Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen/Archive 2

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Contents 1 **OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar) 2 Communes' names 3 Terminology 4 Hannes Rohregger 5 We are in 2007 already?? 6 Citations 7 This page should be moved 8 Some suggestions 9 Requested move 9.1 Survey 9.2 Discussion 10 CALL TO STOP POLL 11 PROVINCE NAME? 12 **OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar) 13 Sudtirolo? Are we kidding? 14 Move Request 15 Official Name 16 When did Germanic settlement begin? 17 Citation needed 18 Tirolo del Sud 19 Corrections 20 Move South Tyrol to Autonomous Province of Bolzano 20.1 Survey 20.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 20.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 20.2 Discussion

**OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar)

(see below...)

Communes' names

Sorry for giving start to what could be a new dispute. What I find aberrant is the present system used for the names of the towns; while for the province a choice was made, prefering the German solution (all in all the best solution, since Germans are majoritarian), for the towns the weird "decision" was taken of not deciding, with Bolzano-Bozen, Brunick-Brunico, ecc. And while both Bolzano and Bozen are used, Bolzano-Bozen is simply absurd. I propose to use the language criterion to select only one name for all comuni; Bolzano-Bozen would be Bolzano, Brunick-Brunico would be Brunick.--Aldux 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Terminology

Whats the adjective given to describe people from South Tyrol and whats the noun given to someone from South Tyrol?

Hannes Rohregger

H'm, I tried to find something about this guy here, and failed. Anyone has a link? --Tridentinus 14:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

We are in 2007 already??

"The South Tyrolean People's Party (SVP) rejected the proposal, saying this would just create ethnic tensions again. Cossiga made similar remarks again in 2007, bringing in again another bill calling for a solution by letting South Tyrol rejoin Austria."

What is this? This page is so pro-German, it is out of control. That, and now we are describing the future.

Citations

"The proportion of the Italian-speaking population thus grew significantly from 3% before World War I (census of 1910) to over 34% in 1961." Where is a citation for this "fact"? This entire page is almost written without any basis.

Here's an official source, in Italian. Tridentinus 15:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent reference. The only issue I have with this is that "Italian speakers", "German speakers" does not really show ethnic background. Everyone in the US is an "English speaker" for the most part, but they are not English. You can go to these towns and see the tombstones and see both German and Italian names going back centuries, not to just 1910. Also, the origins of many of these people go back to Roman times. Rules have come and gone, as have languages. The people for the most part are of that region, be them in Italian Trento or Italian-German Bolzano/Bozen. Hence you see blonde blue-eyes, dark hair, blue eyes, dark hair, brown eyes, etc. and all different face features. So anyway, where it says gruppi-etnici, it is not quite accurate. This is also a "language census" from 1910, when the land was under the rule of German-speaking Austria. It has to be taken with a grain of salt -- given also the era it was conducted. There were definitely people chased out of the region for centuries, and some people moved in. But it was small, on the order of thousands. The majority of the families in the region have literally been there for centuries. You can simply go to the churches and cemeteries and go through the birth/death records. It is fascinating stuff. You will find a lot of the names going all the way back to Roman origins, in a lot of them at least. take care. Taalo 05:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I know about it, being a Tridentine myself :). And I also know that linguistic survey can give flawed results; but then, how is one to measure linguistic groups then? More importantly, that was precisely what Austria in 1910, Italy in the 60's wanted to know: how many speak this or that language, and where. What do you mean by ethnic group? ;) --Tridentinus 11:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that an Austrian census of 1910 vintage would be reasonably acceptable. The Austrian government never pursued a policy of Germanization (unlike the Hungarian policy of Magyarization), and the Census was put through in part to inform the government of what was going on - the government wanted accurate information, not a propaganda tool (Austria was not known for its high quality propaganda service, at any rate). As I understand it, that census is generally used as a roughly accurate guide for linguistic patterns prior to the First world War. john k 13:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This page should be moved

This page should be moved from South Tyrol to the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. There is no province in Italy with the name South Tyrol. There is a REGION, whose name in German is Sudtirol. Taalo 03:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The historical name of this province is Süd-Tirol. The Italian designations in South Tyrol were never introduced by democratic laws. How does Google Südtirol translate? Simply South Tyrol. Unfortunately South Tyrol is not accepted by many Italians.

Some suggestions

I originally added the following to User talk:Taalo.

What should be considered is the separation of articles. Wikipedia should have articles on the (official) Italian Region of "Trentino-Alto Adige", its (official) subdivisions "Province of Trento" and "Province of Bolzano", and the (unofficial) geographic and historical region "South Tyrol". "South Tyrol" is certainly a term used frequently in English- just take a glance at Google Books. That is why I support the separation of the articles' information into "administrative" and "historical" articles. This historical territory of Tyrol would therefore be separated into the historical regions of North Tyrol, East Tyrol, and South Tyrol, and into the administrative regions/provinces Tyrol (state) and Trentino-Alto Adige, the latter divided into Trento and Bolzano. Similar case are Podlachia (historical) and Podlachian Voivodeship (administrative) or the various subdivisions of the historical regions Styria, Transylvania, Silesia, and Pomerania. Olessi 17:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

JUST SO EVERYONE can see how neutral are friend Gryffindor is in this debate, please refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#South_Tyrol_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Clogs.29 Real ethical of you there buddy. Non-sense names, eh? Thanks for showing your true colours. Oh yeah, I'm assuming that good faith! Taalo 10:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Please give the following:

1. Examples of "every online reference that lists the provinces" which show "Province of Bolzano/Bozen".
2. Naming convention or other article names that support the Province of Italian version/German version scheme that you're proposing.

Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well in fact, the majority of online references will show the Province of Bolzano, without the German name. Being from this region, I know that they actually use both. I also thought this could be a good gesture so we can finally get some consensus where everyone is happy! -- while also being at least 99% accurate. :) Taalo 04:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

English references which show this region as Trentino-Alto Adige and Province of Bolzano. Regardless, I believe we should have the Italian/German name, because this is fair to both groups of the region. Also, written directly into the constitution of Italy, they call the region Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. So at least the Gov't of Italy was able to make a compromise, eh?! Should, hopefully be a compromise so people can chill out, and we can actually get to work on making good pages.. not creating anger. I'm going to cross post websites that refer to the naming convention for the Province of Bolzano/Bozen & the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol. Note once again, that if there is any reference that only has Italian, I full support listing both, which is done in the Italian constitution and locally in the region on road signs, buildings, etc. Let's share finally... Taalo 04:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

CIA World Factbook: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/it.html#Govt

Constitution of Italy (refer to Article 116): http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/it00000_.html

Countries and Cities website: http://www.countriesandcities.com/countries/it/provinces.htm

Province of Bolzano website: http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/autonomy/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf

World Gazetteer: http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gmap&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-108&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=-1956 http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gpro&lng=en&dat=32&geo=-1956&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=x&geo=491419135 http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Italy_Autonomous_regions.htm

Some Google checks:

• 1.3M hits vs. 87,800 hits (or 172,000 hits)
• From here, the first 15 or so hits all show Bolzano.

Sounds pretty obvious to me. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Watch out for those quotation marks: your first google search should be "bolzano province" Italy -wikipedia (11,200 hits) or "province of bolzano" Italy -wikipedia (51,700). Which means that Google prefers South Tyrol. -- Eugène van der Pijll 08:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on, be serious now. Are we really going to get into a debate that the name of this province is not Bolzano/Bozen? Look at the Italian government website. Look at the license plates in this province which clearly read BZ! I visit BZ almost every year, don't try and play games now. This is really mind blowing.. LOL. By the way, if you want to change the search pattern, then you MUST also compare apples to apples by putting in "South Tyrol" to compare, no?? Let's see: "south tyrol province" Italy -wikipedia (488 hits) or "province of south tyrol" Italy -wikipedia (3,350). Oh, now look at that. So, I'm going to assume good faith, and believe that you didn't actually think we were all that naive. Thanks for your input! :) Taalo 08:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"Bolzano" refers primarily to the city, "South-Tyrol" to the province, so "province of" is not needed in the Google test. After all, you are proposing to move this page from South Tyrol (note: no "Province of") to Province of Bolzano. -- Eugène van der Pijll 08:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry to inform you that what you state is just not true. I don't think we are going to get anywhere debating this. Just please look at all the references that have been posted, and then tell me that this is not the Italian Province of Bolzano. I have tried to fair, being I am from this region and have the highest respect for the Italian-German-Roman-whathaveyou history of this area. That is why I am proposing Province of Bolzano/Bozen. I had at least hoped that a basic compromise like this would be enough. I.e., trying to include all sides into this. *SIGH* Taalo 08:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

More and more links *yawn* (simply searching under "listings of provinces in italy") Taalo 08:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC) http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/maps/regions.htm http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/it-reg.html http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/Italy/Regions/ http://goeurope.about.com/cs/italy/l/bl_italy_region.htm http://www.infohub.com/Maps/italy_map_203.html http://www.big-italy-map.co.uk/maps/map-of-trentino-alto-adige-.gif

That the abbreviation for the province is "BZ" does not mean that "Bolzano" or "Bolzano-Bozen" is the most commonly used name. john k 13:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you are aware that there is a name to the region and a name to the province. If you become familiar with Italian provinces, they are simply named after the largest city. Wikipedia should not be a place where we even debate such things that exist as fact. Isn't this the case?? Look at it this way. In all lists of the provinces of Italy, they list Bolzano as a province. In Italian they call it Provincia di Bolzano. In German they call it Provinz Bozen. I've seen a view websites where they attach the region to the name, like Provinz Bozen - Sudtirol. But you have to understand that Sudtirol refers to the region. It is like Saying State of Massachusetts - New England. There is no State of New England. I hope I can convince you of this, though I still am laughing a bit having to argue on Wikipedia what the name of a province of Italy is called. Anyway, I hope my explanation makes sense. take care. Taalo 17:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think we need to ask for a group of neutral admins to help address the issues across the naming of this region, province and towns. I'm perplexed how we are voting on what is the name of a province in Italy, especially with many people who hardly even seem familiar with the provinces of Italy. We should be going by citations, not people's feelings or POV on the matter. Taalo 17:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you explain why the official site has the phrase, "Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" at the bottom? Better yet, can someone explain to neutral people what the issue is here? I've seen three or four different names thrown around with little or no explanation as to why there are four different names! South Tyrol vs. Bozen vs. Bolzano vs. alto Adige, etc. It's hard to expect anyone to give a thoughtful opinion when there is far more screaming and yelling than actual explanation. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks for asking! Because yes, it seems people are just pushing POV instead of actually trying to understand the situation. I just explained this above to john k. Saying Provinz Bozen - Sudtirol, etc. is the same as saying State of California - West Coast (i.e. the name of the state, hyphen, the name of the region). The thing that makes things confusing I guess, is that the regional names closely overlap the actual provinces. So you have Trentino-Alto Adige(Upper Adige)/Sudtirol(South Tyrol). Trentino is the southern bit, and Alto Adige/Sudtirol the northern bit. It is purely the name of the region, which has been clumped together into one name. Alto Adige/Sudtirol, i.e., being different (and debatable) names of that northern region. I think it would be fair to use both. Ok, onto the explanation. In this region there are two provinces (states if you will). The Province of Trento and the Province of Bolzano (Bozen). Provinces in Italy are named after their largest cities, hence the Province of Torino (Turin), which contains the city of Torino (Turin). The Province of Bergammo, which containts the city of Bergamo. I hope I've explained this at least reasonably well. I can try again if I have not. Taalo 17:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
    • On and to better understand the issues here, as I see it. The northern part of this region is a mix of Italian-German. Actually all of it is, this is what makes it such an interesting place. So expecially in the Province of Bolzano, you have the Italian-German names. So Bolzano(Italian)-Bozen(German). Brennero(Italian)-Brenner(German). It is just how it is done, as in Quebec, to satisfy the two groups. I mean, in all reality, all these names have their origins from Rome, just like London (Londinium). From what I gather, people with an Austrian/German POV would like to emphasize the German part. While understandable, this is just not fair to everyone in the region and will create this fight forever. For example, the region is known as Trentino-Alto Adige (in Italian) and Trentino-Sudtirol (in German). Trentino-Alto Adige is what is commonly used in English. By coming on here and trying to change things to Trentino-South Tyrol (which is very rarely used.. and automatically has POV involved because you are favouring the "Sudtirol" naming convention). Now why Bolzano was changed to Bozen-Bolzano... well it follows the same lines I think. Same as how Merano-Meran was switched to Meran-Merano. It seems certain users are insecure. The fact of the matter is that in Italy it is Merano or Merano-Meran (I prefer this). Anyway, in both Italian and German, they refer to this province as Bolzano or Bozen. The - Alto Adige, - Sudtirol, is just attaching the region to the name, as I've explained above. I hope everyone is at least learning something from all this? I've lost a good day of work! Taalo 18:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

(I was typing this in response to wknight94 while Taalo added his, so I'll modify a little to take account of his take on the matter) The problem is, it seems there's no unambiguous English name for the territory in question. In Italian it's called provincia di Bolzano, but also, and I suspect more commonly, Alto adige, and recently Sudtirolo has been gaining more and more ground. In German it's called Südtirol, or Autonome Provinz Bozen-Südtirol ("amtlich" says the German Wiki: officially), but I have yet to see a German-speaker supporting the latter. In the lack of a clear-cut English term, there seem to be different interpretations on how to call the entry, and all with at least some merit. Me, I support South Tyrol as being first of all well-known to English speakers, supported by an overwhelming majority of German speakers and accepted by a sizeable group of Italians, and that pretty covers the interested parties in order of importance (I stand by the philosophy that the local majority matters more than the national majority). Also, it is simple and uncomplicated for people who may use the search feature. On a historical note, the name South Tyrol is grounded in the Austrian (well, Germanic) tradition of naming territories with a proper name mixing with the Italian praxis of naming provinces with the name of the main city. Compare with Trentino and province of Trento (in reality Trentino would be more correct, since there was a Trentino well before a province of Trento existed); both Trentino and Südtirol are traditional names in reality taking precedence over the official names in common usage. The crux is: official names, or used names? Taalo makes the examples of California, and indeed: if you search for it, it is not under State of California, but simply California... Tridentinus 18:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, being rooted in this region, I have never heard anyone call this the Province of Sudtirol/South Tyrol/Alto Adige. The real crux of the matter is that the provinces are Trento and Bolzano. Even if Mexicans in California consider it California, Mexico, this deviates from fact. We are doing Original Research when we try to decipher what the various English, Germans, and Italians think this province is called. As far as I know, this is against the process of Wikipedia. We go by citations, any basic understanding of the provinces of Italy will list Trento and Bolzano-Bozen as provinces. Everything is philosophical. Also my original example with Massachusetts - New England and California - West Coast, did not focus on the "State of". I'm just making the point that attaching - Alto Adige or - Sudtirol to the end is attaching the name of the region. I admit it is hard to keep straight, but there are the names of the cities, provinces, and regions -- and yes, sometimes they closely overlap and create confusion. We can not use this confusion to invent the new Province of South Tyrol, Italy. Again, being rooted in this region and visiting both provinces every year, this is just craziness. :) Taalo 18:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Listen, here is a simple question. When I see English maps of the provinces of Italy, they have Bolzano and Trento. When I see Italian maps of the provinces of Italy, they have Bolzano and Trento. I am assuming German maps will show Bozen and Trento (?). Can we at least find some maps to post on here in English, Italian, and German? I'm quite sure that even the German maps will list Bozen as the province, not Sudtirol. Cheers. Taalo 20:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

More references: Taalo 20:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.pickatrail.com/jupiter/location/europe/italy/italy.html

• How about why the official site has the phrase, "Official site of the Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" at the bottom? —Wknight94 (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, the "South Tyrol" is the region, so it is as the example I was making earlier. It is equivalent to saying the State of Maine - New England. I am open to admit I'm confused why they chose to say Province of Bozen on here, somehow implying Bozen is the English name. I don't know who made this page for the province, and if they have any bias. A lot of people in the region don't even speak English. In fact I only have a couple friends who do speak English well enough when I visit. The entire page makes things confusing though, especially when you go the front page (http://www.provincia.bz.it/) and says, "Welcome to South Tyrol", or "Benvenuti in Alto Adige". That is really like saying, "Welcome to New England" on the front page of the State of Maine's website. Of course, in this case no one would complain since Alto Adige/Sudtirol essentially overlay only this one province. I have no problem admiting this makes things confusing as all heck. But, I'll just have to ask that you all to give me some credit when I try to explain this. I'm just trying to do my best to explain how the cities, provinces and regions are named in this area, because heck, if you are interested in this region from a genuine level -- I'm extremely happy. Anyway, in the end we can vote to call this the Greater Austrian Province of South Tyrol - Gryffindor (sorry, couldn't help it) -- it is still my home, and in fact the people there would get an absolute kick out of this whole war. my best regards. Taalo 20:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case, there should be two separate articles, right? Does the "Province of Bozen" have a separate official site? —Wknight94 (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, there should be two official websites. But since the area/region and province overlay, it is also easy for them to combine it. Though, on the Province of Trento website they don't say "Welcome to Trentino", but it is the webmaster's call I guess. Again, the provinces are named after the major city. So like Province of Trento [TN] has http://www.provincia.tn.it, the Province of Turin (Torino) [TO] has http://www.provincia.to.it, the Province of Milan (Milano) [MI] has http://www.provincia.mi.it. The Province of Bolzano-Bozen [BZ] has http://www.provincia.bz.it. That is how almost all of them are done. Note that these are province names not city names (though they are based off the city names). Towns such as Fondo, Cles, Mezzacorona, etc. are all in the Province of Trento, as is the city of Trento. Same for the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. Bolzano-Bozen, Merano-Meran, etc. are all in this province. The Bolzano-Bozen provincial website does make things confusing though, I definitely agree. I don't know what I can do but maybe point it out to the webmaster. -sigh- But, I think the logic can be bollowed above? Those initials MI, BZ, TO, etc. are what you will find on the provincial license plates too. Anyway, I hope some of you all are at leasting learning something interesting from all this. Taalo 21:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, ok, one more comparison to an US example. It is very similiar to New York, New York, USA. Hence there is essentially a Trento, Trento, Italy... and a Bolzano-Bozen, Bolzano-Bozen, Italy. But there is also a Rochester, New York, USA, just as there is a Mezzacorona, Trento, Italy and Brennero-Brenner, Bolzano, Italy. If I were to send a letter to a friend in Merano, I would write: Merano (Bolzano (BZ)), Italy.. or for short Merano (BZ), Italy. To write a letter to Fondo in Trento, you put: Fondo (TN), Italy. If you put Merano, South Tyrol, Italy, it looks like someone trying to push politics. The same happened with the Northern League. People were writing letters trying to put Padova, Padania, instead of Padova, Italy.. to make a political point. Childish nonsense, in my opinion. Taalo 21:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• That said, if the POV ever ceases and we can get to a nice shared result and actually useful contributions to these pages -- there is so much awesome stuff you all have to know about this region. My favourite is the road that takes you from Trento to Bolzano-Bozen -- called the Mendola. Take that road in a nice hatchback at full speed. :)) Anyway, if people actually visited this region, I'd hope they'd stop this petty nationlistic POV. There is much more interesting stuff to document than this................ Taalo 21:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Sounds great! Don't let this stuff slow you down in editing. Can you find any external references which discuss the difference between South Tyrol and Bolzano? —Wknight94 (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I was just daydreaming about this topic during a meeting (this has got to stop! :). I'll try to put my definite take on things. People can then see this and decide where they want to stand. Neural, or to either side. In my opinion, this region is about neutrality and a mix, one that has made it damn fun (not to mention the natural beauty of the region which blows anything man-made away). Taalo 23:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• Here we go: My hypothesis to why a lot of this debate is going on is the following. If this region was not part of Italy now, but instead was part of Austria, in all likelyhood the Province would be called Sudtirol (aka South Tyrol). If the ethnic Italians would have enjoyed the same rights as the ethnic Germans now do, we will never know. That said, I commend that the German people of the region stood up for their rights, and that we have the situation we have now, the people who have lived here for centuries (Italians and Germans) living in peace. Going back to the hypothetical argument that if Austria had retained control after the breakup of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. If the local Italians would have no say, most likely the province would of been called the Province of Sudtirol (as this is the common way to name provinces in Austria). The cities would of likely retained only their German names: Meran, Bozen, Brixen, etc., etc. As I have ancestors from Austria, I sincerely hope that they would of done a mirror of what exists in Italy now (i.e., naming cities Bozen-Bolzano, Meran-Merano, etc.). But I can only hope and guess. Now, the reality of how things did come to end is that the Italian gov't has control of the region. The Italian convention of naming provinces is by the major city of the province (and I've gone over this a lot above, and I find it hard to see now this is debatable). So, therefore the province (by this simple method) is called the Province of Bolzano (or Provinz Bozen in German). In fact, I find it even harder to believe that any average neutral non-political guy/gal in Bolzano/Bozen will not agree the province is called Bolzano/Bozen. Now, what I find disturbing in all of this, and I'll let you all be the judge, is when I see an insistence by primarily Austrian/German individuals (and mostly all not even from the region) to call the province Province of South Tyrol, the region Trentino-South Tyrol, and work on making the city names either Brenner, Italy or Bozen-Bolzano -- I feel sickened. Why? If you read the basic history I have outlined, I hope you can see that this mindset would be what an extremist minority would hope to convey -- because for all intents and purposes -- it is the naming convention that would of existed had Austria retained this area! Now, I know not everyone who is supporting using South Tyrol is German/Italian/etc., so don't blindside me with that argument please. I'm not trying to generalize or accuse German/Austrians. I'm just pointing out what I have seen. Anway, to me, whose family is from this region, I find this discusting that individuals would try to migrate the names to a would of been convention. Sorry, but that is my opinion. I have absolutely no problem with the history of the region (as long as it is done fairly). My culture is Trentino/Tirol/Tirolese. My background has "Italian" and "Austrian" roots.. though by far if you look in the archives and cemetaries, much of all our roots are firmly from Rome and Latin. This is really a family squable, because the people are all the same. I have Italian relatives that are blonde-blue eyed and look similar to user Fantasy. :) I have others that are dark haired and darker skin. All these relatives have their family tree tracable for literally centuries through the local churches. Anyway, by rights, and going by the rules of Wikipedia the cities should be in Italian, the region should be Trento-Alto Adige to preserve neutrality and the province should be the Province of Bolzano. But this risks a war going on forever, especially from those who have these extreme views I detailed before. So going all Italian is not a good way (and I don't buy this English in English wikipedia -- these places do not have straightforward English names. I am a native English speaker, I have some clue on this!). Going with the ultra-South-Tyrol mode of trying to move everything to how it might of been if the Austrian Gov't would of retained control is even worse --- far worse. Downright horrendous in fact. That is why I have said over and over again, for this special region in Italy, use the Italian-German as has been actually used in the region. The cities can be Bolzano-Bozen or Bolzano (Bozen). The province can be Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano (Bozen). I would prefer to have the region as Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Something that maintains neutrality. People saying that the area is South Tyrol in English when arguing the province should be Province of South Tyrol are either absolutely oblivious to the history and reality of this region or are trying to push through a German POV. Anyway, I hope my small dissertation :) has helped a little bit to understand the cities, provinces, regions, and issues this brings up. The culture of this region is sharing.. everyone needs to back the heck up and realize this, and also think of how this page can be the most neutral and fair. Not an attempt to re-write history through WP or fantasies of the province being part of Greater Austria. Life is too short, doesn't this simple-minded stuff not get old? To the individuals who made it their purpose in life to start this a year ago.. come on guys, go down and visit the rivers and mountains and -- RELAX. regards. Taalo 23:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the region, but I was asked to offer an unbiased opinion and I'm trying to do that. I've read the above discussion but in the event that I've misunderstood something or missed an important point I welcome correction. I also apologise for rehashing things that have been said above.

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) says: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Being unfamiliar with the region myself, above discussion leaves me with the impression that there is no overwhelming consensus among English speakers here (or the discussion would be a lot shorter!) but that 'South Tyrol' may be ambiguous - while many English speakers would recognise it, it may not refer to the same entity that is the subject of this article. Further along in that same policy:

"Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type. Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema... The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards."

Looking at pages cited by Taalo and Gryffindor (Civic Network of South Tyrol, autonomy statute) it is evident that they refer to both 'South Tyrol' and 'Bolzano' (or 'Bolzano/Bozen'). However, the only parts of those pages that refer unambiguously to a province call it 'Bolzano' or 'Bolzano/Bozen'. (The Civic Network site mostly uses 'South Tyrol', but only attaches the word 'province' to 'Bolzano/Bozen' and to 'Bozen - South Tyrol'." This could be read either as naming a province "Bozen - South Tyrol" or a province "Bozen" that is in South Tyrol, as with the 'Maine - New England' analogy offered above. Were it rendered as 'Bozen/South Tyrol' I'd be inclined to the former interpretation, but it's not.

Since the autonomy statute is a more formal document - a translation of a constitution, as opposed to a tourist-oriented site - I'm inclined to give it the most weight, and that one refers unambiguously and consistently to the 'Province of Bolzano' with no mention of 'South Tyrol' at all. Based on that, I think the most 'proper' name for an article about this province would be Province of Bolzano, and if Province of Bolzano-Bozen or some such is more palatable to locals, I'm not going to argue with that. (Hyphenation would be better than a slash to avoid making it look like a subpage.) I also agree with Olessi that it would be useful to have a separate article for the region South Tyrol and explain the distinction between the region and the province. --Calair 02:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with everything said really. Thanks, it is quite a professional review really. I think I'd still prefer Province of Bolzano-Bozen, most in the hopes that we could all get along. I also like making the cities like this: Bolzano-Bozen, for fear that we would vote for only going with the Italian mames -- which is not really fair. As far as Trentino-South Tyrol, well, I'm coming around to the argument on this.. though I still do not like how it was moved to this page without any discussion. Also, to me it feels we are doing OR by making the decision it is the term commonly used in English. I still do believe Trentino-Alto Adige is the most used in English, which is maybe the main point afterall? Thanks again. Taalo 03:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, there's an important distinction between OR that is contained in an article (forbidden by WP:OR) and meta-OR that influences how we write an article, but isn't itself included in that article (not addressed in WP:OR AFAICT). When adding facts to an article, it's easy enough to leave out the ones that can't be verified - it's okay for articles to be incomplete. But Wikipedia also has other policies that need to be followed, and we can't always do that without a bit of OR on the talk page. For instance, editors often need to interpret copyright law to figure out whether including a particular photo is 'fair use' - this really is a form of original research, and those interpretations should not be offered in an article about copyright law, but if we insisted on a legal ruling on every last photograph we'd never get anything done. I might raise this on Wikipedia talk:No original research since this is the second time that's come up recently. --Calair 06:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Gonna bail for a bit. I've spend way too much time this past day and a half on this. I feel like I have talked too much also. :) I assume this process will be discussed at least for a week or two. I'll check back later. Just hope an actually valuable discussion/learning experience comes out of this -- for everyone (me too :) Taalo 04:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• • (copied from Trentino-South Tyrol): I'll provide this link I dug up. http://www.trinstitute.org/ojpcr/1_3kag.htm This does show that there were roughly 73,000 Italians that moved up to Bolzano-Bozen to help build hydroelectric plants. The only thing I can feel happy about this lousy time was that it appears the majority of "Germans" who were going to emigrate, ended up staying afterall. At least this is good to know that no one was cleansed out -- but there does appear to be many new families who moved in. I guess this fits with what I've seen in the churches/cemetaries at least -- that the original people have stuck around. My only point of contention then is that I still disagree with this strict term of "German" or "Italian" -- often based on language. I still believe the people of Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol are a people.. and the "German" or "Italian" is actually a lot due to the rulers who have come and gone. Also, the people are definitely a mix of Roman, Germanic, etc., etc. -- so I really just can't agree that there is a "German" people in Bolzano and an "Italian" people in Trento. All in all, the cultures are almost identical.. and a lot of the dialects (that are actually used more than Italian or German) interweave. Anyway, I hope you all take this history lesson in good faith. I for one learned something more about what happened to my neighbors/cousins over the hill. Regardless, lets try to come up with a neutral position that respects this region and the people -- and indeed the new ones that arrived during those bad days some 70 years ago. That said, my current feeling goes to: cities: Italian-German (this is multiethnic Italy); using the proper Province of Bolzano-Bozen (with a page or section describing South Tyrol/Sudtirol) and maybe we do this page as Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol? Then we follow what is in the maps of the World (i.e., we do not go against the grain of what is really out there on maps, britannica, etc.), while respecting the Tirolese culture. I don't think this name is too confusing. How do you all think? Ok, now I really got to get work done.. damnit. :) Taalo 05:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"Although the region "Trentino-Alto Adige" was not abolished, its name was changed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" and most of its important powers were taken away and transferred to the two provinces South Tyrol and Trentino." I really hope this author is giving an accurate account. So does this mean both names are in effect? Also, "Until the present, German and Ladin speakers did not distinguish between Italians in South Tyrol and Italians in general. Most of the people did not even distinguish between the Italian people and the Italian government. There is no awareness of the two distinct levels of the conflict. But Italians in South Tyrol can no longer be seen only as the invaders and as tools of the Italianization politics. After living in the province since the 1930s, or at least since the 1950s, they consider South Tyrol to be their homeland too. Their offspring were born there, went to school there and work there. Italians became, over the years, Italian-speaking South Tyroleans." Anyway, that is really a great historical article, if it is accurate. I don't know, I've given credit to the Trentino-South Tyrol folks, without them actually doing any research. :) I still think though, to be fair with what is on the maps, etc... more and more Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol makes the most sense. Again, with the cities, we really should use both names. The province, it is hard to argue with what exists.. i.e. the Province of Trento and the Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I like Olessi's idea the best to have a subpage or something describing South Tyrol. Man, for sure I did not like what the Austrians did in the 1800's to the Italians of Trentino... and no more do I like what the Italian Gov't did to the people of Bolzano-Bozen in the 1900's. I hope you all who are from this region can at least realize that many of us have been around here back when we were even all under Rome. I still consider all the people of this region brothers/sisters/cousins. regards. Taalo 06:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

OBVIOUS ANSWER Just a quick observation - Wiki Commons uses the OFFICIAL name of "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" for the Category. Seems pretty sensible to see that the name of this province is NOT "South Tyrol" - it is "Bolzano" (and "Bozen" as the German alternate name). Just a thought - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trentino-Alto_Adige Rarelibra 03:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

CALL TO STOP POLL

• I personally don't see this getting us anywhere. In my opinion, people are mostly voting along "ethnic" lines. We need mature, knowledgable and neutral admins to come in here and help mediate this. I thought we were getting some place with Olessi's idea to have a regional South Tyrol page and this page for the Province of Bolzano. Arguing over the name of the province to me is just surreal. It is no different than if I came on here and witnessed people arguing about the name of the State of New Mexico -- and then having a dozen Mexicans come in and vote that it is more commonly so-and-so, blah blah blah. Anyway, again, we really need someone else to come on here that can be presented online references, etc. and help solve this -- once and for all. This is not about what everyone feels the province and cities should be called, it is about what in reality they are called. Taalo 20:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We don't argue what the name is (nobody disputes the official name) but whether the official name of the province should be the title of the article. For most country articles, the official name is not used as the article title, but we follow the naming conventions instead, which tell us to use the common name (which we tried to find out here, using Google and other things).

I find the idea of a "province" page and a "region" page interesting, but as the two things cover pretty much the same ground, I don't really see how the two can be meaningfully separated. Could you explain how you would envision such a split? Kusma (討論) 21:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

See Kusma, in my opinion there are quite a few people who are indeed disputing the official name. Besides comments I've seen on this very page, you just have to look at the modifications done throughout Wikipedia. On pages such as Provinces of Italy, Bozen-Bolzano, Brenner, Italy, etc., etc., etc., where the province is explicitly stated as South Tyrol. I don't know if this was through misunderstanding generated by the South Tyrol page, which already has the glaring error of stating the Autonomous Province of South Tyrol, or if was by intention of some to try and (ab)use Wiki to rename this province via Internet. I sincerely hope it was the former!! I hope as a student (and I use student in the general meaning of a life student) of mathematics, you can see that this is hardly logical. My opinion would be to use the Trentino-Alto Adige/Trentino-South Tyrol page to go over the regional history (in one can only hope an unbiased and relaxed manner). The Province of Bolzano page can focus on the province. Right now it is almost a duplicate version of the Trentino-South Tyrol page. It would sure be nice also to have both Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano-Bozen focus on non-political issues, you know.. like about the culture, food, and wonderful nature these places hold. But, well, that is just me... I like sun, wine, and speck. Some others seem to enjoy politics more. Taalo 21:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I mean, look at this on Google, "Province of South Tyrol" wikipedia. We have essentially invented a new province on Wikipedia. Look at how often people base this term now on Wiki as a reference. o_O This is just flat out -- irresponsible. Taalo 22:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Jeez, and of course it doesn't help matters when the webmaster of the provincial website has in English (http://www.provinz.bz.it/english/overview/autonomy_statute.htm), "The second Autonomy Statute provides the Province of South Tyrol (and the Province of Trento) with far-reaching independence vis-à-vis the Region and the State.". Then in the very next sentence saying, "The most important powers of the Province of Bozen - South Tyrol are:"... Seriously now, you all don't go run and use this as an excuse to say this is correct -- it isn't. I think I've been fair in this debate to quickly point out online documentation that says things either for or against. And note that on the same webpage, their other translation (http://www.provinz.bz.it/lpa/autonomy/autonomy_statute_eng.pdf) has the correct "Provinces of Bolzano and Trento". *shakes head in amazement* Taalo 23:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

PROVINCE NAME?

Bolzano was finally held in consensus. When are we going to address the same with the Province name? Rarelibra 18:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

**OFFER TO MEDIATE** (please respond to Lar)

Please read Lar's offer and respond accordingly: Talk:Trentino-South_Tyrol

Sudtirolo? Are we kidding?

Is it possible to delete that embarrassing translation of Südtirol into Sudtirolo? I can assure you that no Sudtirolo exists in Italian, it makes neither any grammatical sense because Italian it is not an agglutinative language as is German, and at most you can talk about Tirolo del Sud. I'm aware some references for "Sudtirolo" do exists, but most of them are about a camping site. Sudtirolo is only (mis)used by some german-speaking south tyroleans when talkin with other italians, but just as a direct translation of their home province's name. It has no recognition in the rest of the country. I really don't care about ethnic disputes or something, just to point out that no Italian can hear about "Sudtirolo" without having a good laugh. --Fertuno 18:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, according to a few sources, "Sudtirolo" is becoming more accepted in the area/region. Rarelibra 18:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to know what source? On Google, Alto Adige gets 100 times more references than Sudtirolo. I think my fellow-countrymen should begin to be a bit tired of others telling them how to call their provinces. Calling it South Tyrol on the English Wikipedia is more than proper, but no way you can call it like this in Italian. It is Alto Adige, full stop. --Fertuno 19:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I find it very disturbing for you to say "Calling it South Tyrol on the English Wikipedia is more than proper". This name is an English translation of "Sudtirol" - the region is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol", thus a proper English term would be "Trentino-Upper Adige/South Tyrol" and the province is "Bolzano" (or "Bozen", as the German translation), NOT "South Tyrol". Rarelibra 19:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"Südtirol" is frequently translated into English as "South Tyrol". "Alto Adige" is never translated into English as "Upper Adige." This is a false equivalence. john k 20:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, john k, "Alto" is "Upper" (or "high", depending on the context) in Italian. Therefore, if one is translating "Sudtirol" to "South Tyrol", one can also translate "Alto Adige" to "Upper Adige" (or "High Adige"). Not a false equivalence at all. Rarelibra 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Rarelibra. The Adige river is what is used in English. Also, Tyrol is an English version of Tirol/Tirolo. Sud means South in German (and in Italian, for that matter). Alto means high/upper in Italian. Sudtirol has been translated to English as South Tyrol, more or less because it is easy to do (i.e. Sud -- South). It is making nearly the same step to say Upper Adige really. Both are actually informal translations. Had the Nord-Adige (I know Fertuno, it is very bad Italian :), then it would of been easier to say North Adige. Anyway, if you say South Tyrol, you have to say Upper Adige really to be consistent. Taalo 20:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, no. I know that "Alto Aidge" means "Upper Adige". The point is that the region is never called "Upper Adige" in English. It is called "Alto Adige," or it is called "South Tyrol." By your logic, We should have to call Mainz "Mayence" in order to keep it consistent with calling München "Munich". (Or, for an Italian example, we'd have to call Livorno "Leghorn" in order to justify calling Firenze "Florence"). One name is translated into the English equivalent, the other isn't. That's the way it goes. No false equivalences. john k 16:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Er, good morning. My logic was that really neither Upper Adige or South Tyrol is correct. It is also entirely debatable if South Tyrol is most often used in English. I'm fine though with calling the area South Tyrol. In my experience though, this place is usually just referred to by its provincial name Bolzano (i.e., the Province of Bolzano) in English. What is for sure is calling things the Province of South Tyrol is flat-out wrong. take care. Taalo 17:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Understood. My main point was that I really don't like false equivalence, and pretending that the commonly used in English "South Tyrol" is equivalent to the never used in English "Upper Adige" seemed ridiculous to me. In terms of the actual specifics, I'd tend towards the view that the region should be at Trentino-Alto Adige, the province at Province of Bolzano, and the South Tyrol article should be about the broader region, rather than about any administrative unit. john k 17:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you say. It is like having an article on the Midwest and then one on the State of Ohio aka Ohio. I wasn't trying to make a equivalence, per se, of Upper Adige and South Tyrol. I was just making the point (and it is my opinion) that they are both fuzzy translations. Taalo 19:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

YES!!! This is exactly what we are trying to have as the naming conventions. Rarelibra 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK "South Tyrol" and "Province of Bolzano" refer to close to 100% the same area. I don't think it would help much to have two separate articles, that would be like having both "Aosta Valley" and "Province of Aosta", or "District of Columbia" and "Washington, D.C.". Markussep 18:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't be the same, actually. "District of Columbia" and "Washington, D.C." are separate - the federal district is coextensive with the city of Washington. Poor analogy. And the Aosta Valley may not necessarily include ALL of the Province of Aosta (I would have to reference a map). The best point was stating that "South Tyrol" is an area that may encompass some or all of the Province of Bolzano - and is historic with a greater Austrian majority - German speaking (not German majority, a difference). So the South Tyrol article would have historical reference to the food, wine, culture, music, influence, etc while the actual provincial article would have some of the same information, yet be for the province proper. I'm quite sure there are examples of this separation already somewhere on English wiki. Rarelibra 18:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't you agree that if the area of South Tyrol is the same as that of the province of Bolzano, we only need one article? Note that South Tyrol was never a separate entity before the First World War. Markussep 19:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Markussep - what I agree on is this - that if the area of South Tyrol and the Province of Bolzano are the same, that the name be changed to reflect the proper name of the province (or something to appease like the suggested "Bolzano-South Tyrol", etc.) in order to include the proper reference. If the emphasis must be on the "South Tyrol" name, then no, I think there should be two articles, then. But yes, it does seem redundant. So maybe you and I are on the same page? :) Rarelibra 19:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Let Lar find the best name for the article, but at least we agree that there's no need for two articles here (provided they're the same). Markussep 19:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. Trentino redirects to the Province of Trento. As well South Tyrol, Südtirol, Sudtirolo, Tirolo del Sud, Upper Adige, Alto Adige, etc. can redirect to the Province of Bolzano. Then just very clearly keep the tri-lingual names in the body of the article. But yeah, let User:Lar have the fun. ;-) Taalo 19:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I should clarify. I agree with you saying we can go with one page. The rest is just my opinions. :-) Taalo 19:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya, Tirolo del Sud would be more proper Italian afterall. Let's just take out Sudtirolo. Or should we put in Tirolo del Sud? Even though in Italy they called it Alto Adige, there is recognision of the joint Tirolo culture. I'll take out Sudtirolo for now. Fertuno, I also do not agree with your statements that Trentino-South Tyrol is the obvious English name for this region. Taalo 20:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's all simpler than how appears. Tyrol is an historical german-speaking region of Europe. Nowadays, it's half Austrian and half Italian, the Italian half being roughly equivalent to the Province of Bolzano/Bozen. In most languages the local name of the region was taken from this root, and there is nothing wrong about that: it was the language of the majority, after all. Still today in Italian we call many Eastern european cities from their German name (e.g. Danzica for Gdansk, from Danzig; Breslavia for Wroclaw, from Breslau; Stettino for Szczecin, from Stettin), or many Turkish cities from their Greek name (e.g. Smirne for Izmir, from Smyrne; Adalia for Antalya, from Attalia and so on). In Italian, the local name of the region is instead about a geographical feature, and was taken from an old term coined during the napoleonic rule of the area. Again, there is nothing wrong about that: in a newly annexed province, someone thought was not acceptable to use the old enemy's name. Today there aren't enemies any more, but the sole Italian name of the area still is Alto Adige, while the sole German name still is Sudtirol. And the German-derived name is still used in most other languages, included English. --Fertuno 12:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Along these lines, we're not talking about what the Italians call Wroclaw - in English it is still Wroclaw. Szczecin is still Szczecin in English, Gdansk is Gdansk, Izmir is Izmir, and so on. We're trying to resolve the English equivalent of this province, whose proper name is "Bolzano" ("Bozen" is the German name, NOT the English translated name). The English translation is still "Bolzano". So the proper name of this province needs to be "Bolzano". There should be a sub-article (or separate article) about South Tyrol (the area). But this won't have anything to do with the proper name of the province (and province article). They may be somewhat interrelated. I think the best example I had was for District of Louisiana - which is now Arkansas. You don't see people trying to rename it as "District of Louisiana" for historic purposes. The proper name is "Arkansas" given by the US government (as is "Bolzano" given by the Italian government). So this information needs to be split into the two articles - one for the province, one for the area. Is that sufficient? Rarelibra 16:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The official name of the province is nor Bolzano neither South Tyrol. It is Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige (in Italian) and Autonome Provinz Bozen-Südtirol (in German). So unless you want to call it United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just South Tyrol is absolutely proper. --Fertuno 16:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, come on now. It is simply the Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano. You don't say Provincia di Firenze - Toscana, Provincia di Pisa - Toscana, Provincia di Siena - Toscana, Provincia di Trento - Trentino. Just like in the US you don't say State of Ohio - Midwest, State of Indiana - Midwest. You just say Ohio and Indiana, and they are in the Midwest. Taalo 19:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The official name should be the Italian name, translated into English (thus, "Bolzano" or whatever form is decided upon), not the German translation. The United Kingdom official name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" which is shortened to "United Kingdom". If you wish to use the same analogy, the "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano-Alto Adige" (Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige) would be shortened to "Province of Bolzano" or "Bolzano", NOT "South Tyrol". Your analogy is incorrect. Rarelibra 17:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

NO: The original names in South Tyrol are ALL german--Martin Se 14:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh my goodness, what absolute and utter rubbish. If anything, names like Meran are from Latin (i.e., Rome), not German by any stretch of the imagination. You have to remember that the Germans came into this region and Germanized it themselves -- long before the relatively tiny period of Fascism. Don't revise history based on the past one to two hundred years. Jump off the ethnic/nationalistic bandwagon; it does everyone a lot of good. :) my regards. Taalo 05:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, historically German-speaking in the last few centuries. But the area below the Brenner pass has always been more Roman. Certainly Trentino, which was part of the Tryol region, has always had Italian roots. So, it is not so complicated, as you say, but it is also not quite that simple. :-) I also have no problems with the various names. The thing that makes this area around the Brenner pass so interesting is specifically that it is Italian plus Austrian. Anyway, my only disagreement to what you say is that Trentino-South Tyrol is what is commonly used in English. I have seen the far majority of references use Trentino-Alto Adige. I think using South Tyrol to describe this area adjacent to the Province of Bolzano would make a lot of sense though. Like a page maybe South Tyrol (historical). Taalo 18:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Trentino has been aggregated to Land Tirol only in the XIX century. Before that, there have been almost eight centuries of proud independence. Sure there was confusion even before then, but already in the XVIII century the local cultured class wouldn't hear of that. The most known example is in a sonnet by Clementino Vannetti, containing the famous verse Italiani noi siam non tirolesi ("We're Italians, not Tyroleans") Tridentinus 16:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tridentinus, why don't Soles (Val di Sol) and Nones (Val di Non) not have language rights like Ladin? There is more speakers of Nones probably than Ladin.. hah. It was interesting for me to realize that Ladin and Nones, Soles, etc. are all related. I always just considered them dialects of Italian, where in fact they are dialects of Italy. Anyway, I can fairly well understand both Italian and these dialects/languages, what have you. Taalo 19:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and with regard to Tirolesi. I'll still argue that we are both. By now the Tirolesi culture is one that is definitely an Austrian-Italian culture with roots in Ancient Rome. Taalo 19:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Move Request

It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#Steps for requesting a controversial page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 10:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Official Name

The OFFICIAL ENGLISH NAME of South Tyrol is

 Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol

I'am going to give instruction about your wrong namings to our legal office--Martin Se 14:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What, are you threatening all of us by legal action? The provincial offices are controlled by the political party in control of the province. The names that people come up with on the website are therefore obviously biased -- not to mention incorrect in many instances. This explains why we find half-a-dozen different names on the website. Instead of giving instructions to your legal office about Wikipedia, maybe contact Rome?? *rolls eyes* Sorry to say this, but you make me feel uncomfortable you work in the provincial office. Hopefully it is just setting up linux computers and messing around with websites... Taalo 02:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I see on the website of Seville that it is named "Sevilla". Why don't you move Seville to Sevilla?--Supparluca 14:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Emes - looks like it's time you read their document about naming conventions - Autonomy Statute, says here:

1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia, Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
This is according to the Italian government. Rarelibra 15:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what this (I mean Emes' comment about the legal department) has to do with the article name. Yes, what we claim to be the official name should be correct, but the article name can be something completely different: the commonly used name in English. See Bangkok, for instance. You're not really suggesting that the provincial government should sue wikipedia, are you? Markussep 16:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Markussep - apples to oranges here. Bangkok is the translation of a single name. South Tyrol is the translation of ONLY the German name. Rarelibra 18:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Bangkok is not a translation, and yes, it's probably not the perfect example. It doesn't matter from which language South Tyrol comes etymologically, what matters is what is used in English. "Vienna" probably comes from Italian, and "Florence" from French, but that's really irrelevant. Markussep 18:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, the Province is referred to Bolzano or Bolzano-Bozen in English. Some refer to the area as South Tyrol. Even this name comes from the Germanisation/occupation of the region. Should we go back to the Romans or Rhaetians? :-) Yes, much I'm saying is tongue-in-cheek. take care. Taalo 02:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

At the moment, I think most of us agree that the first part of the translation should be Province of Bolzano-..., analogously to the city called Bolzano here on the English Wikipedia. The choice for either Alto Adige or South Tyrol as a translation is difficult, but should be made on the basis of proper argumentation. Arguments that South Tyrol has been German for the past centuries will not hold, I agree. Arguments in favour of Italian names because of Roman history are nonsense of course (yes Taalo, I know you were not serious about this, but I would like the point anyway :-)), as Y-chromosome research has revealed that most of the people in The Netherlands living south of the Rhine River have proven to be of Roman ancestry, eventually, and we are not using Latin names for all towns, villages, etc. south of the Rhine River either. The fact that South Tyrol is now part of Italy does not change this somehow, in my opinion. The usage for either Alto Adige, Upper Adige or South Tyrol should not be made based on pro-German or -Italian arguments, but on the usage in English language in the past. So let's sum up the facts and some logical assumptions. As, left alone some English speaking mountaineers climbing the Dolomites, only a few English speaking people have had contact of importance with this area in the past centuries, I think we can conclude that names for this region have not been applied for in the English language until the Great War. When I remember well, it was April 26, 1915 when the allied forces assigned the regions now known as Südtirol and Trentino to Italy in the secret Treaty of London, provided that Italy would declare war to Austria. I do not know the exact text of this Treaty, but one can assume that in the assignations the region now know as Südtirol has been described by the allied forces as the southern of Tyrol or Southern Tyrol. As Tyrol has not been divided into several regions until the Saint-Germain Treaty of 1919, we can conclude that Südtirol, Nordtirol and Osttirol were non-existing official geographical names until then, as well as were their translations into other languages. The term Alto Adige refers to the upper part of the Adige River. The Saint-Germain Treaty determined that the new Austrian-Italian border should be drawn by taking into account the flow areas of the Inn River and its tributaries on Austrian side, and the Adige River and its tributaries on Italian side, which actually meant that the division would be made mainly by the Ötztal Alps. It was therefore a logical choice for the Italians when they started their italianization politics (and started banning out the Tyrol-suffices) to designate the new obtained area as Upper Adige, as it included the upper part of the flow area of the Adige River. However, Alto Adige is a literally translation of the German Oberetsch. In German language, it is a custom to make a difference between the upper and lower parts of rivers and their accompanying valleys, compare Oberengadin/Unterengadin and Oberinntal/Unterinntal. In these cases, however, it is not the complete flow area of a river and its tributaries, but only the part of the main river and its accompanying main valley which is designated as Ober or Unter. So actually, Alto Adige is a pars pro toto, as it does not comprise the complete area of South Tyrol. Besides that, as far as I know, no other upper parts of rivers in Italy are called Alto ..., except over here, supporting the thesis that it has literatelly been translated from the German Oberetsch. Because of these reasons, I would prefer that it is translated into South Tyrol in English, as it is at the moment. Tubantia 12:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL, ok, that sure comes off as a bit arrogant there my friend. :) You know, German is not the only language that says Upper and Lower. Besides the term Alto Adige, there is also Alto Po, Alto Tevere (Tiber River), etc., etc., etc. But, I'll keep it in mind from now on whenever I hear someone say Upper Mississippi; maybe it is all from the Germans afterall? Anyway, I'd say the Romans named this river many centuries before the Germans started to colonize the area -- hence the Latin name Athesis. :-) Also, remember one thing when you talk about the Italianisation politics: these were politics of a couple decades. Don't leave out the the centuries when the Germans colonized and germanized these areas. History is not as one-sided as you may like to think...heh. The time now is to share, finally. BOTH SIDES! regards. Taalo 00:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That is an excellent explanation, but I (for one) argue that proper usage is with the governmental name for the province, or district, or state, or aymug, or whatever unit that it is named by the respective government. With your logic in mind, we should be calling Arkansas the District of Louisiana because of the historical content and literal translation from the time. Over history, things change (including names) and people adapt. There is a refusal of adaptation here. It was very logical to suggest that the region have an article for South Tyrol while the province proper have the article for the actual province. Again my example of many regions from Poland which now reside in Cyrillic-language areas - such as the town of Lwow which is now Lviv. Go there, everything is labeled Lviv and they speak Ukrainian (and Russian) - and they don't hang on historic markers of "we used to be part of Poland". With the logic above, one could argue that all of the original Polish territory (from the Baltic to the Black, as it is said) should have the original historic names - or go further when the Romans owned so much and as Taalo argued to have all the restored Roman names. It is ridiculous. Rarelibra 14:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I must tell, I do not know the issue on Arkansas/District of Louisiana. Anyhow, I think there is a difference between the example you state over here (the Lwow/Lviv-issue) and South Tyrol. People over there still say "We used to be part of Austria." South Tyrol is still an area in which most of the people speak German. Everything is labelled German. And above all: German is an official language in South Tyrol. I do not know the status of Polish in the area around Lviv, but I doubt whether Polish is an official language in that area. Anyhow, the Ukranian situation you are talking about cannot be compared with the situation over at South Tyrol, when you ask me. If you would have read carefully, the way you are arguing above (about going back in history) is exactly the way I do not want to argue; I agree that it would be ridiculous to go back to Roman names. I am trying to argue in what would be the most proper English translation, but for that you need history. Because of the argumentation written above, I would plead that the official English name for the Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige/Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol/Provinzia Autonòma de Balsan - Südtirol should be Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol, and not Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige or Province of Bolzano-Upper Adige. I do not mind when one article would be focussing on the current province borders, its government, etcetera and another on the history, culture, etc. of the region. Tubantia 21:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe the official English name should be Province of Bolzano or Province of Bolzano-Bozen. There is no area/region name appended in the official (and better known) title of this province, full stop. Even in Trento, and other provinces in the North they say "we were once part of Austria". Your point is a non-starter, sorry. As a general question, why is it almost impossible for Germans to not see the other side of the situation on here? Taalo 00:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Because they are still holding on in denial. Yes, it is one thing to still speak/utilize a language in a region (hence, many signs in the US that have Spanish on them, or my having to 'choose' a language for my ATM or automated operator choice) - it is another to cling to names that have been officially changed by the governing body (semi-autonomic or not). In the event of the Ukranian example, no they probably don't still speak or use it - but that is the point here. Tubantia - I do agree with you that the name "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" is a very happy medium indeed - certainly not perfect for one side or the other, but that is the point here. So my point is - so what if they say "we used to be part of Austria - things change, history changes, and Lord knows that Europe has experienced a great number of changes (parts of France and Germany exchanged, parts of Germany and Denmark exchanged, the list goes on and on and on). I must thank Taalo for involving me in this - I have learned a great deal so far about a small part of Europe that I never knew had such a diverse existence before. I will visit there one day. Rarelibra 01:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

As a general question, Taalo: when will you stop calling Dutch German? I already told you that my German ancestry goes back 11 generations; I have now deleted it, just to make sure this misunderstanding will disappear. By the way, it is a misunderstanding that the German speaking people in South Tyrol feel German; they feel Tyrolean, i.e. Austrian. And about my "non-starter": yes, I know things change, but people over here are sometimes comparing complete different situations over here, and that's the only thing I wanted to make clear. One should bear in mind, that a lot of people in South Tyrol still have nationalistic, Tyrolean feelings and rather would like to be part of Austria instead of Italy, which is not the case in the Alsace, Poland, Czech Republic, Ukraine, or many other regions for which borders have changed after the Great War. People living in Trentino and other northwest Italian regions (former regions of Austria-Hungary) do not have these feelings, so my "used to be part of Austria" is not a complete non-starter, I disagree. My only plead over here was that IF the official (Italian) name of the province is Provinzia di Bolzano-Alto Adige (what I have been thinking for years already), the only correct English equivalent, bearing in mind the Bozen-Bolzano issue of the city of Bolzano over here at Wikipedia, should be Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol. When in official documents of the authority of the autonomous province one is speaking about a shortened version, like Provinzia di Bolzano or Provinz Bozen, I would have no problems with naming the article after the shortened version. Tubantia 08:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Good lord man, relax. This is a long and drawn out debate, I personally can't keep track of where your 11 generations of ancestors are from. You act as if I go around chanting Dutch are Germans. Regardless you just state you are an ethnic German afterall -- sweet irony, isn't it? :P First of all, you are assuming that a majority of people in Bolzano/Bozen want to be part of Austria. This is just that, an assumption. Do you have polls that show the people are so nationalistic? Just because you hear the vocal minority doesn't necessarily mean they speak for everyone. I'll venture my own assumption that the majority of people are happy and don't concern themselves with this sort of nonsensical politics. Anyway, the correct (official and well known) name is Province of Bolzano or Province of Bolzano/Bozen. There is no area name appended to the end of the province -- even if it is shown incorrectly on the provincial website. We don't put State of Louisiana - Gulf Coast or Province of Trento - Trentino. It is unnecessary complicated. What are your intense feelings over this, if I may ask where you must constantly plead? I'm just curious. regards. Taalo 22:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that some people in South Tyrol would like to be part of a country instead of another, which is not the case in other regions, shouldn't influence the naming of these regions in Wikipedia. To please ethnic groups is not a goal of an encyclopedia, right? Maybe we can write in the body of the articles that some Southtyroleans would like to be part of Austria, if that is true.--Supparluca 10:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

No, I agree, but the fact that South Tyrol is an autonomous province in which both languages are official languages should, in my opinion, be taken into account when naming these regions in Wikipedia. Because of the fact that South Tyrol is an autonomous province, I believe this is a different situation compared to a lot of other situations stated before. People saying that "It is in Italy, so the name should be Italian." are, in my opinion, as short-sighted as those saying that is should be German, because it was originally Austria, because they ignore the autonomy status of the province which has been accepted by the Austrian and Italian governments and the European Union. But again, I am trying to be as neutral as possible over here; I have only been trying to make a good translation of what I thought was the official name for the province. Tubantia 11:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

And before it was Austrian, it was Roman. So lets go back to the Latin names (yes, I am joking, but the statement it was Austria is just funny from a historical point of view). Another irony is that many of the people in Bolzano/Bozen are in fact more Roman than Germanic. They were essentially Germanized and there was also some people who moved in from Germanic areas of the North. Names like Meran, Brenner, etc. are all Roman/Latin. They don't have the vowels at the end because older forms of the Latin-based languages in Italy did not have vowels (such as Latin itself). The local "Italian" dialects say these names often without the vowels as well. So the irony in the end if that Meran is a Latin/Italian-based name that is used in German. That is the important part, it is used in German. So all this arguing is just over using an older or newer form of an Italian/Roman word... *rolls eyes*. You'll therefore get to the more "original" names if you simply look at the local "Italian" dialects such as Ladin, Nones, etc. These are closer to Latin and drop off many of the vowels.. but are fundamentally Romance languages. :-) Anyway, I like using all the names, the dialect, the Italian, the "German"... Taalo 22:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

What can I say about all this NONSENCE

1. the lemma shut be South Tyrol, beiing the most comonly used english Term for this prince
2. In the article stut be referred or to the official name (as i wrote earlier) or to the lemma name

You can't go back to the roman time because South Tyrol in those time did not exist

The first name of South Tyrol was: Land an der Etsch und im Gebirge (country on the Etsch and in the mountains / Alps) (Italian didn't exist an there ware none Italians in this country)

Later the name South Tyrol meant the region South of Bozen including Trentino--Martin Se 12:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Martin, that is complete rubbish. Are you seriously trying to claim it was "Germans" that first settled these valleys? The irony in all of this is if you can trace your own family far enough back (meaning if they have been in the area for centuries), then their roots are most likely Roman (i.e. Italian). I'm not going to get into a ridiculous battle of who was where first, but saying Italians (i.e. Romans) did not exist in this area originally is indeed laughable nonsense. I do not understand your ultra behavior with regard to all of this. I've never seen people from Bolzano/Bozen act like this... relax man. Taalo 19:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought the region of Trentino has been referred to as Welschtirol when it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

(to Emes, Taalo and Tubantia) Is this pseudo-historical discussion useful in choosing the name used in the English version of wikipedia? Bolzano was under the Roman Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and now is under the Italian Republic. We know this, and it's not important now.--Supparluca 14:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Note Supparluca that when I bring up the past history, it is very tongue in cheek. Meaning that I'm not completely serious, I'm more bringing this up with the irony that this area has been Italian/German for literally thousands of years. Arguing that it is more one than the other is just hilarious. It goes back to your very good quote a few weeks ago, which I still mean to post on all these pages. :-) regards. Taalo 19:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Supparluca - I agree. Let's not go into a history lesson. Emes - you need to bone up to the fact that yes, the region may historically be German-speaking, BUT the region is now a part of Italy. The Italian government has put forth a naming convention that is here to stay. Time changes, things change - but sometimes people don't change (or don't want to change). Don't stress out so much and keep the discussion focused on reaching a consensus for the name. I think "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" is very well acceptable to appease the dual-speaking area, don't you? Rarelibra 14:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree as well. By saying that taking one of both positions (that is has originally been part of Roman Empire or Austro-Hungarian Empire) is short-sighted, I already tried to end the pseudohistoric discussion. Nobody reacted on my comment however, that the province is autonomous. Should that not be taken into account? The region may geographically be part of Italy, the Italian government has not as much influence in this province however as it has in others. Tubantia 18:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The federal government has more influence in the Province of Bolzano/Bozen than it does in the Province of Naples. LOL. Anyway, yes, the province is autonomous. This is the federal gov't giving freedom to the local governments. It is not fair to use this as an argument to imply it is not quite a part of Italy. That is like taking those extra rights and then giving a slap back in the face. Taalo 19:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Note that I was bringing up the history to point out the irony in these discussions. Sorry if you don't like to discuss it. The province is autonomous, but so is Trento, so are quite a few regions in Italy. It should be included in the page, I don't see how that should change the name of the province though. o_O Taalo 19:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In this case we use the most common name in English. This issue has been talked over and voted upon. A simple "South Tyrol" suffices for this case. Gryffindor 16:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this issue is still open. This is part of the mediation that will determine what the proper name will be. And we're not talking a common name, we're also talking an official name as well as a translated name. There have been several statements as to why "South Tyrol" isn't a good enough solution. Rarelibra 16:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion the most common name in English is actually Province of Bolzano (aka Bolzano). Just like Province of Trento (aka Trento). Some have said South Tyrol is common in English. As a native English speaker, it is the first I've ever heard it used. I'm all for having it to describe the historical area of South Tyrol. It looks like only on the English (and German) wikipedia this convention has been adopted. I did notice that Emes has gone everywhere trying to enforce his POV though. :-) God, this mediation is so needed. :-) Taalo 19:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's autonomous, also as defined in the official Autonomy Statute, stating (as I mentioned above):

1. The Region consists of the Provinces of Trento and Bolzano.
2. The communes of Proves, Senale, Termeno, Ora, Bronzolo, Valdagno, Lauregno, San Felice, Cortaccia, Egna, Montagna, Trodena, Magre, Salorno, Anterivo and the district of Sinablana within the commune of Rumo in the Province of Trento shall be joined to the Province of Bolzano.
Rarelibra 18:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but this is quoting of one of the sources. The Italian statute which can be reached over here, the German statute which can be reached over here both speak about Bozen/Bolzano-Südtirol/Alto Adige. We cannot deny those kind of documents just because some of us might think that there could be a large influence of German authorities. I think there is not enough homogeneity in sources to make a clear cut decision. What to use as official source? Tubantia 20:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm - I could use the same logic that everyone else is using. Your first source (here) is in Italian, your second source (here) is in German. The source I quoted (here) is the English translation of both. Since we're all talking about English translations, well... it kinda goes to figure that the same argument could conclude that the English document is as the accepted name, translated. Rarelibra 20:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. That PDF is a translation of a legal document, a document that you can actually gain some real insight into the reality. I'm sorry to say, but in my opinion if you try to find truth from the provincial website, you are running into a lot of information that is being hacked out by maybe little wannabe politicians. LOL. :-) Taalo 21:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Why using one document of the website, and rejecting all other ones (even English ones using other names) on the same website? If you refrain from these documents, refrain from the English as well, because of the same reasons. There is no homogeneity in names at the provincial website, nor at the English, nor at the Italian, nor at the German pages. Tubantia 21:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well my friend, I think once again we are basically debating something we agree on. LOL. What I was trying to say is I'd rather just not use that website altogether because of the huge confusion it brings up (see my post below). I was just adding the addendum that I would probably be ok to use [5] though, if need be. regards. Taalo 23:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the information on the provincial website should be taken with a rather large grain of salt, considering we have users involved in this debate who may have influence on what is on that website. This is what leads me to say that the website should essentially be taken off the table of this debate, with the exception of the PDFs on there that are indeed legal Italian documents. Markussep did some good research a few weeks ago, and from what we could tell it seemed there was a legal change in the regional name from Trentino-Alto Adige to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. The proper name of the province is Province of Bolzano-Bozen. It appears some politicians wanted to append the area (Alto Adige/Südtirol) name to the province, but this did not happen. Why some try to push this (what I feel) political goal on the website? Well, that is up to them I guess. Anyway, there is actually plenty of homogeneity in the sources if you look at the typical resources for such information. Take a minute and just go over to our friends at Britannica ([6]) ([7]) It is pretty straighforward. Taalo 21:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL, Britannica has one mistake. They put Bolzano as the capitol of the Trentino-Alto Adige region. :-) Everything else looks ok so far. It is nice how they list the Province in Italian and then the city names in English (i.e. Venezia and Venice). Taalo 21:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no right to say wath is written on our homepage

The official name of the region has really been changed as Markussep discovered

The official name of the province is and will be the one i stated earlier

The roots of my famaly and of 75% of the South Tyrolean/Altoatesini are not Italian at all

Almost all italians have been in South Tyrol less then 90 years.

The most spoken language in Alto Adige is German

South Tyrol is known in the world as South Tyrol.

This may be different for locations and rivers--Martin Se 16:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Martin, can you give me your definition of "Italian"? I am first Nones, second from Trentino, and overall a person of Italy. My family has been around here for many more than 90 years - to say the least. You've mentioned many who are not "Italian". Who are these darn Italians then? Is there a Val di Italia somewhere I don't know about? Are the guys over in Torino the real Italians? Yes, there were some people of Italy who joined our neighborhood 90 years ago from various places in "Italy". But the people that were here before our German neighbors showed up a few hundred years ago were already people of Italy. Anyway... Taalo 19:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Get a grip, Martin Se. The area is located in Italy. Doesn't matter if Italians have been there less than 90 years. Doesn't matter if the most spoken language is German (this is English Wiki). Because we can point out the assigned name by the Italian government for the region is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Sudtirol", for the province is "Bolzano/Bozen". This is even evident on the English-translated documentation available on the official provincial website. What you are doing is denying the ownership of the area (we are not denying your heritage, by the way) and asking for a biased POV translation to be used as wiki standard. We are asking for a neutral alternative. Please be reasonable. Rarelibra 16:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, ironically -- if you really understand the matter, there is even a self-denial of heritage as well. Depressing. :-) Taalo 19:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You two need to stop picking on User Martin Se who clearly is a native of the region, start believing in assume good faith and observe Wikiquette. Wikipedia has clear rules regarding the naming, which is to 1) use English and 2) official names are not used. Therefore a simple "South Tyrol" is fine for this article, since it talks about the region in general. No need to overcomplicate matters, and move on... Gryffindor 12:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, ok... 1) I am also a "native" of this region; do you feel people who are not "natives" (such as yourself) have some sort of lesser say?? 2) Assuming good faith goes both ways and telling others not to pick on a user when you yourself have recently harassed users such as Rarelibra -- well, let us try and not be hypocritical, ok? 3) Many came forward and unaminously agreed to go through a mediation process graciously offered by Lar. This is the second time you have come on here and implicitly tried to end this naming process and just have us move on. That, hmm -- stuff, just ain't gonna fly. Taalo 01:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree: "South Tyrol" is not fine at all because we speak about an administrative division, and for consistency with other articles about Italian provinces, the title should begin with Province of. South Tyrol would be only suitable for other types of territories, like an historic region, or a linguistic one. Juiced lemon 16:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

My point as well. Simple logic tells me to use Province of Bolzano or (my preference) Province of Bolzano-Bozen. This fits with what is used on really all the other Italian provinces. South Tyrol can simply redirect to the page, the same way as Trentino redirects to the Province of Trento. Logic sometimes takes awhile to sink in though.. hah. Though, maybe we should just name the city Bozen, use the Province of South Tyrol, emphasize that "Italians" were really never here until 1919, forget about the Latin/Roman origins, and just move on. *snicker*. ;] Taalo 01:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Very good point, Juiced lemon. But many don't seem to get it. And Gryffndor, explain exactly how we didn't assume good faith and where we were violating wikiquette. Because it seems, with your own statement of "move on" you seem to be borderline. Get used to this - we are not going to move on, this is still in discussion for a consensus on the name. Should the name change, it will be because of a consensus of what we all decide on. And it's funny that you should point out that he is a native of the region, because you failed to recognize the same fact when there were Italian-speaking natives of the same stating the proper naming (such as in the case of Bolzano). We will not "move on". We are here for the duration of the discussion. Rarelibra 23:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Violating Wikiquette here is having a differing opinion with regard to him and his. :-) Anyway, I look forward to having some good discussions with Martin after he turns down the Wikistress. I think there are a lot of misconceptions all over the place, even from "natives". Certainly I've learned A LOT through all of this, indeed changing my ideas on some matters. One interesting item recently is Martin thinking that Nones is an Italian dialect and Ladin is an actual language. This is what many people who speak Nones themselves think, but it is a lot down to innocent ignorance. These languages are closely related and Latin-based languages of Italy; Provincial Latin of the Alps, as it says on one page. Like I've said before, the Italian language is Italy's Mandarin (i.e. the National Language) and is just one more derivative of Latin. Nones and Ladin are like Hakka and Min, local languages (often referred to as "dialects"). Anyway, Tridentinus, correct me if I'm wrong. It looks like in Latin: Bauzanum, in Nones: Bolzan, in Ladin, Bulsan, in Italian: Bolzano. Then in Latin: Merona/Merania, in Nones: Meran, in Ladin, Meran, in Italian: Merano. Taalo 01:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

When did Germanic settlement begin?

"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." I do not contest this statement, but it would be fine to have sources because this seems to be contested by some other editors. See also Talk:Merano#the magority of Meran is german speeking   Andreas   ^(T) 20:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure some of these people showed up and joined the neighborhood. But it isn't so black-and-white like some others would lead themselves to believe. If some number of "Bavarii" settled in during these centuries, it doesn't mean that the "Latin" people evaporated. Also, I believe those sentences were pulled from the German Wikipedia... so they are maybe just a bit towards a German POV. The thing is also, it would be extremely difficult to go over the history of millenia and try to figure out where everyone really came from. Taalo 21:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a very good reference about the history of Europe, written by Norman Davies (a well known expert in the field of European history) titled Europe: A History. I will research this and get the facts straightened out. Rarelibra 21:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You can read the Historia Gentis Langobardorum von Paulus Diaconus (VIII Century AD). There it is described the occupation of part of South Tyrol by the Lombards. Anyway, consider that some of the lateral valleys of this region have been germanised much later. For example the Val Venosta (Vinschgau) has been ladin up to the XVIII century (and most of the toponyms there are crearly ladin). alex2006 11:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

More interesting information Alessandro, thank you. Indeed "Lombards" occupied and moved in. Though everyone should remember that doesn't mean the local people disappeared, nor that it was overrun by hundreds of thousands of "Lombards". Germanic people came down to all of Italy, and good for them I say. :-) Anyway, again with the term "Ladin". I don't see it any different than the term "Nones", or "Napalitano". It is a local group of Latin speakers. Taalo 18:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ciao Taalo. No, Ladin is a - neolatin - language, which up to the XVII Century have been spoken in a great part of the central alpine region, north and south of the Alps. Remember that Dante put the linguistic border of Italy "sopra Tiralli" (Schloss Tirol, north of Meran).

Still today a variety of Ladin (Rumantsch) is one of the four national languages in Switzerland, and - together with German and Italian - one of the official languages of Grisons (see for example [8]). The problem with Ladin in south Tyrol was that the speakers there were protestants, and closely tied with the Ladins of Grisons, which were protestants too. This forced the Austrians to germanise (better would be catholicise) the Vinschgau. The ladin speakers which today remain in Italy live in four valleys, Gardena, Badia, Ampezzano and Livinallongo. The Statute of South Tyrol protects this language too. Moreover, the "dialect" spoken in Friuli (furlàn) is also a variety of Ladin. Ciao, alex2006 06:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite quite understand what you said no to though. :-) Everything you said so far I think is pretty standard (Ladin a derivative of Latin; there are other languages similar to Ladin; it is a protected language in South Tyrol, etc.). Anyway, it appears Nones is also a language similar to Ladin, Romantch, etc. I don't know if it is correct to say any of them are varieties of Ladin though. Ladin is but a member of this group of Latin languages. Taalo 10:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually what the linguists say (at least here in Helvetia ;-)) is that Romantch (which can be divided in five groups), Nones, Furlan, etc., are all varieties ("dialects") of Ladin. About Nones, you can read [9]. The problem - for the Ladin speakers - is that a koinè among them is up to now missing, and the result is that German and Italian are conquering the ladin linguistic space faster and faster. Alex2006 12:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

As a grammar that's a very useful link... but ugh, the proposed transliteration of Nones would be a catastrophe should it ever get recognition. Tridentinus 17:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed

"Prime Minister Winston Churchill called the annexation of South Tyrol by Italy a huge mistake."

I removed this sentence from the article until someone provides a source.--Supparluca 09:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

good call. Sounds like POV pushing. Rarelibra 22:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, a big surprise that would be! Taalo 23:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I send an email to The Churchill Centre [10] about any quotes, this is the reply I received: (Quote) In his book "The Aftermath", Churchill describes the Treaty of Versailles. After World War II, in 1946, Churchill was asked, by both Robert Boothby and Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, to become involved in the question of the South Tyrol, which was still claimed by Austria. Martin Gilbert writes in the official biography (WINSTON S. CHURHILL, vol. 8, p 250):

"On August 17, Churchill told Boothby that he hoped he had 'some Labour men' on the fact-finding Committee that was being formed. 'I must leave the development of the campaign to you,' he wrote, 'but pray keep me informed.' To Viscount Cecil of Chelwood, Churchill wrote that same day about the Tyrol: 'In the vast confusion of Europe it is indeed a Touchstone,' and he added: 'Such baffling situations as those which now confront us can only be dealt with selectively. One way is to make up one's mind which is the true point of attack on the long front of evil and bewilderment.'"

In sum, there seems to be no doubt of his sentiments that the South Tyrol should be returned to Austria in the aftermath of both world wars, although in 1946 he was out of power and unable to direct British foreign policy. (end of quote)

From Churchill, THE WORLD CRISIS IV "The Aftermath", London: Thornton Butterworth, 1929, pg. 228-29 (Discussing the treaty of Versailles) "The secret Treaty of London had promised Italy the line of the Alps. But in the South Tyrol, the land of Hofer, four hundred thousand German-speaking people of the upper valley of the Adige lived south of the Alps. Italy claimed her Treaty rights, and England and France were bound. President Wilson was free, and his problem was painful. On the one hand stood the principle of Self-determination; on the other, the Alps, the Treaties and the strategic security of Italy. In April President Wilson withdrew the opposition he had hitherto maintained, and the Southern Tyrol passed to Italian sovereignty.

It should be added that in all the treaties constituting the frontiers of the new States precise and elaborate provisions were inserted and accepted providing for the protection of minorities, their good treatment and equal rights before the law. Italy as one of the victorious Great Powers was not called upon to assume a treaty obligation for the protection of minorities. She instead voluntarily declared her solemn resolve to accord them the consideration and fair play which were their due. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol may therefore base themselves directly and in a peculiarly personal sense upon the faith and honour of the Italian nation."

Gryffindor 09:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Tirolo del Sud

"Never" is an exaggeration: Google gives 1990 hits, compared to 2,430,000 for "Alto Adige" and 214,000 for "Sudtirolo" (just for the record).  Andreas  ^(T) 15:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sudtirolo is becoming more and more visible. And while it is perhaps more common in Trentino, I can't see a reason for it not to be listed as an alternative in the same way that Welschtirol is listed on the German wiki as synonimous to Trentino. On the other hand, Tirolo del Sud is something even I remember ver very few printed example for. A search in the Tridentine library database yields less than ten titles containing it out of 27 results, while Sudtirolo produces 107 titles containing the word. Even detracting double entries that's a good number. Tridentinus 18:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I confirm that Tirolo del Sud and Sudtirolo are never used in Italian. They are rarely (very very rarely) used by German speakers when they speak in Italian, like when a non-Italian speaker says "scienza" without "i"; the Italian word is still with the "i", and the other version should not be present in an encyclopedia.--Supparluca 08:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I would think Tirolo del Sud might be used in Italian, no? How else would you say Tirolo del Nord, Tirolo del Est? It seems in the local languages they might say Trentin-Alto Adige/Sud Tirolo (or Sud Tirol?).. Tridentinus will know better than me. Taalo 19:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, you could use Tirolo del Sud, although even under the Hapsburgs the most used name was Tirolo meridionale (closely followed by Tirolo italiano): it would be understood in Trentino, but still not many in Italy are much into the quite nuique history of Trentino-South Tyrol. As for Austrian Tyrol, it is simply Tirolo, like the village and castle. If you want to, let's say, "disambiguate", you can always attach to the various zones words like settentrionale or orientale.
But i 'must' return on Sudtirolo, because it's plain wrong to leave it out: I could point to local monthly "Questotrentino", which apparently uses Sudtirolo as editorial policy and even hosts a regular column yclept "Lettera dal Sudtirolo", and to Paolo Pombeni's introductory essay in the sixth volume of the 2005 "Storia del Trentino"; the long note on pages 38-39 explain why he chose the "less traditional" Sudtirolo. Is that proof enough that it's legit Italian? :D Tridentinus 02:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I have friends from South Tyrol who confirm that "Sudtirolo" or "Tirolo del Sud" if you will is increasingly used, as Italian-speakers from that region identify themselves increasingly as an integral part of that region. I think the Google hits of Italian websites using that term specifically is proof enough: [11], [12], Italian Wikinews, Corriere della Sera, [13]. Italian websites even use the word "Tirolo del Sud" [14], [15], so what's the point in denying the obvious? Gryffindor 17:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you add "Sudtirolo" in Italian, then you have to add "Alto Adige" in German, and also "Südtirol" and "Alto Adige" in English. I don't like this type of solutions, I prefer to use good sense. And what's the relation between using the word Sudtirolo and identifying yourself as an integral part of the region?--Supparluca 22:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I don't quite follow your thought of arguments. Sudtirolo is used in Italian, read through the links. Gryffindor 15:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I live in Bolzano/Bozen, South Tyrol and my mother tongue is Italian and I can affirm that:

• Sudtirolo is a synonim for Alto Adige - in the Italian Dictionary you'll find both 'altoatesino' and 'sudtirolese' with the same meaning. Italian-speaking media in South Tyrol use both.
• South Tyrol is the most common name in English - my English-speaking friends say 'South Tyrol', at school if we're speaking about what's on in my region with the English teacher we all say 'South Tyrol' and for example in the UK South Tyrol is well understood. Nobody knows about 'Upper Adige'. Skafa^{Tell me} 01:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, no one said that "Upper Adige" is commonly used in English!--Supparluca 12:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added "Sud Tirolo" to the possible names in Italian. Here are the proofs.

- a link to the De Mauro dictionnary of Italian: [16] where we find the adjective "sudtirolese" (i.e. inhabitant of South Tyrol) with "Sud Tirolo" in the definition

- a few speeches [17] and [18] by Italy's former Italy's President Ciampi, where we find "Trentino Sud Tirolo". --Adriano 18:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sud Tirolo is sometimes used in Italian, but Sudtirolo certainly is not. --Fertuno 15:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Corrections

First things first. I'm a total newbie at wiki. I just came across this article and noticed some things which need correction.

• Area: 7,400.43 km2
• Density: 65
• Population: 482,650 (2005)

more figures can be found here: http://www.provinz.bz.it/astat/publ/publ_getreso.asp?PRES_ID=69870 "South Tyrol in figures - Autonomous Province of South Tyrol"

• Postal Code. 39100 is the code for Bolzano-Bozen only. the code for the area is 39*** (Merano-Meran 39012, Bressanone-Brixen 39042 ... check http://www.poste.it/online/cercacap/

• "The capital of the province is Bolzano." is not correct. The correct form is: "The capital of the province is Bolzano-Bozen." the ladin name for "Bolzano-Bozen" is "Bulsan" therefore you could argue that the trilingual form is: "The capital of the province is Bolzano-Bozen-Bulsan."

ciao —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.199.21.19 (talk) 18:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Feel free to correct the info if it is true. Gryffindor 21:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)