Talk:Prophecy of Seventy Weeks

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[edit] Another alternative?

One view that seems to missing from this article is actually one of the more popular (among non-Fundamentalist scholars, that is). It holds that the 'decree' should actually be dated from Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt (see Daniel 9:2, Jeremiah 29:10, Jeremiah 30:17-18, Jeremiah 31:38). Further, the Hebrew word 'dabar' is generally thought to be mistranslated in the KJV - in fact, it means 'word' as in 'the word of the Lord' (Dan 9:2). This then puts the start of the 70 'weeks' at the second siege, i.e. 587 BC. The first division of seven 'weeks' would then end at 536 BC - almost exactly the same time that Cyrus conquered Babylon and ended the Exile. (Also note that the KJV inserts a definite article before the word 'Messiah'. In fact, the text has no definite article - it should read 'an Anointed One', as in the RSV and NJB. The next division of 62 weeks would take us (approximately) to the time of Antiochus IV. The final 'week' would then refer to the seven years of persecution under Antiochus, from 171 BC (when the last Zadokite High Priest was murdered) to 164 BC (the death of Antiochus). It is also interesting to note that both Maccabees and Josephus point out that Antiochus violated his treaty of peace with the Jews in 167-168 BC - i.e. in the middle of the seventieth week (I Maccabees 1:29, Josephus Antiquities Book XX 11:3, Dan 9:27).

--Curtvdh 19:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The article certainly needs some expansion. For instance, the skeptical position is barely alluded to: "Skeptical scholars like J.A. Montgomery claim that the weeks are really the same as the years previously decreed. This allows for the fulfillment of the prophecy to reside in the person of Antiochus Epiphanes". OK, but how exactly? I see no mention of the events of the Maccabean Rebellion, the murder of the Anointed One (high priest), the Abomination of Desolation (the statue of Zeus in the temple) and so on. --Robert Stevens 14:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll get started on a revision - I'm familiar with the Maccabean Interpretation as well as the Dispensationalist. I need to do a little research on the Preterist interpretation, as well as the various Jewish interpretations. Fortunately, I have over 30 commentaries on Daniel covering all the major interpretations in my personal library, so I don't have to go far ;-) --Curtvdh 05:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I remember Montgomery saying, which added weight to the Christian messiah theory was that the time periods didn't match up. But I think if you take 'return and restore' Jerusalem in Jeremiah's sense 25:5, the first seven weeks are an approximation of the time mentioned in verse 2 (including other prophets), 62 weeks from the 4th year of Jehoikim takes us to Onias III (I think). Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 14:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope Curtvdh gets back to us. At the present moment of time I lean towards Nethaniel West's interpretation in which he believes the first week took more than 49 years to be fulfilled as the years when the Jews were in apostasy and not building the wall are not to be counted. If your unfamiliar with West's theory I will dig out his dates. I am reluctant to abandon the belief that the last week has yet to be fulfilled.--Another berean (talk) 10:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I have preferred the Christian interpretation has been that the last verses speak of extermination - which happened in 70AD. But could Strong's number 3617 be 3615 - a verb. The consonants and pointings are the same, and it could be 'until finished' - no mention of extermination. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Mauro - article required

We could do with a Wikipedia article about Philip Mauro (1859-1952), a member of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States and one of the foremost patent lawyers of his day. The biography by Gordon P. Gardiner could be a useful source to start this. See [1]. DFH 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of Chronology

This article, Book of Ezra, and Book of Nehemiah, all contain a lengthy section about trying to date the events shared in common. The section was added to this article by User:Wstruse (whose only edits have been to these three articles and his user page) and then added as a whole to the other two articles. Given the encyclopedic importance of the issue it should be in the Wiki, but it doesn't need to be in three places. Worse, I think this may well include a copy edit violation, given the non-sequitur nature of having Tables 6.2, 6.3, and 6.4, but no others. I am uncertain as to whether this should be broken out into a separate article or left as an article in this article, but it defnitely needs a rewrite, verification, and a check against possible copyvios. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It contains redundancies with the preceding section and also nonsense about Darius (who has enough years but is clearly not called Artaxerxes, wbich BTW is not a title but the actual name of the King nick-named Longimanus and later adopted as regnal names by Artaxerxes II, III (Ochus) and IV (Arses). Str1977 (smile back) 13:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite & Verification

Caerwine,

I agree, this chronology does not need to be in three places. I am not sure the best way to go about rectifying the situation. I provided the contribution with the hope that someone would be able to present it in a more desirable manner. I realize my writing skills leave much to be desired. As to the copy edit violations, the words as well as the tables are mine. The tables were created by me in Xcel format. I could not provide them as originally created hence the table without the format.

________

For those who may be interested in rewriting this information or verifying it the following may also be useful.


The Apocrypha is considered an extra-Biblical text that was not included in the Cannon of Scriptures that makes up the common Bible today. The Apocrypha contains the books of 1st Esdras & 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras). The book of 1st Esdras is almost a word for word version of the Canonical books of Ezra, Nehemiah and part of Chronicles. 2nd Esdras (4th) contains much more information regarding Ezra and his prophetic visions relating to the end of the age and the Messianic era. None of 2nd Esdras (Ezra) is contained in the Canonical Scriptures. 1st Esdras and 2nd Esdras were in wide circulation up until at least the council of Trent. It is from Esdras that Josephus repeatedly quotes or references. Josephus died in 79 AD so it is likely that the books of Esdras were in circulation some decades before his death. It is likely that Esdras was based on the original Hebrew versions of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles that were in circulation at that time.

In 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras), Ezra states that he was in Babylon 30 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. 2nd Esdras also states that Ezra was one of the last remaining prophets of his time.


4 Esdras 3:1-2 In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: 2 For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon.

4 Esdras 10:44-48 44 This woman, whom thou sawest is Sion: and whereas she said unto thee, even she whom thou seest as a city builded, 45 Whereas, I say, she said unto thee, that she hath been thirty years barren: those are the thirty years wherein there was no offering made in her. 46 But after thirty years Solomon builded the city and offered offerings: and then bare the barren a son. 47 And whereas she told thee that she nourished him with labour: that was the dwelling in Jerusalem. 48 But whereas she said unto thee, That my son coming into his marriage chamber happened to have a fail, and died: this was the destruction that came to Jerusalem.


This book of 2nd (4th) Esdras confirms that Ezra was alive during the Babylonian captivity. Not only was he alive but 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e. 556 BC) he was a respected prophet of the people in Babylon. This confirms the Canonical book of Ezra where it states that Seraiah the high priest was Ezra’s father. As a respected prophet 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem Ezra is definitely a 1st generation member of the Judean captives. Ezra’s father died in around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem so at a minimum Ezra the prophet was 30 years old when these events are described in 2nd Esdras.

In 1909 Louis Ginzberg chronologically collated the traditions of the Jewish people found in the Talmud, Midrash and other traditional oral sources. These traditions or “Legends of the Jews” all centered on the oral traditions regarding the Scriptural narrative. Here are a few of excerpts from the “The Legends of the Jews”:


In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Ezra:

…………….The complete resettlement of Palestine took place under the direction of Ezra, or, as the Scriptures sometimes call him, Malachi. He had not been present at the earlier attempts to restore the sanctuary, because he could not leave his old teacher Baruch, who was too advanced in years to venture upon the difficult journey to the Holy Land. …………………………….


In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Daniel:


…………………….. The king consented on condition that Daniel designate a successor worthy of him. His choice fell upon Zerubbabel. Loaded with rich presents and amid public demonstrations designed to honor him, Daniel retired from public life. He settled in the city of Shushan, where he abode until his end. Though he was no prophet, God vouchsafed to him a knowledge of the "end of time" not granted his friends, the prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, but even he, in the fulness of his years, lost all memory of the revelation with which he had been favored. …………..


Both of the above passages place Ezra as a contemporary with Daniel, Zerubbabel, Haggai and Zechariah. The 1st specifically state that Ezra was alive during the first attempts to restore the 2nd temple. The 2nd passage states that Ezra (also called Malachi) was a friend of Daniel. Granted the Apocrypha and Ginsberg’s “Legends of the Jews” are not considered “inspired” texts. At a minimum they are examples of historical documents that in fact do confirm the Scriptural record regarding Ezra as a 1st generation Babylonian exile who lived contemporaneously with Haggai, Zechariah, Zerubbabel and Daniel.

Regards, Wstruse Wstruse 21:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I find the Prophecy of Daniel's 70th Week wholly prejudiced in its emphasis and co-opted by the Seventh-Day Adventist brand of eschatology. Daniel's Seventieth Week is not the exclusive purview of the Adventists--most definitely, Dispensationalists or Progressive Dispensationalists are wholly engaged in the debate over the futurity of Daniel's Seventieth Week and have been since 1840. The futurity of Daniel's 70th Week is also a major emphasis in the early Church, especially in the third century (i.e., its total futurity in the writings of Hippolytus (his tractates on Daniel and Antichrist acclaim the entire 70th Week of Daniel is yet future). In particular, I find it disconcerting to attribute the work of Antichrist to Jesus Christ in that the antecedent in Daniel 9:27 (i.e., "he" shall confirm a covenant, etc.) was and is NOT Jesus Christ during His ministry or at His crucifixion or His resurrection, but that this "he" is none other than the previous individual mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "the prince who is to come" - the same one whose people destroyed the city of Jerusalem, and some say, yet future destruction of Jerusalem.

In all intellectual fairness, this article is wholly deficient and I believe the editors of Wikipedia must come to grips with what is actually a very one-sided presentation of this most significant piece of prophetic writ. MOST of American Evangelicalism holds to a Premillenarian view of Bible prophecy. And, in the main (witness "The Late Great Planet Earth" and the entire "Left Behind Series") affirms that the commencement of the Daniel's 70th Week is the "Treaty with Hell and Death" - the infamous Treaty between Antichrist and Israel to guarantee Israel's security in the "end of days."

There is a complete disconnect of Daniel 9:27 on the part of the Adventists from the the remaining verses of Daniel 7 through 12 (Chapters 7-12) which speaks directly and in context to what is going on in Daniel 9 - i.e., Daniel 9 is not a "stand alone" - there are a multitude of direct and adumbrative texts in Daniel which preclude that Daniel 9:27 be interpreted in isolation! Again, the Seventh-Day Adventists do not own the Seventieth Week of Daniel. Regards, DWKrieger kriegerdwm 00:36, 11 December 2007 (PST)

[edit] Antichrist and Daniel's 70th Week

I find the Prophecy of Daniel's 70th Week wholly prejudiced in its emphasis and co-opted by the Seventh-Day Adventist brand of eschatology. Daniel's Seventieth Week is not the exclusive purview of the Adventists--most definitely, Dispensationalists or Progressive Dispensationalists are wholly engaged in the debate over the futurity of Daniel's Seventieth Week and have been since 1840. The futurity of Daniel's 70th Week is also a major emphasis in the early Church, especially in the third century (i.e., its total futurity in the writings of Hippolytus (his tractates on Daniel and Antichrist acclaim the entire 70th Week of Daniel is yet future). In particular, I find it disconcerting to attribute the work of Antichrist to Jesus Christ in that the antecedent in Daniel 9:27 (i.e., "he" shall confirm a covenant, etc.) was and is NOT Jesus Christ during His ministry or at His crucifixion or His resurrection, but that this "he" is none other than the previous individual mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "the prince who is to come" - the same one whose people destroyed the city of Jerusalem, and some say, yet future destruction of Jerusalem.

In all intellectual fairness, this article is wholly deficient and I believe the editors of Wikipedia must come to grips with what is actually a very one-sided presentation of this most significant piece of prophetic writ. MOST of American Evangelicalism holds to a Premillenarian view of Bible prophecy. And, in the main (witness "The Late Great Planet Earth" and the entire "Left Behind Series") affirms that the commencement of the Daniel's 70th Week is the "Treaty with Hell and Death" - the infamous Treaty between Antichrist and Israel to guarantee Israel's security in the "end of days."

There is a complete disconnect of Daniel 9:27 on the part of the Adventists from the the remaining verses of Daniel 7 through 12 (Chapters 7-12) which speaks directly and in context to what is going on in Daniel 9 - i.e., Daniel 9 is not a "stand alone" - there are a multitude of direct and adumbrative texts in Daniel which preclude that Daniel 9:27 be interpreted in isolation! Again, the Seventh-Day Adventists do not own the Seventieth Week of Daniel. Regards, DWKrieger kriegerdwm 00:36, 11 December 2007 (PST)

Verse 27 is not isolated from the rest, because verses 25-27 form a tight literary chiasm. It is the literary structure that defines who the antecedent is to which "he". In this case the literary structure is:
Jerusalem constructed
Messiah to come
Jerusalem constructed
Messiah comes to save others not himself
Jerusalem destroyed
Messiah cancels the written code, with its regulations, (i.e. the Temple ceremonial code/law) nailing it to the cross
Jerusalem destroyed
The "Left Behind Series" is a novel based on very sloppy interpretation of Bible Prophecy. Hal Lindsey was proven wrong in the 1980s when all his predictions were supposed to have come true. Christian Skeptic (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dating of the prophecy or authenticating it

Could the fact that the numbers in the prophecy are written out in full, rather than using numerals, allow for, although not prove, an earlier dating of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 15:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This site says Hebrews generally used numbers spelt out (documents?) or, in inscriptions, frequently written according to well known 'arbitrary' symbols (while speculating that one instance of using alphabetic numerals at that age may have been found dating from 312BCE): http://books.google.com/books?id=2nHLqnmLNckC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=phoenician+numbers&source=web&ots=NV6LF8MUHE&sig=_2ls9xA6dmRM3FS_-FNcUy1gkMI The 'spelt out' numbers must be in the bible, but it does say this was also the practice of the Phoenicians. Although there are exceptions (there are inscriptions spelt out (such as the Moabite stone and the Siloam inscription - both of which at some time were claimed by scholars to be written after the claimed date(The Story of a Forgery and the Mesa Inscription, A. S. Yahuda and 'Was the Siloam Tunnel Built by Hezekiah', Rogerson and Davies), and manuscripts with numerals (the hypothetical proto-masoretic script)), this is a rough guide and there is no correlation between style and chronology.

Archaic numbers: From 'Insight on the Scriptures' under Number, Numerals, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, it is said that numbers written on archaic Saloam Tunnel are fully spelled out. The Moabite stone is one example, dating from 930BCE. Could the writer have avoided numerals because of the official nature of the stone? In 'The Phoenician Stele Inscription from Cilicia' by R. Marcus and I.J.Gelb, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol 8, No 2 (Apr 1949) pp116-120, the Phoenician Stele (740BCE), an official artifact, included a vertical stroke for the number 1, for 1 sheep in column 3, line 2, "as normally in hieroglyphic Hittite". If this was a Phoenician inscription, the use of numerals is in accordance with Phoenician and Hebrew custom.


The Moabite stone includes the number thirty and forty as the reigns of kings. In an article in Vetus Testamentum (Vol 52, Fasc 4 (Oct 2002) pp483-492), J.A.Emerton says another author regarded the Moabite stone as a work of fiction (partly because of its' nicely rounded numbers). Emerton refuted this, but the question remains - why weren't numerals used on the Moabite stone? Possibly because of the simple rounded nature of both numerals. (Regarding the Siloam tunnel, In "Was the Siloam Tunnel Built by Hezekiah", John Rogerson and Philip R. Davies say: "...it is frequently not possible to prove on paleographic evidence alone whether a text in paleo-Hebrew dates from, say, the eighth-seventh centuries or is Hasmonean or later". But both these artifacts are well respected).

A paleo-Hebrew TELL QUDEIRAT Ostracon (another inscription) dates from 600BCE and uses hieratic numerals up to one hundred thousand: http://www.mathorigins.com/T.htm, obviously preferring the numerals to written form.

Samaritan Ostraca (800BCE) written in ink on shards of pottery (not broken from a whole vase) and having the same Phonecian script as the Moabite Stone and Siloam tunnel inscription: "The years mentioned are the ninth and tenth, which are always spelled in full, and two others, apparently eleventh and thirteenth, which are always expressed as figures" (Harvard Theological Review, "Hebrew Ostraca from Samaria"). Gandz ('Hebrew Numerals') says several other symbols appear as the number 15 and perhaps the number 17. The number 15 is identical to the hieratic numerals. This is the reverse of the numeral 1 and spelled out number thirty. The figures used in the Ostraca are years of reign, or dates. The figures in the above paragraph are part of remarks. However there are no numerals in the Old Testament at all, it seems the text has been edited and it would be unsafe to draw any chronological conclusions as it is at the moment.

In discussing the hypothetical proto-masoretic numbering system, some articles cite stone masons' marks on the wall of Jerusalem. This site, in the footnote, says the markings were verticle and horizontal strokes too: http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/gar57.htm. But these are 'inscriptions as well. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


Late numbers: JSTOR: Solomon Gandz, Proceedings of the American Academy of Jewish Research, Vol 4 (1932 - 1933) p 53 -112. p85 says: "However, T Reinbach already advocated the theory that these coins belong rather to a time of 66-70 AD. It is true, Reinbach in his learnerd article on Numismatics, in the Jewish Encyclopaedia, retracted his former opinion and favoured again the date of 139 BC, GA Cooke still holds... that the coins belong to the first revolt against the Romans." The coins were dated for example 'first year' using the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Reinbach's reasoning is available on line at the Jewish Encyclopaedia under ' Date of coins' in the section referred to - numismatics. The section above the dating of coins contains the command to mint them. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=368&letter=N&search=numismatics#1153

Here numerals, which are usually reserved for inscriptions are used in manuscripts. This encyclopaedia says the Elephantine papryi in Aramaic used verticle strokes for units and horozontal strokes for tens. http://books.google.com/books?id=bb6BV_AD5e8C&pg=RA2-PA556&lpg=RA2-PA556&dq=lachish+letters+numbers&source=web&ots=vCFBQMIf9o&sig=vYMsVzsA5Al80U79JARjUGJbBgo Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC) It seems clear this was the phoenician numbering system as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet#The_numerals —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk • contribs) 18:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


If it was that archaic inscriptions had words spelt out in full and coins were abbreviated by cipher numbers, a spelt out number could perhaps be archaic.

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

If it is true that nmbers graduated from spelt-out form to numerals wone would expect the New Testament ot be mainly cipher numbers. This link says that this is the case, even though Nestle writes them out: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/Mathematics.html 121.91.33.130 (talk) 02:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It would not be a very substantial argument in any case, as it's generally agreed that Daniel purports to be a product of the 6th century BC. If I was writing a fake Shakespeare play, I'd use the language and style of that period, not modern English. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

If the choice of spelled out numbers is due to a Hebrew preference for this in formal text, as Robert Stevens said the writer would naturally prefer this if he was writing as if from God.

Infact there must have been cipher numbers in a copy of the Masoretic text around the time of the writing of the septuagint as the Emphatic Diaglott says http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r1980.htm: ""A difficulty occurs here which has very much puzzled Bible chronologists. The date given here is at variance with the statement found in 1 Kings 6:1. There have been many solutions offered, but only one seems entirely satisfactory; i.e., that the text in 1 Kings 6:1has been corrupted by substituting the Hebrew character daleth (4) for hay (5), which is very similar in form. This would make 580 (instead of 480) from the exodus to the building of the temple, and exactly agree with Paul's chronology."

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Although a more recent book on chronology states different reasons, not resorting to copying errors: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZkBasQYRy4sC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=%221+kings+6+1%22+chronology&source=web&ots=VtNiE1tIgS&sig=CbTfl2eS3NYzcESfLQW3YlhvEQU

Am I right in thinking that the Dead Sea Scrolls only have a few fragments of Daniel and none of the key verses relating to the 70 weeks were discovered? This is a pity as I hold the opinion that radiocarbon dating methods can be very accurate--Another berean (talk) 10:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I checked this link http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266 and you are right, Daniel 9 was not found, thanks Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Although I checked some other sources and three or four fragments of one word length were found from the prayer of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "Daniel Manuscripts from Qumran Part1: A preliminary edition of 4QDana"BASOR 268 Eugene Ulrich, p17:" consists of only five tiny fragments all from the prayer in chapter 9, but none with more than one complete word"

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 10:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Daniel 9's conservative dating

Three or four fragments of one word length were found from the prayer of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "Daniel Manuscripts from Qumran Part1: A preliminary edition of 4QDana"BASOR 268 Eugene Ulrich, p17:" consists of only five tiny fragments all from the prayer in chapter 9, but none with more than one complete word"

The author of this writing gives a future dated (AD) prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9's 70 weeks from the Essenes and mentions that the Pharasees also had a similar prophetic interpretation. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0048-1009%28199810%2940%3A4%3C407%3AC%26CJ%26C%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 05:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But if the mechanism of prophecy is prophetic dramas (Gal 4:24), Antiochus Epiphanes could have inspired the 70 week prophecy. The word 'understanding' seen in this context could (I wonder) be 'inspired dark sentences' (Dan 8:23).

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 21:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Such a style of writing would be in keeping with the Bible's style of hyperbole. A tidal wave saves the leaving Israwlites: Moses divided the water and the Israelites didn't even get their feet wet; God creates heaven and earth: but the earth puts forth animals; Moses goes up into an active volcano:the earthquakes are called trumpets; a plague kills 195000 Assyrians who were to attack Judah: the king is saved from Assyrian crucifixion miraculously and Psalm 22 has salience.to Christians...

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 09:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)