" (Möhrlin-Obermeyer, two Germans) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.254.179 (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

All this would have never happened without the patronage of the German/Prussian government and church and the commitment of individual German pastors. Lietuviai (descendants of Russian/Polish Lithuanians) try to blur and camouflage these facts today in order to appropriate Lietuwininkai (Prussian-Lithuanian) heritage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.156.238.196 (talk) 08:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


In my opinion there should be moved out crap. Anything and everything "showing" prussian-lithuanian "desire" to join to Lithuania - for the first. Because it is major bull.. it is clear to everyone who knows real "prussian lithuanians" and real "memellanders" - that practicaly nobody wanted any lithuania, and nobody still wants any Lithuania. They hate it in fact, they hate it so much that they better germanise themselves that let them to lituanise... If anyone from these autors would speak to real peasants of Memel territory, it would become totaly clear about what is speaking and about what i speak. The victorious are never trialed. When germans spoke lithuanian - it was in meaning of anyone speaking baltic and being peasant. When germans spoke "kuren" then they ment everyone and anyone fishing. There was no linguistic criteria to call someone - curronian it is only - fishing and local fishing customs. Not all curronians spoke curronian. Often females even did not know it at all, because only in fishing it was "better" to speak curronian - because "then you catched more fish". Prussian lithuanians and memellanders are not the same, as i told you. Memellanders are only those who spoke so-called "western samogitian", those who spoke augstaitian were simply lithuanian when speaking about etnicity and prussian-lithuanian when there is political talk. in memmellan there was ~30% those who declared themselves - lithuanian, but only ~11% of population woted for pro-lithuanian parties. it shows us what i spoke about. We also cannot forget that before and after WWI ther was a massive catolic immigration in memmeland from samogitia... so maybe these 11% are composed of them. You people do not understand thet we (people from Prussian descent) have no TV stations, newspapers, mass-media. We even dont know where lives someone else from our origin. Because it was banned (not good idea if you dont want to meet polar bears or 9 grams led) for 60 years to seek, and to speak. We are scattered accros all world, without any normal hope for survival, our lands are raped, stolen and made "lithuanian", "polish" and "russian"... These facts are the ground for that, why there are no tonns of macculature showing "truth". There shouldnt be any citates from authors who are not from the autochtonous descent by themselves. And then we will see - on what is based "official truth".

About Zinkevičius i better will not speak at all... But we can always make fun from "official" lithuanian "reserch" on "west samogitian". From the series : They have "(99% from the further text)" - the same as in the standart lithuanian... And last phrases... and yes of course there are many local words (with 3 examples) and many germanisms (also 3 examples). The funiest fact is that those things they "have the same" as lithuanian are mostly COMMON BALTIC. That fact that "western samogitian" is not normaly communicable even with all other samogitian wersions means nothing... I am not stupid, and i totaly hate scientific chauwinism. --MartinalSmith (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)