Talk:Proto-Greek language

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[edit] A very old story

This text was constructed by the Indian scholar S.K. Sen, and it is supposed to be a proto-Sanskrit text based on old Indic *PIE roots. I (sort of) translated it hastily into Ancient Greek, taking a liberty or two (i.e. using ρηξ, a Latin-derived Byzantine neologism, because the probaby pre-Greek βασιλεύς has supplanted the IE-derived equivalent). Please feel free to contribute, especially in the items I have question-marked:

To, régho:n ?e ?est. So nputlós ?e ?est. So régho:n súxnum éwelt.
Kwo kwe re:ks eeto. Kwos apaids eeto. Kwos reeks huion gwoleto.
Πο(τέ), ρηξ ήτο. Ος άπαις(?) ήτο. Ο ρήξ υιόν εβούλετο.
Once, there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son.

So tósyo gHeutérm prksket: “Súxnus moi gnxyeto:m!”
Ος τούτου χυτήρα ηρώτα (?): "Υιός μοι γένοιτο!"
He asked his priest: “May a son be born to me!”

So gHeuté:r tom réghonm ?e wewkWet: “Ihgeswo deiwóm Wérunom”.
Ο χυτήρ τωι ρήγαι είπε: "Ίκεσο θεόν Ουρανόν"
The priest said to the king: “Pray to the god Varuna”.

So régho:n deiwóm Werunom xúpo-sesore nu deiwóm ihgeto.
Ο ρήξ θεόν Ουρανόν υφεώρα(?) νυν θέον ίκετο.
The king approached the god Varuna to pray now to the god.

“KludHí moi, pxtér Wérune!”
"Κλύθι μοι, Πάτερ Ουρανέ!"
“Hear me, father Varuna!”

Deiwós Wérunos diwósyo ?e ni-gWext.
Θεός Ουρανός κατά δίος ήκε.
The god Varuna came down from heaven.

“KWid wélsi?” “Wélmi súxnum.”
"Τι βούλεσαι?" "Βούλομαι υιόν"
“What do you want?” “I want a son.”

“Tod ?éstu,” wéwkWet louqós deiwós Wérunos.
"Τούτο έστω," είπε λευκός θεός Ουρανός.
“Let this be so,” said the bright god Varuna.

Reghnós pótnix súxnum gégone.
Ρηγός πότνια υιόν γέγονε.
The king’s lady bore a son.


IMHO this is about 50% intelligible by any Greek and almost fully intelligible to an educated Greek Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:00 (UTC)

very nice! now do it in Proto-Greek (mainly inserting the labiovelars and the spirants). The king could be the wanaks (in Sanskrit, the vanij). dab (ᛏ) 8 July 2005 15:13 (UTC)
Hey, Mr. Lazy Boy, am I to do everything around here? :-P Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:18 (UTC)

Hey, what do you know, I can read ancient Greek (of course, the translations help). Decius 8 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)

I am not at all sure about nputlos, húpo-sesore and prcscet. I may have also mixed up some Datives and Accusatives. The rest was pretty darn straightforward - including χυτήρα = (libation) pourer = priest. Chronographos 8 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)

According to my references, ancient Greek boulomai (boule) is from PIE *gwel, 'to throw, reach', while the PIE equivalent is from PIE *wel, 'to wish, will'. Different roots, but equivalent form and meaning. Decius 8 July 2005 15:45 (UTC)

I think to reach fits just fine, "What to reach?" still makes sense, despite being gramatically incorrect. -- HawkeyE 06:25, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
the point is that the words are supposed to be cognates, which in this case they are not. dab (ᛏ) 07:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
True. I'm afraid this will have to stand as license poetique. Chronographos 10:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia article on "Uranus": 'Identification of the name Uranous with Indian Varuna is widely rejected. The most probably etymology is from Proto-Greek *vorsanos, from a PIE root *vers "to moisten".' Although I don't know what you gain by comparing rex, a Latin word introduced into Greek thousands of years after its split from what would become Sanskrit, and réecs, the translation is striking and well done. As others say below, Do it in Proto-Greek! --Nick G

the really tricky bit, ignored by Sen, is to get the various particles right; there is no way there was any PIE, or Proto-Greek, text without various sentence-initial particles, and their particularity really makes for the "feel" of the language. Would there be sentence initial nu in Proto-Greek? Would there already be the ubiquitous de? nu regont e'eto. hos de npawidos e'eto? dab (ᛏ) 07:09, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the first sentence in proto-greek. Notice also that βούλεσαι is not greek but is probably close to proto-greek: *gwoolesai>*βούλεσαι>*βούλεhαι>*βούλεαι>βούληι -which is the attested form--66.183.163.115 04:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New text

I agree with you, dab, it's not well done at all. Of course I see the point in including it, if it's the only such reconstruction by an known scholar. Still I'd dare say you'd do a better job reconstructing it yourself. Chronographos 10:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

of course, but it would need to be a published reconstruction, I suppose; in any case, the point of including it is to show the evolution of our understanding of Proto-Greek. Schwyzer couldn't have done any better in 1939. dab (ᛏ) 10:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Good point. Chronographos 10:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Athenaioi we would have to reconstruct as Astanwasyoi, but even that is weird, since the Proto-Greeks would not have had any Luwian loanwords (not to mention the paradoxon of addressing Proto-Greeks who have not even set foot on the Greek peninsula as Athenians :) -- maybe we should something Homeric to project back, rather. OR, I know -- since I have just been picking on Nixer over at Talk:Proto-Indo-European_language for inserting his own (re)constructions without explanation. dab (ᛏ) 11:07, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Where did you read that Athana was a Luwian loan? I was under the impression that it was a non-PIE substrate loan. Chronographos 13:25, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
we cannot be certain, of course, but see the etymology at Athena. I would not be surprised, incidentially, if Luwian had a strong influence, at least, on late Eteocretan. dab (ᛏ) 13:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Not very convincing. Sounds even less plausible than the "N'eith" etymology in Bernal's "Black Athena". Chronographos 14:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering about that Luwian etymology myself: how strong is this Luwian etymology, what is the evidence for it, etc. From what I know, classical Athena was not associated with the sun in any notable manner (as the Luwian etymology would have it). Pre-classical, I would need to see the evidence. ---Decius 14:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
There is no evidence, it's etymology by lack of evidence: She was around since the Mycenaean times at least, she has no known equivalent in IE theology (i.e. wise warrior virgin daughter of Dyeus Piter), no apparent IE etymology, therefore she must have been a loan (by a process of elimination) Chronographos 14:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

you could help me out with the Afrocentrists over at Talk:Ancient Egypt, 'graphe :) Anyway, if it's not in Melchert, I have my doubts the astanu etymology has any basis at all; we should probably remove it. But how about astaniya "to cast spells" -> *astana "witch"? The owl gives her away, there is more of a connection to Lilitu than to Sowilo I guess... damn, OR again :)dab (ᛏ) 14:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Afrocentrists? Oh, noooooo, you poor thing .... :-P Chronographos 14:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
just don't repeat the "Decius" mistake and blunder over there mockingly; I think he is rather sensitive, and we are just beginning to get along :P dab (ᛏ) 15:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
In the case of Talk:Pelasgians, it was no blunder. From the way the etymology is phrased in Athena, I suspect the information was taken from this site [http://www.anistor.co.hol.gr/english/enback/e023, which is not a good site to take etymologies from. ---Decius 15:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

interesting page; unfortunately, he translates simple A-ta-no-dju-wa-ja "divine Athena" as "sun goddess", and afaics there is no real evidence for the "Sun" connection. I was referring to Xg's mistake of losing your favour, in his early days on WP, btw, not your own behaviour vs. assorted crackpots on Pelasgians :) dab (ᛏ) 15:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] trees

Enkyklios, with changing treyes to trees, you seem to claim that invervocalic y was already lost in Proto-Greek, while so far we have stated it was lost between Proto-Greek and Mycenaean. Is this a statement you wanted to make, and, are you sure? dab (ᛏ) 16:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not sure. As a matter of fact we only know that it was lost somewhere between Proto-Indo-European and Mycenaean. The question is if Proto-Greek is more archaic than all Greek dialects in this respect. It may be, but we simply cannot know. I prefer to reconstruct Proto-Greek as the probable common denominator for all Greek dialects. A compromise would be a parenthesis: *tre(i̯)es. Enkyklios 14:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sample

Enkyklios, I am glad for the update, but we need an explanation of the notation; in particular, what is ç? Maybe do a table of phonemes further up under "phonology"? dab (ᛏ) 09:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact ç is explained in the note beyond the text as a voiceless approximant. I know that this notation is not standard in the handbooks of IE and Greek lignuistics, but is perfect IPA. Enkyklios 14:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Archanthropus case

The following paragraph inserted by 195.35.105.38 has been deleted:

Petralona Archanthropus’ Skull
The first proof of native intelligent human presence in Greece came with the discovery of Petralona Archanthropus’ Skull, in Chalcidice in 1960. The skull has been dated to be at least 70,000 years old, by two German scientists: the anthropologist E. Breitinger and the palaeontologist O. Sickenberg. Extensive research on the issue has been done by the anthropologist Dr. Aris Poulianos of Moscow University, who claims this discovery obsoletes the Indo-European theory. 40th anniversary since the discovery of Petralona Archanthropes' Skull Interview with A. Poulianos

The palaeanthopological evidence has no relevance for the discussion of Proto-Greek and does not belong here. Whatever credentials Poulianos may have as an anthropologist, he is certainly not an expert on historical linguistics, as it is obvious from his comments in the interview. Even if we were ready to accept his hypothesis of a genetic continuity from palaeolithicum until the present time (most anthropologists aren't), it does not necessarily follow that there was a linguistic continuity as well. We don't know what language that poor Archanthropus fellow spoke. Unless Poulianos can detect a fossilised Proto-Greek paradigm somewhere in the skull, the remains cannot possibly prove that the Greek language is authochthonous rather than a later import from the northeast or the east. Enkyklios 12:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Approximants in proto-Greek

Shouldn't the reconstruction of ὅτι be ʍokwid instead of çokwid? Isn't [ç] a fricative? Someone could argue that *sy would sound more like a [ɕ]. Is there a character for describing unvoiced [j]? --Kupirijo 16:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation issue

I suppose from the names you people use to sign in, you must be greek like me right? (if not the rest is pointless). Any way, the greek section of this page is nothing comparing to the english. I do speak english fluently but i can't cope with an english text full of difficult linguistic terms. Is there a chance someone with the appropriate knowledge on the subject enrich the greek page?

[edit] Examples would be useful in the "phonology" section

Many sound-changes are listed in the phonology section. It would be really useful to see at least one example of each change, especially as it isn't clear to non-specialists (like me) exactly what each change consists of. For example, does "Aspiration of /s/ -> /h/ intervocalically" mean that VSV -> VHV or VSV -> VSHV, or what?

The discussion of sus "sow" and dasus "dense" is unclear to me. Are sus and dasus the same in PIE and PG? If so, state this. If not, give the form of each word in each language. Cheers. Grover cleveland (talk) 02:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)