User talk:Pro crast in a tor
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Hello, world!
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[edit] Integral Wiki deletion
Hi, I put it there to show the contrast and similarities to the page, I find it striking. As for the edit war between me and goethean that shall last for some time to come, until he has decent respect for me as an editor, until he becomes more realistic about "the vision" of his page. So yes, once again it degenerated into edit battle with goethean, but I contend I did not throw the first shot. -ForrestLane42 03:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42
The comparison seems moot to me: why should we care what other pages look like? Personally, I didn't bother to look at it, and it seems goethean took some offense at what was said, so overall it was just reducing the signal-to-noise ratio, and I removed it. Pro crast in a tor 03:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry u see it as moot, but shouldn't others get to decide?? goethean takes offense to anyone other than himself - whatever I said, he would have gone crazy over. i just think that looking at both pages might help to enlighten the situation, sorry u differ. -ForrestLane42 04:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)ForrestLane42
[edit] Goethean and ForrestLane42
Recently, Goethean and ForrestLane42 have both come to me for administrator mediation of sorts, each accusing the other of various wrongdoing (personal attacks, harassment, etc.). I noted that you have worked with both of these editors on Ken Wilbur, and I would like to hear your point of view regarding these two and their volatile relationship. If you are uncomfortable with discussing this on the wiki, feel free to email me. Thanks, Larry V (talk | contribs) 09:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Larry V, nice to meet you. I'm not sure what I can do to address your request: everything I can see on the Ken Wilbur pages and the editor's respective pages, are also available for you to see. But I can pontificate on what I've seen, and am happy to do so in a public forum, I follow the the WP:DGAF, and find the whole thing pretty amusing. Hilarious, even.
- From what I can tell, Goethean is determined to document Integral theory, and ForrestLane42 is challenging the notability of most everything Goethean is trying to do, as he believes most of this theory is not notable. Note that I'm basing this on just three or four pages I've seen: I have no idea if this is a representative sample of their interactions.
- I think Goethean tends to be too verbose and inclusive in his editing, with a POV showing at times. I think ForrestLane42 tends to be too strict in his interpretation of notability (showing his POV) and is quick to take offense, with the additional baggage of not being a very strong editor. Watching these type archetypes battle it out is like a novel that writes itself.
- As is usually the case, I'm pretty sure the truth lies somewhere in between. I think ForrestLane42 needs to discuss edits and deletes more on the talk page, as you have mentioned, and especially to ask on the talk page before adding new tags because he's a junior editor and seems to get it wrong more often than not. It would also be helpful if Goethean presented a more NPOV when editing so ForrestLane42 wasn't right as often about his POV showing, including POV by omission of criticism and POV by subject verbosity (drowning out everything else). As an example, AQAL by Goethean has no criticism section, even though critiques of AQAL are easy to find, making the article POV IMHO. But if ForrestLane42 were to tag it as POV (which is what he'd probably do, rather than actually fix it by adding a criticism section), he'd be right, but they'd be off to the races and would need someone else to step in because neither one will actually fix the article. At least, that's how I'd envision it happening if I were writing the story, but I don't think it'd be too far off. Pro crast in a tor 11:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC) (and amused that he's spent more time on the Ken Wilber article than on his books at this point)
- ------------
- Hi Larry V, you asked me about this on my talk page, and Pro crast in a tor kindly invited me to centralize the discussion here, so here I am. I'm not a devotee of integral theory, so I can't say anything about POV or content, but it's clear these two have it in for each other, and are semi-stalking each other, and when they collide it tends to result in a series of secondary explosions on talk pages and admin notice boards, etc. But it's not all that bad. It's childish and also (as Pro says) kind of amusing. But I don't think it's at the point of sanctions yet — neither of them is a vandal, they just have what might be called maturity problems. ForrestLane42 also has a bit of a literacy problem — it's sometimes hard to discern what he's trying to say — so he seems to find it easier to add tags rather than text to articles, and goethean, in turn, baits him with unnecessarily florid language (e.g. "You seem to have declined to rebut my supposition in regard to your motivations for the nomination," which utterly cracked me up). Anyhow, I think they just need to be gently admonished. Eventually it will get through to them that this war is uninteresting, and they will disengage and go on to do productive work. At least that's what I hope. Cheers, Eleuther 14:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Request for Mediation
A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ken Wilber, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible.
[edit] RFC
Please comment at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/ForrestLane42. — goethean ॐ 15:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What's spam/what's not
With regard to our recent conversation over in the at Hot tub, I often have a very hard time deciding what's linkspam and what's not and which links should be allowed to "sneak by" and which shouldn't. But the test I've been using more and more is "Would this list grow out of control?"
So, for a (hypothetical example), if I was looking at the Atomic absorption spectroscopy article and I saw a set of links to the vendors of such devices, I'd be tempted to leave the links because there just aren't that many vendors of such gadgets; how big could the list grow? And people might have a genuine need to find these vendors.
But for hot tubs, I know that there are many, many manufacturers and seemingly millions of dealers, and if we let one in, then the next thing you know, there are a hundred links and everyone wants to know why we're deleting their link but not the link to Harry's Hot Tub Emporium and Bikini Shop. So for that kind of article, I tend to be ruthless, routinely eliminating all the external links even when they contain some useful data (as the rotomolding link did). The Rolex article goes through the same sorts of cycling.
None of this is any official policy, of course, just some heuristics I've developed after editing here for a while.
Atlant 13:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Request for Mediation
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A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Ken Wilber.
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[edit] Edit of XOM page
Tom, I'm trying to get some real content and structure into the XOM page. You seem to be following some unknown-to-me style sheet for a corporation (e.g., move financial data and board composition to bottom). Can you point me to your model? I'm trying to get up the MoS learning curve, also, as you can see. I'm sick and tired of people turning this page into a punching bag for their personal anger toward XOM, whatever its merits and faults. I figure more factual content will drown out the noise.
By the way, I would hardly call Lee Raymond a minor name and unworthy of mention on the page (I can take or leave the Bush administration gopher). There really should be a place for former executives, engineers, and scientists of note, especially if they already have a Wiki page. MJRathbone, 8/21/07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MJRathbone (talk • contribs) 03:59, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Black Addis
Hey. Thanks very much for your good work on putting together a good attempt at an article. I clearly didn't have the time or know how. I don't understand why I was attacked, insulted, and my psychological status questioned--other than I'm a noob and there are people who enjoy power tripping on here. The same folk have only given you minor editing, free of insults. Good luck with the work. and thanks again.
--Natevoodoo 22:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I did read the rules. They aren't set in stone. like real laws, they can be debated and interpreted. I gave my interpretation. wiki is not a place for intelligent debate however. and while i was upset and defensive, it doesn't mean that i wasn't personally attacked. and i'm not alone in finding webhamster and calton abrasive. there is a clear difference between the comments and tone calton cast at me and the ones at you. there was a clear difference between those like corvus cornix who disagreed with me yet was polite and also good at explaining his POV. calton makes up for his lack of clarity with abuse as far as i can tell.
it seems like you made a noble effort, and that's what my thanks are for. i didn't have time to do it or really any journalistic skill. my only argument for the one sentence, that I myself didn't even write, was that it's a stub that is worthy of people adding to. At one time wiki was open to this, i observed it. and now they are not. Wikipedia hopes to be notable itself perhaps, but they are still not taken seriously so I wonder if it's worth deleting so much potentially useful info towards that unreachable end. whereas less control results in something much more alive, vital, and reflecting what's actually out there in life.
it's really made me question using wikipedia at all. at least with a paid service there is someone responsible who can be fired, and just as limited a scope in view.
i hope you will consider unblanking your user page. i would love to refer others who can add to it in it's current form and contribute as a group. a group can always do more than an individual. the last discussion for your page was not to repost it, it didn't ask that your userpage stop existing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Natevoodoo (talk • contribs) 23:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Huffington Post and Washington Post
Forgot to leave you a note earlier - thanks for the pointer to the HuffPo article - I hadn't seen it, and I don't think the reporter mentioned it. Actually they got it pretty right, it seems to me, as a veteran of the Obama dab disputes, but why no interviews?. I added it to the Wikipedia:Wikipedia in blogs press page anyway. As for Monday's WashPo piece, I have the impression that it was a good deal longer, and was cut down - not surprising - so you and your Romney editing may have been cut by an editor who wanted it to be more focused. On the other hand, now that things are heating up about Great-grandpa's exile to Mexico, there could be a follow-up article, or one by someone else. Truth is, I talked more about other things than about Fred vs Freddie, which I never thought was such an important point - but it does make for a lively article. As for pseudonyms - I like yours. Mine isn't too opaque, but I'm not concerned about anonymity (obviously) - and I'm not really sure why so many editors are. Anyway - thanks for your note! Tvoz |talk 23:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Presidential candidate bios and semi-protection
Thanks for your note on my talk page. Wikicharts is a work in progress, and I hope that one day Leon's stats will settle down so we can cite them with greater confidence. But my views on semi-protection of these articles don't depend on how many people read them or how often they are vandalized. My long-standing difference of opinion with Tvoz and other contributors at Talk:Barack Obama is not about whether semi-protection is sometimes called for to calm suspected outbreaks of coordinated vandalism, but rather the appropriate duration for each instance of semi-protection, and whether less intrusive revert+warning-then-block methods ought to be tried first. The admin who recently protected Mitt Romney's article applied an expiration of two weeks, which I think is a quite reasonable limit.
Uncivil behavior is, always has been, and will likely continue to be a part of political life. The US legal system has set a high standard for what speech should and should not be tolerated for public figures and for the liabilities of publishers. It's surely not pleasant seeing people throw mud at your work, but even mud can sometimes tell us something useful. Sometimes the mud sticks. It gets washed away, but some of the writing that preceeded it comes off with the dirt. That's when we are collectively prompted to rethink the neutrality of our collaborative writing and challenged as a community to improve it. I think it is just those kinds of everyday living and learning improvements that set Wikipedia apart from other information sources and makes editing here a unique learning experience for readers and editors alike. Thanks again for your note, and good editing. --HailFire 16:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] rawkcuf
Um, hello, Sorry you dont approve of my handle. (Its based on my name.) I had never thought of it as being read that way. It is a bit disconcerting to be told that your name is offensive, but I guess people will see what they want to see. I appreciate your efforts on the campaign pages, and hope you will bear with me when our opinions don't always agree. I know your intentions are for improving the quality and comprehensive nature of wikipedia. I hope I can support you in that effort in my small way. (As an avid newspaper reader, I hope my interests, and perspective will be of some use.) I don't like conflict-- perhaps more than your average person, and so will rarely stick my neck out as far as to make deletions, or edit without consensus. Especially because our opinions sometimes differ, I value your input as a healthy balance to my own. This is a completely unrelated subject, but I noticed your interest Mitt Romney's ancestor's polygamy. I was talking to a friend who is an exchange student at a local university. We were discussing the recent verdict in the Warren Jeffs case. I suppose he sensed that I'm not judgemental (at least I hope I'm not) and mentioned that his father is a polygamist, and that his family in Nigeria are amused by the puritan attitudes of Americans considering human history (according to him) is mostly polygamist. It made me realize that perhaps my viewpoint has been too Euro-centric. Looking forward to hearing from you again, on the candidates' pages, or elsewhere, -R.K.C. Rawkcuf 07:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC)Rawkcuf
[edit] Speedy deletion of Image:Annromney.jpg
A tag has been placed on Image:Annromney.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section I3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image licensed as "for non-commercial use only," "non-derivative use" or "used with permission," it has not been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. [1], and it was either uploaded on or after 2005-05-19, or is not used in any articles. If you agree with the deletion, there is no need to do anything. If, however, you believe that this image may be retained on Wikipedia under one of the permitted conditions then:
- state clearly the source of the image. If it has been copied from elsewhere on the web you should provide links to: the image itself, the page which uses it and the page which contains the license conditions.
- add the relevant copyright tag.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the article (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. The Evil Spartan (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Speedy deletion of Image:Ariau.jpg
A tag has been placed on Image:Ariau.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section I3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an image licensed as "for non-commercial use only," "non-derivative use" or "used with permission," it has not been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. [2], and it was either uploaded on or after 2005-05-19, or is not used in any articles. If you agree with the deletion, there is no need to do anything. If, however, you believe that this image may be retained on Wikipedia under one of the permitted conditions then:
- state clearly the source of the image. If it has been copied from elsewhere on the web you should provide links to: the image itself, the page which uses it and the page which contains the license conditions.
- add the relevant copyright tag.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the article (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. The Evil Spartan (talk) 00:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
