Wikipedia talk:Profanity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also Slang, m:Should Wikipedia Use Profanity

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wikipedia:Profanity page.
Archives: 1, 2
Archive
Archives
  1. 2003 - Sep 2004
  2. Nov 2005 - Oct 2006


Contents

[edit] History merge

A history merge request was made for this page {{db-histmerge|Wikipedia policy/Foul Language}}

The history of the two pages overlap, however, in which case it is recommended that "An appropriate procedure for such a case is to forego the history merge, and instead handle the situation much like a normal merge; put a note pointing to the other version of the page on the article's talk page" Also, Wikipedia policy/Foul Language is not a cut-and-paste move from this page but just a separate page on the same general topic. Also, the amount of data at Wikipedia policy/Foul Language is small and was made by basically one editor, and its content is more suitable for a talk page then a proper policy page. And the last meaningful edit at Wikipedia policy/Foul Language was in November of 2001. So rather than merge the histories I'll just state that there is a small amount of discussion in the history at Wikipedia policy/Foul Language, which is now a redirect page. Herostratus 17:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Informative" or "Illustrative"?

I am a bit concerned about some consequences of the word informative in the following passage:

"Words and images that might be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by other Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate....

As it applies to images of historical figures, images seldom provide new information, but they illustrate concepts that are already available from other historical sources. Let me give two examples:

The first concerns the portrait of Bede (Venbedes.jpg‎) illustrating his article. This romantic late 19th / early 20th c. depiction, was included because it illustrates an event that is described in a contemporary 8th. c. account of the circumstances surrounding Bede's death that is cited in the article.

The second concerns Rafael's portrait of Plato and Aristotle (Sanzio 01 Plato Aristotle.jpg) in the article on Greek Science. This 16th c. painting by Rafael does not pretend to be an accurate depiction of Plato and Aristotle, but was included in the article because it illustrates the contrast between Plato's concern with celestial things and the eternal world of ideas and Aristotle's concern with earthly matters, as discussed in the article.

In neither case do these illustrations have any claim to be historically accurate depictions nor do they provide new information not available from other sources and discussed elsewhere in these articles.

The reason I raise this issue is that in the discussions of posting portraits of the Prophet Muhammed, the issue has been raised that, because of the profanity standard, portraits of the Prophet should only be included if they provide new information -- i.e., information not available from sources other than the portraits under consideration. In the case of all portraits of early historical persons, this criterion is seldom, if ever, met.

I would suggest that the focus of this criterion be shifted from one of "informative" to "illustrative", as was applied in the non-controversial illustrations of Bede, Aristotle, and Plato. Exactly how this could be phrased to retain the current prohibition on the vulgarly obscene, while allowing the use of meaningful illustrations that are considered to be culturally sensitive is a difficult question. --SteveMcCluskey 16:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That is my point too. That the inclusion of fake Picture of Muhammad is not only NOT adding any additional information but it is even decieving the reader to think at first sight if the picture really was painted by someone who saw Muhammad (So thinking that picture to be true, and getting NO addional information at the same time). VirtualEye 14:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
in your opinion.--Sefringle 04:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Community standards?

Legal definitions of obscenity (at least in US jurisdictions) speak of obscenity as offending 'the average person, applying contemporary community standards.' In Wikipedia our editing should conform to Wikipedia community standards. Until recently, this guideline on profanity reflected that, opening with the passage:

"Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers...."

Comparatively recently, a pair of changes were made that transformed the opening to read:

"Words and images that might be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by other Wikipedia readers...."

I am concerned that these changes transformed the guideline so that the criterion shifted from what would offend a typical Wikipedian toward what might offend the most sensitive readers. I propose we return to Wikipedia community standards as they apply to the average person. --SteveMcCluskey 03:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. WP:CREEP also comes to mind as why the "might" and "other" additions might not be such a good idea. -- Ned Scott 07:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, I've seen this same type of needless ambiguation cause problems with other policies, such as WP:U. Mights, maybes, potentiallies, and possiblies should be avoided in favor of clear and unambiguous wording. Kaldari 21:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the long-standing version. I believe introducing "typical" reader unnecessarily complicates application of this guideline. --BostonMA talk 20:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Typical" has been in Profanity since 2003/2004. It was a recent edit that greatly changed the spirit of this section, removing "typical".. and making this ruleset entirely too broad. This guideline can not be applied because one person out of millions is offended, or even if a minority out of the majority of users are offended. If so, then this Profanity ruleset will (and is) being used by special interest groups to dictate to the whole, what article content should be. This is unacceptable, reverting to pre BostonMA's change. Brad Barnett 22:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with SteveMcCluskey, Ned Scott, Kaldari and Brad Barnett.Proabivouac 00:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it makes the guideline too broad. According to the recent language, any phrase or image which is informative to the context of the article is immune from removal on the grounds of offensiveness. This would include, in the appropriate articles, images of genitals, sexual positions and everything else which would be informative to a reader (including child readers). Broadening the leeway for images would not help to improve the informativeness of the encyclopedia, because the standard already permits any informative content, in the appropriate articles. On the other hand, raising the bar for the offensiveness clause will enable a greater number of users to utilize Wikipedia to make a WP:Point. There is no value added in Wikipedia to intentionally offending a minority. --BostonMA talk 00:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is what is offensive to one person may be perfectly OK to antother. It seems to me you are trying to deliberately manipulate the rules to better your goals on the Talk:Muhammad/Mediation. Censorship is also used to prove a point. I wonder if BostonMA's edits are WP:POINT. What is offensive to one person may be informative to another, and that just adds ambiguity to the wikipedia policies. Typical is far better phraising, becuase everything can be offensive to somebody. With typical, it has to be offensive to a majority. With BostonMA's phrasing, if it is offensive to anyone, it counts as offensive. The problem with that is anyone can find anything offensive. Then would wikipedia still be uncensored if anything consitered offensive by somebody else could risk censorship?--Sefringle 01:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle points to some valid criticisms of the recent wording. However, I think requiring a majority to find something offensive is too stringent a requirement. I would be willing to compromise. Wikipedia is not censored. However, Wikipedia is not about free speech either. It is about providing information. As long as we do not sacrifice our mission of providing information to the sensibilities of others, I think we are doing fine. --BostonMA talk 02:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
In regards to "It is about providing information", well, it's about providing representative information. I think if you think in that way you will avoid lots of problems. Therefore when you go to human anatomy you should not see the images of sexual intercourse that you might expect in sexual intercourse. Just like a Muslim going to Muhammad should not expect to see William's Blake's image of Muhammad with his intestines falling out in Hell whereas he or she might expect to see that in depictions of Muhammad. I think this language should be clearly stated in the guidelines because too often I've seen "Wikipedia is not censored" used in places where it doesn't necessarily apply. gren グレン 23:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Well that creates an unnecessary problem. That creates ambiguity. Vertually anything can be offensive to somebody or some group. I'm sure the Neo-Nazism article would be offensive to Neo-Nazis. That doesn't mean it is bad, uninformative, or should be censored. I'm willing to compromise too. The problem is how to compromise without creating an ambiguous guideline. Offensive is offensive to everybody, the majority or somebody, or offensive is somewhere in between. I think the origional version is good, because it didn't create ambiguity as to what would be consitered offensive. If not the majority, how much is necessary for it to be consitered offensive?--Sefringle 02:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't think it creates as great a problem as you might think. Remember, the test is only signficant for words or images that are uninformative in the context of the article. Neo-Nazis might find various words or images offensive. However, if we are faced with a choice between being informative or being inoffensive, we certainly must choose informativeness. That is our central purpose. The guideline, as I see it, is to provide for the case where there is not a choice to be made between being informative or being inoffensive. Rather, the choice is to be made between being more or less offensive without sacrificing informativeness. I know this doesn't answer the question of ambiguity. I am more or less thinking out loud. I am about to log off, and will return tomorrow. --BostonMA talk 02:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
But again, what is informative to one person may not be to another. Offensive is the same way, and that is where the ambiguity comes in. If a pirture is offensive and uninformative to one person, and unoffensive and informative to another, should it be included?--Sefringle 02:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
BostonMA, supposing that anything might be conceivably offensive to someone for reasons unknown to us, we might rephrase your statement as simply, things which aren't informative should not be included here; no reference to the profanity policy is necessary.Proabivouac 03:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Profanity on article talk-pages?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but is this a violation of sorts? Even more so when made by a WP administrator? Ekantik talk 05:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Profanity addresses mainspace content; talk page posts are governed by WP:CIVIL.Proabivouac 05:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Maybe we should add it to the policy.--Sefringle 05:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The same has happened to me by somebody who was treated with respect. Trampikey It would seem completely out of place and pointless. WP administrators should have a modicum of self control and a modicum of respect for fellow wikipedians. Aussiebrisguy 20:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Censoring on pages directed at children

On the French 101 (an episode of The Suite Life of Zack & Cody) article, it mentions that Cody was about to say to Zack "I am going to kick your a**", but was stopped. Should this remain as it is, should it be changed to ass (not exactly a strong swear word), or should it be revereted to what it was before, where it said 'Cody was about to curse'. Cream147 Shout at me for doing wrong 20:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Now it has replaced a** with -- which makes it factually incorrect as well as censorship. It says he was about to say "I am going to kick you --", well actually, he did say that, as the dashes mean absolutely nothing. Please answer on what should happen in this situation. Cream147 Shout at me for doing wrong 00:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Profanity on article talk pages

Is there any guideline as to whether profanity is acceptable on talk pages? And if it is not, is it considered appropriate to delete it. I ask because neither this guideline nor the one about talk pages mentions the issue. Theredhouse7 07:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Fucken' oath mate. Did you miss the section just a couple above this? Fuck... Anyway, talk pages are covered by the civility guidelines. That means that I can't call you (for example) a "fucking stupid idiot", but I can (as I understand them) say that your ideas or opinions are "fucking stupid". And of course, liberal use of swearing, so long as it doesn't go against the civility guidelines is encouraged to make people aware of how fucking stupid it is to get upset by words that aren't discriminatory. Or at least that is my fucking opinion. I'm sure that not everyone fucking well agrees however. - Anonymous Coward 15:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Agree with you :)--BMF81 13:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disclaimers

I came to this page looking for guidelines on whether/when to use disclaimers on pages containing profanity, and found nothing. It took me some further searching to find Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles, which addressed the question fully. I propose adding a note to the same effect to this article, as I think that may be helpful to others looking for the same guidance:

Disclaimers should not be used in articles that contain profanity. All articles are covered by the five official disclaimer pages.

Also an addition link in the "see also" section:

Should "Do not use disclaimers" also be added to the "article in a nutshell" at the top? Opinions welcomed. Mooncow 14:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As no one expressed a view either way so far, I have added the note, the link, and the addendum to the "article in a nutshell". Mooncow 19:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archived

I've created archives for this discussion page, from 2003 to Oct 2006. If anyone wishes to continue any of the archived discussions, please create a new topic on the main Talk page rather than editing the archives themselves. -- Kesh 05:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia is not censored.

Enough said. Why are we even having this debate, it is even worse when you are concerning yourself with a user's page. Just like it is completely fine if they go ahead and misspell every other word on the userpage. Sure, I'd much rather if they didn't and had it all looking spick and span instead. But in the end it is not worth making a fuss over. Mathmo Talk 11:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What debate are you referring to? -- Kesh 16:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
This Village Pump discussion, which now says it's closed and people should come here if they have anything else to say. --Thespian 20:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah. A reference like that would've helped in the first place. I'm still confused why Mathmo came here to start a discussion with "why are we even having a discussion?" though... -- Kesh 04:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
errrr.... I'm wondering the same too, I'm sure it must have all made sense at the time to me?! Mathmo Talk 00:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mac OS X Leopard

Mac OS X Leopard will have a "Wikipedia Content Filter" which will "limit access to profanity in Wikipedia." (as part of parental controls) http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html —Nricardo 23:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incivility

I see that "Wikipedia is not censored" is sometimes used to defend incivility. Is the policy only for articles? --Kaypoh (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The policy applies to talk pages as well but in reference to the article. It is fine to discuss a penis or dick on the penis talk page, but quite another thing to call another editor a dick. So this policy should not be used to defend incivility - the WP:CIVIL policy applies to that IMO. Morphh (talk) 14:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Content ratings

I've posted a policy question regarding "Wikipedia is not censored" and content ratings to the Village pump. Morphh (talk) 15:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Looking for profanity titles?

Where Special:PrefixIndex allows you to search article names that begin with a certain text string, Wikimedia.de grep is a recently improved tool that allows you to search text strings anywhere they appear in the article name. For example, if the article John Smith is delete and recreate as John J. Smith, entering ^John.*Smith$ at Wikimedia.de grep allows you to keep tabs on all John Smith articles, whether John, Johnny, Johnson is used, or any text string is placed between John Smith. search example Even if the beginning of the article name is changed, grep lets you search the middle and end of the article name for common text patterns. Wikimedia.de grep allows you to find such postings in project space and any other name space.

With this fuck search, I found false blocking notice, Blocking or other action needed: 1, 2, 3, 4; Offcolor article names in user space: 1, 2, 3; Offcolor userboxes 1, 2, 3; Offcolor commentary: 1; Offcolor essays: 1, 2. GregManninLB (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Actual censoring. (A.K.A don't take advantage of uncensoring stuff)

You are not supposed to censor articles that actually say a swear word. HOWEVER, you are not supposed to uncensor an article that censored the statement (in this case: "TAKE YOUR F**KING PANTS OFF"). If this happened (it did), it should remain censored until an uncensored version comes out. Wikipedia attempts to make articles as accurate as possible. Remember, if this happens, you are totally allowed to WP:IAR and censor it, but only if it was orignaly censored in its broadcast. Ellomate (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)