Talk:Prostitution in South Korea

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 the existance of prostitution in Korea 2 temp situation 3 NPOV 4 Inaccurate 5 Barber shop poles 6 WP:NPOV violations / "Prostitution for tourists during the 1970s" 7 Unjustified prostitution protestations

[edit] the existance of prostitution in Korea

prostitution exists in Korea, it is not a product of the USFK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hardyandtiny (talk • contribs) 23:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a project to build and improve articles related to Korea. We invite you to join the project and contribute to the discussion.
	Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Please help us improve this article.
	???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.

	Sexuality Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Sex work task force. (with unknown importance)
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

[edit] temp situation

I worked in Seoul during this illegality of prostitution. For about one month there were stories in the news papers about arrests and the neon lights were off for places like anma. After one month all the lights were back on as normal. Just like the banning of eating dog meat during the Seoul Olympics (which is delicious). These days you are more likely to hear about someone attacked in a room salon or anma because the police refused to investigate the crime because room salon and anma no longer officially exist. jushin100 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.21.106 (talk) 02:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

This article seems somewhat outdated, and many statements seem fishy. The numbers in the introduction are meaningless unless identified by year. Are they for 2005? 1995? 1985? Dollarfifty 18:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

They're all cited in the sources, but the government stopped keeping official estimates a few years ago. So they should all be from about 2002. I wonder why you say it seems dated, or fishy? The only thing that seems dated to me is that it doesn't discuss the impact of the Special Law, which has actually seen the industry become more lucrative.--ThreeAnswers 14:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It just didn't sound plausible that 20% of all young women are in the sex industry. I understand it's one of those things very difficult to study accurately, and estimates vary widely. The studies should be identified by year in the introduction, and some sense of the credibility of the studies should accompany the estimates in the text. I'm not saying the numbers are wrong, but that the current version doesn't lay the foundations of credibility. Just my comment for other editors who may be more interested in improving this article.Dollarfifty 22:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

–I edited the opening paragraph. Statements violate npov and denote infererences that are not supported by sources. Hijklmnop224 01:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)hijklmnop224

The numbers from the institute of criminology cannot be wholly trusted. There is massive corruption among lawmakers and politicians and they are known to bolster numbers when there is something they want passed. For example dog meat and prostitution. Neither of which are nearly as large. Korean society is largely conservative and a number like that produces fear and surprise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Subvertmsm (talk • contribs) 08:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

"Out of a total population of about 48 million, there are 1.2 million women engaged in the sex industry, according to one civic organization."

I have to question what this 'civic organization is. This sentence is from the source 4, which does not say anything about this organization. It gives me an impression that the writer of the source 4 said it in order to exaggerate her point. Note that, while the writer of source 4 cites most other sources in correct MLA format, he or she does not even give a hint of what this organization is. And if he or she indeed got the data from some organization, this is a blatant plagiarism. I believe the above sentence lowers the quality standard of this article and wikipedia, especially when we have the data by the South Korean government. Therefore, I'll delete the sentence from the article.

Also,

"Korea has a long history of kisaeng as its cultural part, somewhat of a mixture of prostitute and geisha who provide entertaining performance."

Kisaengs were not prostitutes. They were female performers who were usually hired for high-class parties, including those held by the government. For those who can read Korean, here is a link of a Korean <encyclopedia:http://culturedic.daum.net/dictionary_content.asp?Dictionary_Id=10006667&mode=title&query=%B1%E2%BB%FD>. This sentence contains a very commonly misunderstood concept (just like people confuse geisha with Japanese prostitute), and therefore I'll delete this sentence also.

__Hychu

[edit] Inaccurate

1. The government estimates 500,000 women are engaged in the industry.

This inaccurate news quickly denied by s.korea goverment. and s.korea goverment request to newspaper company for correct errors and official apology.[1][2](sorce are korean language)

2. Prostitution in South Korea is a large illegal industry. The Ministry of Gender and Family Equality estimated that it comprises over 4% of South Korea's GDP, with revenue exceeding $22 billion; this would make the industry the country's fifth-largest if accurate[3] [4]

first is blog source. it was uncertain & self made blog source. blog is anti-korea Japanese made POV site. i can't trust that blog. no citation.(skip)

Regardless if you feel that that blog can't be trusted, the blog source for the passage you have an issue with is taken from The Seoul Times. So, your issue lies with a Korea-based news source. Since your dispute is about the blog, I have since changed the source to show that the same citation is coming from the Korean media source, instead.----Gbozz (talk) 01:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

secound source, can't find "GDP 4%", "$22", "fifth-largest".

I've just reviewed the 2nd source and I see that it indeed states figures such as 4% of GDP and $21 billion a year. Full passage from source is here.

Today, sex work accounts for 4 percent of the country's gross domestic product, according to government reports. Prostitution brings $21 billion a year -- more than electricity and gas combined. There are an estimated 330,000 sex workers, 80,000 brothels and 69 red-light districts in a country the size of Indiana.

.

3. The government stopped keeping official figures in 2004. South Korea is also a source, destination, and transit country for human trafficking; a significant number of women from Russia, Uzbekistan and Southeast Asia (particularly the Philippines) are brought to the country to work as prostitutes or "juicy girls", many of whom are believed to be virtual slaves[5]

human trafficking? virtual slave? can't find this fact from given source. maybe HOAX?

4. An increasing number of women are being taken to the United States, Canada, and Australia to work as prostitutes, and a number of them claim to have been tricked or forced.

This is uncertain silly POV sentence. unreliable. no source.

5. In 2004, the government passed the Act on the Prevention of the Sex Trade and Protection of its Victims, a sweeping new law criminalizing human trafficking and stiffening penalties for brothel owners, establishing a number of shelters for victims and ending their automatic deportation. Some Korean sex workers, however, protested what they saw as a threat to their livelihoods. The law's passage was followed by a crackdown which reports indicate was unsuccessful at making prostitution less lucrative or popular.

need citation.

6. In 2000, 222 girls under 18 were arrested for engaging in wonjo gyoje, or compensated dating with older men, and in 1999 the Commission on Youth Protection reported that over half of girls arrested for prostitution were under 16.

This is unsuitable in article. some personal crime.

7. In December 2006, The Ministry for Gender Equality, in an attempt to address the issue of high demand for prostitutes among, offered cash to companies whose male employees pledged not to pay for sex after office parties. The people responsible for this policy claimed that they want to put an end to a culture in which men get drunk at parties and go on to buy sex[6]

I checked citation. 'high demand'? it's POV word. In citaion, There is no word 'high deman'.

Juice8093 20:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barber shop poles

There is no defined pattern in regards to how many barbershop poles are associated with massage parlors. The 'Two poles' myth is an old, unsubstantiated myth that the foreign community in Korea tends to perpetuate. However, many legit barbershops have 2 poles, as well as some massage parlors have 1 or more. I've cleared up the wording to avoid confusion. --Gbozz (talk) 04:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)--211.111.122.177 (talk) 03:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NPOV violations / "Prostitution for tourists during the 1970s"

(Some of my comments below were copied from this discussion at AN/I.--Endroit (talk))

There's a major WP:NPOV issue hanging in this edit. The part I detest is that the word "kisaeng" is being associated with prostitution at all.

P.234 of the cited source Yakuza: Japan's Criminal Underworld (ISBN 0520215613) says:

• "In every major Korean city, large, government-registered "kisaeng houses" sprang up. One pair of houses sat in a wealthy area of Seoul, on either side of the Japanese ambassador's official residence. Each could accommodate eight hundred men at one time. The owner was reportedly a top politician with past service in the KCIA. Along with the official kisaeng houses arose hundreds of brothels and tens of thousands of prostitutes." (bolding added for emphasis by Endroit)

So that's where the wording "official kisaeng houses" probably came from. Despite other sources such as this using the word "kisaeng" that way, I believe this wording to be in violation of WP:NPOV, and so I propose this wording be changed to "brothels approved by government officials". I suggest ALWAYS using the word "brothel" instead of "kisaeng house", and "prostitute" instead of "kisaeng". The Wikipedia articles should strive to use such NPOV words.

Also I believe it may be safer to say that prostitution was "tacitly approved" rather than "officially approved" by the South Korean government. Surely, there's no way that the South Korean government overtly endorses prostitution. That's ridiculous.

Regarding government involvement, p.118 of Women's Lives and Public Policy: The International Experience (ISBN 0275945235) says:

• "This time the South Korean state encouraged and condoned prostitution because it saw women as a valuable resource with which to earn badly needed foreign currency. The kisaeng, the professional female entertainer, is officially registered with the Korea International Tourism Association (KITA) through the party house to which she belongs. .... KITA also sponsors an orientation program for these women, in which "renowned personages and college professors" give lectures and say such things as, "You girls must take pride in your devotion to your country, for your carnal conversation with foreign tourists does not prostitute either yourself or the nation, but expresses your heroic patriotism"."

It's not clear what status this KITA actually had in the Korean government, if any. If KITA is the former name of the Korea Tourism Organization, then they were a "government-invested corporation responsible for the Korean Tourism industry" during the Park regime, perhaps not "officially" part of the government.

Major WP:NPOV concerns exist, if this stuff needs to go on the article (ie: that the government "encouraged and condoned prostitution"). And there's still the question of whether the topic of "prostitution for tourists during the 1970s" is notable enough to be mentioned in the article. Please discuss, and make sure NPOV wording is used.--Endroit (talk) 17:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unjustified prostitution protestations

I cant help thinking that all of these denials about South Koreas prostitution are from Koreaans living abroad or those from the usual weird "christian" or other religious groups that exist in Korean society. I think these people deliberately avoid their eyes when walking in any thoroughfare in a town or city. If you look in for example in any district of, for example, Seoul at night you can see many neon signs either explicet or not advertising "room salon" or "business club". It is possible to sleep with girls from these places.

The Gangnam-Yeoksam area is famous for the large "anma" massage places.

Buchangdong is internationally famous for its naked room salon and is a sex tourist resort even famous in Japan.

I worked in Seoul for 4 years for one of the countrys largest companies. We all looked forward to university holidays because the poorer students would earn some money in the sex trade.

I was in Seoul when the government "banned" prostitution. There were public protests from mens rights groups and a rally by female sex workers in Seoul. If you, the reader, don't think that this is indicative of the extent of the sex industry in Korea then there is no hope for you.

KOREAN FILMS - This sex industry appears in probably about 40% of all Korean films. Even films such as "Sex is zero", a popular modern comedy refers to male university students selling themselves to older women in a room salon - every Koren guy reading this will know that this is an old joke about how to make some quick money.

What I'd finally like to say is.... LEGALISE IT AGAIN! in room salon these days you often have the manager/ess coming to say the police have been called so can we please pretend we are all boyfriend and girlfriend. A Korean friend of mine was beaten to the ground outside a brothel in an arguement with the guy near the door - the police refused to investigate because of course there are no brothels (legally). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.217.165 (talk) 01:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting point of view by an individual allegedly to have been in South Korea for years. However, you've got the wrong place to speak of your "demand" for the legalization of the prostitution in South Korea because here is neither a forum nor reportage. I checked your contribution due to your assaultive opinion on religion like usual weird "christian" or other religious groups that exist in Korean society.. Well I get to know that you're very interested in societies of South Korea, but please refrain from producing inflammatory and inappropriate comment like that. If you have some agenda and can't write articles with reliable sources, please find some place to suit your needs, because this article belongs to an "encyclopedia". Thanks.--Appletrees (talk) 12:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

What a strange comment from Appletrees... 1. I have been in South Korea for many years. Of course I can prove that if pushed, passport stamps etc... also, is it really difficult to believe? that someone has lived in Korea for some years? Many do! 2. "However, you've got the wrong place to speak of your "demand" for the legalization of the prostitution in South Korea" I have no demand for the legalization of prostitution in Korea and I have never said otherwise. 3. "I checked your contribution due to your assaultive opinion on religion like usual weird "christian" or other religious groups that exist in Korean society." Well done Sherlock! Yes, I have interests, and you found some of them. Actually my main interest is to try and stop mis-information. That is why I write about cult figures in weird semi-christian religions and other cults - they deceive the gulable. That is why, for example, I published the details of the USA educational authority details regarding the "education" of Mr. Yonggi Cho on the Talk page of Yoido Full Gospel Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yoido_Full_Gospel_Church) to show that he had no right to call himself "Dr.". Even this information with proof was difficult for many people to beleive. He claims to be Doctor of this PhD of that but none of his qualification are accredited and therefore they are worthless. 4. Let me give you one example with Yonggi Cho's beliefs. He claims to be a Christian but he believes it is his duty to be rich. Now Jesus said that you cannot be rich and go to heaven (eg. camel and eye of the needle etc.. and other sayings). Now Cho has decided to completly ignore Jesus. Jesus was explicit about this. Instead Cho has decided to claim that Paul was talking about material wealth (most people think that Paul talks about spiritual wealth because all works attributed to Paul talk about the spiritual). Cho and some other pentecostalists choose to ignore Jesus's specific teachings on poverty as an excuse for making money. Paul's teachings are obviously secondary to Jesus's to a Christian even if Paul did mean material wealth (which most Christians - Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, doubt) Pauls ideas should be disregarded if they contradict with Jesus - to a Christian. This is just common sense isnt it? By-the-way I'm not a Christian of any kind. I'm Buddist. 5. "please refrain from producing inflammatory and inappropriate comment like that." Haha, like what? You dont mention anything. I will produce thought provoking and challeging ideas on the "Talk" boards - which is where they belong because I am fed up with unbalanced views. THIS IS A DISCUSSION BOARD ABOUT THE MAIN ARTICLE! 6. I need reliable sources for the main article only! Hopefully these discussions will, for example, allow others to provide the sources when I cannot find them. It will allow others to build on the article from the information that has built up over time on this Talk page. You should not be so narrow minded - THIS IS A DISCUSSION! THIS IS NOT THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.109.116 (talk) 00:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your complimentary comment about my ability. However, the overall tone of yours still sounds very rude. If you wish to keep a discussion with somebody in Wikipedia, be civil as possible as you can. Until then, I don't waste my time talking with you. Your viewpoint toward Christianity is not an irrelevant subject, so why don't you try to save this page? Bye--Appletrees (talk) 00:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)