Talk:Prussian Confederation

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	This page is affected by the Gdańsk (Danzig) Vote. The following rules apply in the case of disputes:
For Gdańsk, use the name Danzig between 1308 and 1945 For Gdańsk, use the name Gdańsk before 1308 and after 1945 In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdańsk (Danzig) and later Gdańsk exclusively. For Gdansk and other locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) or Gdańsk (Danzig). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises. Reverts to conform with community consensus are excluded from the 3RR rule. Only the place names can be reverted exempt from the 3RR rule according to the outcome of this vote, additional changes fall again under the 3RR rule. Please use descriptive edit summaries. Persistent reverts against community consensus despite multiple warnings may be dealt with according to the rules in Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism. In case of doubt, assume good faith and do not bite newcomers. The detailed vote results and the vote itself can be found on Talk:Gdansk/Vote. This vote has ended; please do not vote anymore. Comments and discussions can be added to Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion anytime. This template {{Template:Gdansk-Vote-Notice}} can be added on the talk page of affected articles if necessary.

Contents 1 Older discussion 2 Polish names of the Polish cities 3 German text 4 Original Research and incorrect claims

[edit] Older discussion

The entries below were made before 2003, and don't yet reflect the outcome of the vote. --Matthead 19:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

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In 1454, the Prussian Confederation asked for protection from the king of Poland, which is granted. The King of Poland became Prince of Prussia, the two states becoming a personal union under his crown. This state of affairs would continue until 1466 when Prussia was granted its own independent duke and the confederation became the Duchy of Prussia.

EEEE?? in 1466 Prussia was directly incorporatedinto Poland. It never received it's own duke. It was ruled initialy by king's governors, IIRC, and i don't know if Polish institutions were immedetiely introduced.

Prussian confederacy was initiated by cities _AND_ knighthood.

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To szopen

JHK added things to this.

Prussia always resisted incorporation , but it was tried several times .

But Prussia was incorporated, it is directly stated in Treaty of Torun. It was governed by kings governor. It had parts in Polish senate and Polish Sejm.

1453-1466 was " War of the cities". 1466 Treaty of Thorn, was denied by pope and emperor.

Habsburg Teutonic Grandmaster continued as head over Prussia. Emperor Maximilian II was elected as king of Poland also, but died and Sigismund III Vasa of Sweden,duke of Lithuania, Prussia, also became king of Poland.

1453-1466 was 13-years war, when both Prussian cities and gentry asked Polish king for help. And yes, if not their help and determination Teutons could win few days, since many times Polish advisoprs recomended peace, but Prussian knights and burgers wanted to continue fight.

In fact without Prussian knighthood Prussian Confederacy would be impossible, and one of Kinights, Bazynski (von Baysen?) was choosed first governor.

Majority choosed Stefan Batory since noblemen shouted ,,az do gardel naszych nie chcemy Niemca" (we don't want Germans). Maximilian was defeated. Sigismnud Vasa was elected because most of gentry considered him relative of Jagiellons.

Emperor Maximilian II's son Maximilian III, Austria, Teutonic Knights Grand Master, was elected king of Poland also.

see outside link: http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/eico/seite45.html

He was elected with breaking of rukles of election, by total minority, and his resigned his claims after he was defeated.

Prussia never had any Polish institutions. Language was Hanseatic League Low German Platt, later High German.

Not really. However, as i say, i must consult my books on topic like when or if they had institutions like starosta, sad ziemski, sejmik krajowy etc. I will search for some data tomorrow.

Hanseatic League cities had German language independend city council government under city majors.

Krakow in 1504 had German city council. Many cities in Poland , Ukraine etc were founded with Magdeburg city charter rights.

Usually relocated in Magdeburg law, since they existed long before. BTW, some of first Polish books (very patriotis in their tone) were in fact published by Poles of German origin.

[edit] Polish names of the Polish cities

Giving German names to the Polish cities is vvvvvvery bizzarre?? and misleading to the readers.

I my opinion modern Polish names of Gdansk, Elblag and Torun should be mentioned here, and they are enough. To bring some compromise, I have introduces the bilingual names: Gdansk/Danzig, Elblag/Elbing and TorunThorn. I don't know why somebody doesn't like the Polish names and erases them constantly. CC 6:55, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Because this is the English Wikipedia, and the German names are the names that those of us who speak English know they by. Those names can be used to discuss the modern cities, but not the cities in history. RickK 06:58, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The cities are the same through the ages, but they have different names in different languages. In my opinion if a reader looks at the name of Thorn he/she will think that the city disapeared, was destroyed or something.

As Poland was occupied by several German states all Polish cities have a German name but it is very unpolite to use them today. And IMHO this is in violation of NPOV policies. CC 7:11, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, it's not. This has been discussed here ad nauseum, and what I said above is the rule. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). RickK 16:36, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The rule is that English-used name should be used, right? The question therefore is what is current English name, not historical one.

Another thing are names of geographical locations (Odra/Oder etc) szopen

No. The rule is to use the English name that was used at the time that the article is talking about. I have no problem with calling Polish cities by their current names if you're talking about them in the present, but I do have problems with calling them by their Polish names when that was not the names that were used at the time of the article. RickK 08:23, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Don't youthink it adds additional confusion? IMHoit should be Danzig (Gdansk) every time- since Gdansk was used by Poles since old times (it's not just name invented in 1939 or so, it was used much older) - and it avoids astonishing the user. Besides, then the rule is not consistent. Danzig wasn't used in English until XV/XVI century or so. Earlier in English LATIN name was used. Ditto for other names. You want us to put "Cracovia" "posnania" "polonia" instead of "Cracow" "Poznan" "Poland" every time?szopen

In any case the 19th century German-names for 15th century cities are wrong. CC, 03:08, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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[edit] German text

The following was removed from the article, so I have placed it on this talk page. Olessi 14:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Wir Burgermeistere vnd Ratmanne der Stete Mewe, Aldenstat Dantzike, Nuwenburg, Lauwenburg, Llebe, Heele vnd Puwczke Bekennen und zeugen offenbar mit desem vnßm Brieffe Vor allen die es zehn, oder horen lesen, Das wir mit wolbedachtem mute reyfem rate vnd mit eyntrechtigm gutten Willen, vnßre aller Scheppen, Bürger Inwoner vnd gantzen Gemeyne gelouben vnd vorheißen sulche eynunge vnd vorschreibung, alse die strengen, ffesten Erbarn vnd Ersamen Herrn Ritter Knechte vnd Stete dises Landes uff dem Tage Indica zu marienwerder vnderenander geeynet beslossen,vorschreben vnd besegelt haben In allen puncten vnd Artikeln alse dieselbe vorschreibung Innehelt vor vns vnser Scheppen, Buerger Inwoner vnd ganze Gemeyne die nw vnd auch zukuenftig sint stete feste vnd vnvorsert In guttem rechtfertigem glauben, bey trewen und eren tzuhalden dobey tzubleiben, der tzugebrawchen, vnd nach gantz vnsre macht genug tzuthuende, sunder eyngerley argelist, In allen tzukomenden tzeiten Vnd tzuforderm Bekentniss vnd warhaftigem gezeugnisse aller vorgeßsagten sachen Haben wir Burgermeister vnd Ratmanne vorgenant von vulkomener macht eyntracht vnd befeles wegen, vnsir Scheppen, Bürger, vnd gantzen Gemeyne, vnsir vorben Stete Ingesegele laßen anhangen desem Brieff Der gegebn ist zu Dantzike, Im Jare vnßes Herren vierzehnhundert und ffierzigsten am Sonntag Quasimodogeniti.[1]

[edit] Original Research and incorrect claims

The German names in the table are also modern rathre then their Middle-Ages versions, while there is no proof given here that Polish names only appeared in modern times as current version suggests. Polish and German names is more neutral then German and Modern names which might suggests Polish names appeared only recently.--Molobo 20:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)