Talk:Proto-Indo-European religion

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 WikiProject Religion
Religion Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Start This article has been rated as Start on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Mythology Portal
This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology .

This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia.
Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents

[edit] The sumerians?

I've noticed, several times, that the world tree + slaying of snake/dragon-myth(s) were very common among the sumerians. If people are sure that the axis mundi-myth is protoindoeuropean; doesn't that mean that the sumerians were indoeuropeans too? But the fact, though, is that they weren't at all - rather Dravidian, or something. Another alternative - the indoeuropeans (and the semitic people of akkad) copied the sumerians, and thereafter spread the myth? Or mayby the myth is just fundamental for most pagan people...//Charlotte

Considering we have an article on this, and one on Proto-Indo-European (although that is currently part of Indo-European languages), I think it might be wise to make an article series on the Indo-Europeans: their culture, religion, language, etc. Any thoughts? -Branddobbe 08:48, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)

I have made an article on Indo-European which I have intended to be a neutral article giving links to both the language article and the religion article. What do you think? Wiglaf 10:37, Mars 9, 2004 (UTC)

Wiglaf, I've rewritten the first paragraph, splitting it up into a few, trying to provide a sufficiently balanced point of view, indicating both the difficulties in reconstructing such a primeval religion along with the positive evidence for it. I hope you like it. Martijn faassen 21:35, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I like it. Wiglaf 08:37, Mar 30, 2004 (CET)

We the Indo-Europeans, closely subsequent descendents of the original Takers, created our wheat-goddess that rewarded us with plentiful harvest and our thunder-god that punished us with lightning bolts, thus ensuring our destiny forever battling nature. We ate from the Apple of Discord and spread our totalitarian agricultural "civilization" to unsuspecting peoples who had previously let the old spirits govern their lives. Our legacy includes writing, commerce, cities, automobiles, recorded music, wealth, famine, democracy, politics, science, genocide, philosophy, logic and mathematics, which we will one day gladly forsake for the old spirits.--Georgopoulos, 22 June 2004

The articles on Danu(both of them) suggest a relationship. The same goes for Ymir/Yama. - JeffBobFrank 05:44, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing the thought-process here

The results are less interesting than the techniques for arriving at them would be, which are scarcely offered. The inclusion of Eos-Auroroa-Eostre (!) shows how easy it is to stray into fantasies in this kind of speculation. Can this entry be improved, or is the idea basically flawed? --Wetman 12:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

hm, certainly you accept Eos-Aurora? The Eostre connection is tenuous, of course, but not extremely far-fetched, in my view. dab (ᛏ) 09:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Why is Zeus, rather than Uranus, associated with Dyaeus Pita? Uranus and Dyaeus Pita are both gky gods from whom the other gods are descended, and both are married to an earth goddess. - JeffBobFrank

Presumably the name "Zeus" is related to "Dyeus" and "Uranus" isn't.
'Strue. The genitive form of Zeus is "Dios", that of Ouranos is Ouranou. BTW, I'm going to remove some of the mythology stuff that belongs to comparative religion rather than Indo-European myth. The Dogandpony 21:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
True. Dzeus is an alternative spelling, cf. Dyaeus Pita, Ju-piter. Hypatea (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Plthivi Mh2ter (Tkon)?

Who are Plthivi Mh2ter and Tkon. I've never heard of them, and google searches for Plthivi or Tkon don't shed any light on the matter. I assume that Plthivi is a theoretical Proto-Indo-European name, but the only sources on the web that seems to mention her is this one (or ones that are identical to this one though I'm not sure who copied whom). Tkon gets lots of hits, but none of them seem to have anything to do with an earth goddess. Are there any sources for this page?--Heathcliff 03:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

yes, they are the reconstructed forms of Sanskrit "prthivi mata" and Sanskrit ksham / Hittite takkan, Greek khthon, respectively. tkōn should properly be dgh'ōm, a very early ("Indo-Hittite") form the more familiar PIE form would be gh'ðōm. You can only find so much specialist information with google, sometimes you have to resort to books :) dab (ᛏ) 09:17, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Obviously. That is why I ask for a source. You seem to be knowledgeable about these matters; could you please provide sources for this information?--Heathcliff 22:26, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
do you mean the gh'ðōm or the dgh'ōm form? the former is in Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch (or any etymological dictionary of the languages mentioned above). The form before thorn-metathesis will be in any introduction to Indo-European studies. There is not really much controversy here. Accounts of how the metathesis took place exactly, or whether it should be called a metathesis, will vary, but the basic facts are pretty much universally recognized. dab (ᛏ) 11:00, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd just like a source for the information on this page. You seem to know a lot about this subject, you could just let me know where you got the information if you want. If it's universally recognized, I don't see why providing a source should be to much trouble. Could you please provide at least one source on proto-indo-european relgion that supports to information on this page? Thank you for mentioning Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch, but it's hard to get useful information out of dictionary. I have yet to find anything in it on Plthivi, Dghom, or Tkon. Also the Wilipdeia entry on it says it is outdated, and a review of it on Amazon makes the following claim:
In no case can the materials in Pokorny's IEW be taken as raw data. Onomatopoetic words are over-represented, and unfounded etymologies or improbable semantic groupings are not seldom. Using this material for statistical purposes, or browsing it with an interest in general semantics, or picking roots or words in order to compare them with words of other language families, is bound to be very misleading.
Is it still considered reliable?--Heathcliff 13:12, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
look, exactly which point do you want to have referenced? I'll quote a coupe of works on IE myhtology, but are you interested in a particular point? Do you want information on a particular form, or rather on mythological implications? When I say the gdhom word will be in any introduction, I'm serious, it's one of the most widely discussed and best understood words, there is no way a basic introduction will miss it. I am not working on this article full time, you know. I don't know if you are disputing something in particular, or if you're just curious, but can't be bothered to go to the library yourself. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
A source on the dghom word would be fine since that is what I've been asking about, but more general information on the infortmation on this page would be useful as well. You say that gdhom would be discussed in any introduction. That's great, that's exactly what I'm looking for: could you please name just one of these introductions? Also I was interested in your opinion of whether or not Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch was reliable. Do you have an opinion on this? If you have IEW could you look and see what page gdhom is on and let me know. I still haven't found it, but it may just be spelled differently.--Heathcliff 12:57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to sound impatient, but you did realize the IEW article points to the Leiden online version, didn't you? Here is a link for you, [1] (I'm sorry, but you'll have to scroll down yourself). Pokorny is quite reliable, and to be taken seriously. He doesn't have much Anatolian material, and doesn't accept laryngeals, so you'll need additional resources to come up with a "contemporary" opinion (e.g. Rix' lexicon of the PIE verb, and Mayrhofer's Indo-Aryan dictionary), but it's a very good place to start. Concerning introductions, there are a couple of good ones, but I'd recommend the one by Oswald Szemerényi (English translation 1996). dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I do not need a link to IEW. When I said I could not find dghom (or any of the other spellings you've used) in IEW it was because I had looked. What did you think I was talking about?? Thank you for citing Oswald Szemerényi. I'll see if I can find his book.--Heathcliff 19:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
and I gave you a link, directly to the lemma g'hðem-, g'hðom-, I mean, what more can I do? They transliterate the palatal as g^ rather than g', but that can hardly be the problem, no? (c.f. PIE) dab (ᛏ) 10:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, your reply made it sound like it was a link to IEW, you didn't mention it was a link to the page itself. I have to say at this point I don't see the reasoning to lead to the conclusion that the Proto-Indo-Europeans worshipped an earth goddess who is a fore-runner to various bronze age godesses. It seems a linguistic link between the words for earth as been used to reconstruct a theoretical proto-indo-european word for earth and that the idea that Mother Earth was worshiped as a godess just seems to be slapped on at the end. But I don't actually know that this is the case. There may be ample evidence of a proto-indo-european earth goddess. I've just got to find it one way or the other. I've found a couple of books that aren't nearly as outdated as the two you suggested, and I may order them since I haven't found them locally. Perhaps then I'll be able to get some answers to my questions. It may be some time before I can get back to this page, but hopefully I'll be able to add to it and provide some actual sources.--Heathcliff 13:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

btw, "Plthivi" is really an epitheton. it means as much as "She who is flat", more or less "the wide expanse", but female. Dghom otoh is the proper word for "Earth", but not particularly when imagined as a female goddess, just "Earth". I suppose gods needed to be addressed obliquely, so it would be blasphemous to address a libation to "Dghom" (*speculation alert*) dab (ᛏ) 11:03, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Plth2vih2 Mh2ter (Dg'hōm) is believed to have been the name of (Mother) Earth, see Prthivi. 
Another name of the Indo-European Mother-Earth would be *Dheghom Mater, as in Greek Demeter, 
Albanian Dhe Motë, Avestan Zamyat, Slavic Mat' Zemlija, Lithuanian Žemyna, Latvian Zemes Mate.

I wonder whether *Plthivi really is a more plausible proto-word than *Dheghom Mater, considering the latter has a lot more attested cognates. 惑乱 分からん 15:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Interesting discussion, but I can't find *tkon in the article. *Plthivi is a lot closer, superficially, to Latona and Pluto than *Dhegom is. Isn't it, 惑乱 分からん? Hypatea (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proto-Indo-European religion vs. Indo-European religion

I've noticed that Indo-European religion diverts to here. Wouldn't it make more sense for these two articles be seperate from each other in the same way Indo-European languages is a seperate article from Proto-Indo-European language? This page would continue to deal with the reconstruction of hypothetical common roots between individual attested belief systems, wheras Indo-European religion would be a more general article on the attested belief systems themselves. Would this be a valid (from a "scholarly" point of view) distinction to make? --86.135.217.213 04:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

No - as per Indo-European, "Indo-European" is sometimes used in the meaning of "PIE", e.g. "the Indo-Europeans domesticated the horse". There is no such thing as a "Indo European family of religions", except you mean the various religions of Indo-European speakers, linked to from this article (is Celtic Christianity or Germanic Christianity an Indo-European or a Semitic religion??) -- the term "Indo-European religion/mythology" typically refers to the subject of this article, the religion/mythology of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. dab (ᛏ) 09:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
dab is correct. PPIE religion would be some Nostratic thing from 10,000 years ago. It's conceivable, with difficulty. PIE is the same thing as IE in many cases. PIE is a better choice when it comes to reconstructing pantheons and myths. Hypatea (talk) 17:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] god vs. God

Satanael, we have the convention to use uppercase God for the monotheistic entity, and lowercase god for polytheistic male deities. Please use lowercase god here, since PIE religion was clearly polytheistic. dab (ᛏ) 13:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Did I use God with a capital "G"? If I did, then it wasn't intentional and was an "editorial"(pun intended) oversight, as I'm quite aware of the fact that PIE religion was polytheistic. :) Satanael 15:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Books

I was wondering, do anyone here know the best books to buy to get a general overview of Indo-European scholarship and studies, its religion in particular, and as well as of the current discussions in the field. Those here who edit this article, as well as the other articles on the Indo-European topic seem pretty knowledgeable in the field, and I'd like to atleast get an overview of the general consensus, especially when it comes to the different gods of the various Indo-European mythologies and the deities within the PIE pantheon from which they originated. It would be nice if, atleast one, contains info that show how various deities and spirits are connected to other Indo-European cognates and counterparts, and if it contains any archaeology(as I'm going to study anthropology, I consider at least some archaeology a must). I'm particulary interested when it comes to deities such as Dyeus, Perkwunos, Paxuson, as well as any info on the god of death, as well as any possible cognate to Celtic Cernunnos. And preferably not any of those heartattack-providing 100$ tomes. I've looked around for a number of books, but I'm not sure what the best ones to get are. I realize that this may be asking to much, but as I'd really like to know more about it, I would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance. Satanael 22:30, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Marija Gimbutas has a lot to say about IE religion, but most of it is biased and based on circular reasoning. Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins by Colin Renfrew might be a good introduction. Hypatea (talk) 16:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

A Tripod site does not constitute adequate referencing, no matter how good it is. Satanael's question (in Books, above) is a very good one and I would also be interested in having it answered. I know Jared Diamond's 'The Third Chimpanzee' is where I was first exposed to my basic knowledge of PIE, but that isn't an appropriate resource either--it's a book about evolution. Placing the request for sources at the head of the document is far more likely to attract someone who knows what they are doing. Certain editors seem to want to keep it at the bottom of the page, presumably because they view this page as "their own". Fine, whatever. Have fun. The Dogandpony 06:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precisions about modifications that I have made

Beside *Peltawi, I have added her another name *Dheghom *mater (*dhghom) [cf, "Indo-european vocabular" by Xavier Delamarre] and other gods, sun-god and moon-god(dess).

"Poseidon" as the "husband of the earth" or "lord of earth" is absolutely not sure. Another etymology would "master of the waters". Greek "potis" means "husband, lord, master" and eveng "god" as the feminine form Potnia for goddesses in mycenaean religion. Then "potis-don" is the "potis" of the don. "don" may refer to indo-européen *danu, "river". Then "potidon/poseidon" would be "the master of the rivers", "the master of the waters", become "the god of sea". As the old Neptune in Roma was not originally a god of sea but the god of the lakes, sources and waters.

I think you'll find 'Poseidon' was a theonym borrowed by the Greeks. *danu, *san and ne/dne are all IE roots for rivers, but I think this is coincidence of morphemes at work, despite the appearance. Potis is pati, lord, but again, perhaps coincidence. Poseidon and Atlas can be seen as the enemies of/early competitors with the proto Greek tribes, as Solon learned in Egypt. Hypatea (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I started to merge this article 2 Aryan religion, but after realizing how active it is, decided to discuss it 1st. Aryan religion (970) gets far more google hits than Proto-Indo-European religion (561), which is rather a clunky name. Indo-European religion (981) does slightly better, but I prefer Aryan religion because it is short and sweet.

Either which one, they should all go to the same spot. Sam Spade 16:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Erm... they're clearly different things. The term Proto-Indo-European specifies the language and culture of the common ancestor of various languages; Indo-Aryan is a subgroup of this. The Indo-Iranian term Aryan is already overloaded in Zoroastrianism, Vedic civilization and C19-20th definitions of race. Conflating it with the Proto-Indo-European religion implies a sense of identity that isn't proven or even appropriate to this religion. Generally, using the term Aryan is outmoded or minority, with similar problems to the romantic use of Achaean as a Greek dialect. Read thoroughly the article Aryan, especially the sections on Linguistic Terminology and beyond.

Even if they were the same, I don't think you could make a decision on definition based on a Google war. Perhaps Aryan religion could have a more explicit link, to Proto-Indo-European religion with an explanation of its difficult usage.

--Mark 19:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

As the above editor said, they are two different things - Aryan religion is a descendent of Proto-Indo-European religion. Suggesting they should be merged is like saying that Proto-Indo-European language should be merged with English language because there are 85,900,000 google results for "English Language" but only 15,100 for "Proto-Indo-European language". --Krsont 18:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

there should be no "Aryan religion" article. Either the intended meaning is "Proto-Indo-Iranian religion", or "Indo-Iranian religion" (including historical descendants). The article fails to show evidence that the term is in use at all. I'll make it a dab page. dab (ᛏ) 19:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
agree with dab. Aryan doesn't mean IE or PIE anymore, not since 1945 or so. Hypatea (talk) 17:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

It amazes me that we have such a complex article devoid of all references (not including a side note reference). Can some of the original contributers of the article come forward to provide sources? It's sort of decrediting the article to leave it referenceless.--The ikiroid (talk/parler/hablar/paroli/说/話) 22:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Merge

I think this page should be merged with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesir-Asura_correspondence

[edit] How shall I read "Hors and Messiatz"

Please, can somebody check and correct this Russianized form of the Proto-Slavic deities, if they really existed (I am a Slavist but have never heard of them, however, it is possible that they were preserved until latest among Eastern Slavs). In the article, the Russianized name of the moon is wrongly put as "messiatz", whereas it should be *měsęcь. At first, it reminded me of Messiah! Messiatz (mesjac) means 'moon' in modern Russian. The Proto-Slavic form of the word was, *měsęcь. There is a generally accepted "scientific" phonetic transcription for Proto-Slavic language, which is based on the modern Czech and Polish orthographies, including two Cyrillic letters (ъ, ь). This transcription contains no TZ, IA and double SS!!! There is no need to discover America, therefore, because it has already been discovered! I was able to recognize *měsęcь in this MESSIATZ, however, what HORS is and how should it be read I have NO IDEA!

people keep adding ill informed stuff here. It's quite bad. I've removed this particular instance, but feel free to correct other dubious passages yourself. dab (ᛏ) 10:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Hors is not a Slavic name, but probably Sarmatian or Scythian. While Mjesec is simply the name of Moon in (most) Slavic languages, and was not a name of a true diety of Proto-Slavic pantheon, the name of Hors is mentioned amongst gods of Primary Chronicle, and in Tale of Igor's Campaign. He was probably adopted in East Slavic pantheon from their Iranian speaking neighboors. --Hierophant 18:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Hors is in russian "Xopc" (Khors) [bulgarian Хърс] and indeed seems to come from iranian.

Voir aussi http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81 Messiatz is a russian deity as here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/myesyats.html "Myesyats" is on this site. I have probably written the french transcription. Myesyats is also in this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_god

[edit] About the Serpent...

Under mythology, there's a large paragraph that lists many of the different god vs. serpent stories. It's followed by this little bit:

"The myth symbolized a clash between forces of order and chaos (represented by the serpent), and the god or hero would always win.[4] It is therefore most probable that there existed some kind of dragon or serpent, possibly with multiple heads and likely linked with the god of underworld and/or waters, as serpentine aspects can be found in many chthonic, aquatic Indo-European deities..."

I might be a bit confused, but this part in bold seems to me a claim that dragons-type serpents actually existed in real life in ancient times! I could be reading this wrong, but that's what it's saying to me. Would anyone like to clarify (and hopefully clear up the meaning of the text as well)? T. S. Rice 03:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, since more-less the entire article deals with theoretichal reconstruction of hypothetical pantheon, it seems natural to me people reading it would assume the quoted paragraph refers to existance of belief into, not the existance of acctual dragon or serpent. --Hierophant 06:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I suppose that makes sense. Text might best be changed itself, though... T. S. Rice 04:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't avoid reacting on that certain paragraph either - the Axis mundi-myth is, atleast in my eyes, clearly meant to be interpreted as symbolic; and symbolic only (slaying of dragon = creating order/control. Great sea/water = subconsciousness etc.)! Maybe it would be a good idea to change the paragraph, to prevent further misunderstandings? //Charlotte

[edit] Explain some listings

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Armenian Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the Armenian interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Greek Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the Greek interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Roman Catholic Church (in, let us say, Boston, Massachussetts) UNIQUELY reflect the "Italic" interpretatin of PIE religion?

Could someone please illustrate specifically how the theology and practices of the Russian Orthodox UNIQUELY reflect the "Slavic" interpretatin of PIE religion?

Were these listings just a matter of mindless inclusion. Let's see the actual parallels here. Dogface 20:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No church is just the official hierarchy, theology and established practice it presents itself to be. Popular Christianity shows extreme variations betwen various nations and/or ethnic groups (those who are Christian, of course); the choice of saints, popular beliefs & prayers, various symbols/practices at established rituals such as baptism/marriage/funeral, etc. Many of these are Christian continuations of rituals and tradions of earlier, pre-Christian religions and mythologies, which survived Christianization and blended in nicely into the symbolism and practice of this new religious system. While I am too tired to give you an example for every question you have asked, just consider the fact that one of the many titles of the Roman Catholich pope is pontifex maximus, which was also the title for the high priests of pagan Rome. If such a syncretism of religions can exist at the very level of the highest priests, then surely much more of it exists at lower levels of popular beliefs and folk religions. Thus, Christianity of various nations in the Old World is as much of a continuation of older pagan mythologies as they temsevles were a continuation of some common PIE religion. --Hierophant 21:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
"Too tired" to give examples? That's a spectacularly MISERABLE attitude to bring to an encyclopedia. Yeah, sure, make all kinds of claims, but examples? Who needs examples in an encyclopedia? That's SILLY! Examples and sources in an ENCYCLOPEDIA? The very IDEA!? What a silly though--giving specific examples to back up claims made in an encyclopedia. No, no examples should be given. Just flat claims. That's all that's needed. Yup, that's it. No examples are EVER needed in an encyclopedia. All you do is cite a single title and then indulge in a lazy rhetorical trick, but you're "too tired" to give any real examples. I think you've pretty much proven my point. Dogface 14:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I was too tired because I wrote that late at night and I was sleepy, but somehow I still managed to write you down an anwser in a decent tone without getting all cranky about it; which, apperently, some of us are unable to do even when they are completly awake. Read the following articles (and a few books would not hurt also, I sugest Uspenskij studies in particular): Christianization, Christianized myths and imagery, Christianised rituals, Christianised sites, St Elias, St George, St Nicholas, Slavic mythology, Perun, and in fact most other articles about major Slavic gods. There. Happy? --Hierophant 17:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsure examples

Hmmm, reading through the article, some names appear to me as uncertain or incorrect:

  • Plth2wih2 Mh2ter (Dg'hōm)

Why *Plth2wih2, the only attested cognate appears to be Sanskrit Prthivi. Are there more cognates found, anywhere else, or is there another reason for *Plth2wih2 to be listed. It just seems as another claim of Sanskrit as the truest mother tongue. *Dhghom Mater seems a lot more probable, with many better examples on widespread cognates.

  • Astghik

The Astghik article claims that the name is derived from a word for star, cognate to PIE *ster, related to Greek aster, Latin stella, English star, etc. (Apparently not related to Greek Eos and Latin Aurora.)

  • Njord

Njord from *Neptonos (PG *Nerthuz) also seems a little far-fetched, partly because Njord doesn't even seem to be a true water god to begin with, but rather a fertility god.

On the other hand, when looking through links to corresponding articles, it seems that a lot of these connections are highly speculative, anyway. Apparently the article could need some heavy fixing. The theories could remain, but they'd probably need some elaboration on why they are doubted. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 00:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Fantalov's reduction"

Anybody else in favour of deleting this section altogether? A quick google search reveals this "scholar" seems to be primarily an artist of mythological scenes, and imo it's likely the only time he has presented his ideas for peer review were at the event mentioned here. It should either be removed or more sources found. --Krsont 11:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

  • On balance I am inclined to leave this section in. First, because Fantalov's theory may well be right, or nearly so. Second, he appears to be a very serious artist, working on mythological themes. Who better to perceive commonalities among different mythological themes? Third, he is Russian, and almost all of his publications are in Russian. The fact that his only scholarly writings in English are merely notes for a conference presentation does not mean that they were not backed up with good scholarship. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt for now, and see how his ideas are received. —Aetheling 21:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Find sources: Алексей Фанталов – news, books, scholar
    • I agree. We have to be careful to avoid overstating the notability of this, but there is nothing wrong with mentioning it. The material was removed anonymously. We should consider at least partial restoration. --dab (𒁳) 10:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
** Hello, I'm the one that deleted Fantalov's section. I kind of like his artwork, but there is no support for his arguments. Anyway, I am very new here, and don't understand the rules or the code very well (though I have read the tutorial and the history of this page). Nevertheless, I propose rewriting this page. I thought I would discuss it first, though. I'll be signing my posts V.A. for Very Anonymous (for reasons that I am not properly signed on). So let's see if this message is readable, V.A. 00:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

you may be right, I may have over-estimated the notability of this. It sounds sensible enough, but it apparently cannot be traced to any sort of notable publication. dab (𒁳) 12:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] changing mythology to religion in topic headings

I was looking at the category:Indo-European mythology and I think many of the titles should be changed from myth to religion, ex. Hindu religion instead of Hindu mythology, on that category page and also, further down on this page. It's no one's fault, it's just because this section developed rather haphazardly. I realize this would take a lot of work, and I don't want to start changing things, especially since I would probably code it wrong. Can anyone else help with this, and is this the right place to ask this question? PLaying with diacritics ;-) ŅĄ¶Ẽ V.A. 00:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] undo the revision

    • the link that I am removing, along with much other nonsense about St. Gabriel leads to this text:

“Transgression and denying the Lord, and turning away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving in and uttering from the heart lying words. And justice turned back, and righteousness stands far away; for truth has stumbled in the street, and uprightness cannot enter. Yes, truth is lacking and he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey. Now the Lord saw and it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice. And he saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own Arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness upheld Him. And He put on righteousness like a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on His head; and He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle. According to their deeds, so He will repay Wrath to His adversaries recompense to His enemies… And a Redeemer will come to Zion… Arise, shine; for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold darkness will cover the earth, and deep darkness the peoples; but the Lord will rise upon you and His glory will appear upon you. And the nations will come to your light and kings to the brightness of your rising…And they will call you the city of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel. Whereas you have been forsaken and hated with no one passing through, I will make you an everlasting pride, a joy from generation to generation. You will also suck the milk of nations, and will suck the breast of kings; then you will know that I the Lord am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. (Emphasis mine) (Isaiah 59:13-18,20; Isaiah 60:1-3, 14b-16)

“The Lord has bared His Holy Arm in the sight of a;l the nations, that all the ends of the earth may see the salvation of our God.” (Isaiah 52:10)

    • we do not lead to have a link to this stuff on a page discussing IE religion.

V.A. 00:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

    • Could somebody please get the bigots banned from wikipedia? They won't let us work! Alejandro. 11, February 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.156.41.218 (talk) 14:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul?

This page would benefit from an overhaul. It looks as if there's too much fuzzy etymological and superficial connections to be of any scholarly value. Could someone weed out the credible connections from the extraordinary. For several deities linked here, different etymologies are postulated than the ones mentioned in the article. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I guess the article could mention both etymologically connected gods, with thematically connected (attributes, etc), but then the article should mention the difference, and also source the schoulars subscribing to the theories. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] massive influx of original research/synthesis

I've tried to deal with some of it, but there's just so much crazy stuff in this article now. Read at your own peril! --86.144.101.168 (talk) 23:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, someone has to clean up the anon additions, or purge them. I've tagged it with {{OR}} for now. --dab (𒁳) 08:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
The the bits I took a crack at are borderline absurd. -- Fullstop (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Paraskeva

The name of Paraskeva is related to the Greco-Latin word Parasceves, which means "day of preparation". It was a term used by Hellenized Jews to refer to, inter alia, the day before the Sabbath, i.e. Friday. The notion that 1st Century Jews took the name of their Sabbath preparation from Saint Paraskeva is fanciful, to say the least. It is more than likely that the reverse is true, especially since Parasceves is mentioned in several places in the Greek and Latin New Testaments. Mention of Paraskeva is out of place in this article; her name clearly has nothing to do with "prixea". Rwflammang (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Nicolaus

The notion that Nicolaus of Myra took his name from the same root as Neptunus, Nechtan, Nethuns, Hnikar, nixies or Neckar is equally fanciful. It is obvious to anyone who knows Greek (and certainly was obvious to the parents that named him) that his name is directly related etymologically to Nike.

Does the editor of this article actually know any Indo-European languages besides English? At any rate, this reference to Nicolaus is off-topic and should be removed from the article. Rwflammang (talk) 15:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Elves and Demons

What makes the editor think that elves are related to air-spirits? What makes the editor feel that demons are earth-spirits? I could cite Tolkien's and Lewis's academic work as authority that the reverse is true: elves earthly and demons airy. Rwflammang (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

The claim that the PIE religion is the ancestor to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is highly misleading and should be either removed or highly qualified. These 3 religions all stem from a semitic root. There are undeniable PIE influences, namely in their angelology and demonology which were influenced by Iranian religion, and also, perhaps, in monastic celebacy which has paralells in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Ancient Greek Religion. But these PIE influences are relatively minor compared to the major semitic doctrines and practices. Rwflammang (talk) 20:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It was a very recent addition by an anonymous editor. Paul B (talk) 15:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Vlas

This article sure seems to contain more than its share of folk-etymolgies. This is especially ironic given that it purports to report on the work of real linguists. A case in point, the name Vlas in real life comes from the proper name Blasius, a variant of the Roman cognomen Blaesus which comes from the Latin adjective blaesus meaning "having slurred speach". There's not much of a relation to the name of the bull-god that I can see. Rwflammang (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Perun and Meno mistakes

The first mention of southern Slavic Perun as a friendly goddess is mistaken. The god and name are cognate with Perkwunos (which is the same in Finnish and Estonian, beyond the IE pale, btw). "Meno" is not a word in Lithuanian and not possible as one, the problem is the -uo ending was probably transcribed historically as a long -o. Menuo (dot over first e) is the equivalent of menulis (dot over first e), only the (masculine in both cases) ending (but not stem or root) differ. Veles (dots over both es) are spirits of the dead. Austaras (wings over first s) was a mistake. I have corrected what seemed needing correction and left information in brackets where I wasn't sure. Hypatea (talk) 16:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to include Yezidi myths somehow

The Yezidi have an IE religion, according to Lady E. S. Drower, 'The Peacock Angel', and others. Because their religion seems to contain especially archaic features of whatever common religion can be said to have existed among the IE peoples, it would be good to include some of the material in this article. This article looks a lot better than I would have expected for such a topic. Usually people try to promote their own theories on IE religion but this looks fairly sane. Hypatea (talk) 16:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am asking you please to leave the Yezidi and some other groups out of the discussion for now. The reason is the very high level of violence in some areas directed at minority groups. Hopefully things will calm down sometime in the future and we can publicly acknowledge them, but at the moment I do not think it is very safe. Please consider carefully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.223.31 (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confer with the Vulgate?

The title God the Father was current in the Aramaic speaking Judeo-Christian communities of Galilee, was translated into Greek, used in the composition of Jude, and thence translated into Latin. Maybe an editor can explain to me how this expression in the Vulgate is useful in reconstructing the name of the PIE sky god. If not, I'd like to remove it. It is at best off-topic and at worst misleading. Rwflammang (talk) 16:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)