Talk:Propaganda Due

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Contents

[edit] WP:Verifiability#Dubious sources

Wikipedia Verifiability: Dubious sources reads:

  • Claims that are attested only by a source or sources which rely on guilt by association are not considered verifiable. Verifiability requires a source and direct evidence which specifically identifies a person or organization as having engaged in a negative behavior. This is especially true of claims which infer information from membership in an organization and from activities of others associated with that organization. An example, Smith and Jones are Knights of the Garter. Smith kills his wife. It is inappropriate when writing an article about Jones to include information like this, "Smith, also a member of the Knights of the Garter, killed his own wife" under the heading "Crimes of Jones." Most uses of guilt by association are more subtle than this example, but share the characteristic of using inference from known information to attempt to establish a fact about which there is no direct evidence.

This article reads:

  • Also interviewed, Ibrahim Razin claimed that three days before Swedish prime minister's Olof Palme's assassination, in 1986, Philip Guarino, member of the Republican circle around George H.W. Bush, received a telegram signed by Licio Gelli and sent by one of his men, Ortolani, from "one of the southernmost regions of Brazil". The telegram said: "Tell our friend that the Swedish palm will be felled."

The source for the guilt by association smear tactic of the Republican Party and George H.W. Bush is here. It is authored by the Rt. Hon. Chip Berlet, and reads:

  • "Guarino is linked in published accounts.... This has been reverted. nobs 21:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I Think it should be mentioned that P2 has nothing what so ever to do with the Freemasons. P2 is only using the masonic front as a cover.
Also Berlusconi is not P2 (to my knowledge) he is a member of Opus Dei which is a bit different.--Sneaking Viper 01:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns about plagiarism and copyright violations.

While checking on the verasity of some of the material in this article, I have discovered that large chunks of it are identical to the P2 article found at Reference.com. [1]. Please note that the content of Reference.com is copywrited. Reference.com makes this clear:

  • 3. Rights in Site Content and the Site
  • 3.1 All content provided by Lexico on the Site is protected by copyright, trademark, and other applicable intellectual property and proprietary rights laws and is owned, controlled, and/or licensed by Lexico. The Site is protected by copyright, patent, trademark, and other applicable intellectual property and proprietary rights laws and is owned, controlled, and/or licensed by Lexico. REFERENCE.COM™, DOCTOR DICTIONARY® and Lexico® are trademarks and, where indicated, registered trademarks of Lexico or its subsidiaries. SPELLING.COM™ is a trademark of Alan Berkovitz. All other trademarks appearing on the Site are the property of their respective owners.
  • 3.2 You will not modify, publish, transmit, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit, any of the content, in whole or in part, found on the Site. You will download copyrighted content solely for your personal use, but will make no other use of the content without the express written permission of Lexico and the copyright owner. You will not make any changes to any content that you are permitted to download under this Agreement, and in particular you will not delete or alter any proprietary rights or attribution notices in any content. You agree that you do not acquire any ownership rights in any downloaded content.

Thus, this article must be substantially re-written. This is an interesting topic, and I would hate to see it deleted by the admins. --Blueboar 18:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No copyright problems

Please ignore my comments above, folks. It has been pointed out to me that the similarities between the two articles are due to reference.com's using this Article as its source (and cited this article) and not the other way around. In other words, they copied from us. There is no copyright violation at all. I apologize for the confusion, and for intimating that the people who wrote this article cut and pasted instead of doing their research. Keep up the good work. --Blueboar 23:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Founding

What's the source of P2 beginning in 1877? *Mark Lombardi: Global Networks, which is my main source for P2 (Lombardi did a number of drawings of the various Vatican Bank scandals), says that it was "consecrated in 1895". --maru (talk) contribs 06:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dirty War?

Article emphasises the dirty war in the opening but makes no further mentions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.130.133.221 (talk) 22:38, April 10, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Masonic?

The Grand Orient of Italy is not a recognized Grand Lodge of Freemasonry. As such, P2 is what is known in Masonry as a profane lodge, also known as a clandestine lodge, though this latter term does not denote secrecy, rather it refers to the surreptitious nature of pretender organizations to Freemasonry.

A Grand Lodge must have a valid charter origniating ultimately from one of the four founding Grand Lodges of Freemasonry of the British Isles (e.g. the United Grand Lodge of England, etc.). Propaganda Due, as a Lodge under the clandestine and unrecognized Grand Orient of Italy, is not affiliated with Freemasonry.

The true and official Masonic Grand Lodge of Italy is the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy, mutually recognized by all other regular Grand Lodges. P2 is and was therefore not affiliated with 'real' Masonry in any way. The members of P2 did copy several of the forms, rituals, and procedures of true Masonry, thereby leading to confusion, but any association with Ancient Free and Accepted Masonry is wholly false.

P2 was not part of the regional/national freemasonic organization, and various events and details reference the SMOM and the Vatican (at odds with Freemasonry).

Indeed, the Vatican strictly forbids Catholics from joining any recognized body of Freemasonry. Therefore, one who intends to or is initiated a member of the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is forbidden by the Catholic Church from joining, but one who seeks membership in the Grand Orient of Italy is not. Hence why the latter organization in general and P2 in particular included members who were Archbishops and other ranking Vatican officials. Vatican officials would have been and are barred by the Catholic Church from joining 'real' Freemasonry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.130.231 (talk) 07:01, May 5, 2006 (UTC)

Please explain these subtilities details which escape layman's attention in the "Foundation" subsection, with as much clarity as you can. Tazmaniacs 05:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request quote

I have removed the {{request quote}} tag since interpretation of the source is correct:

Per il sindacato in particolare, deve essere prioritario l'obiettivo della scissione dell'unità sindacale per poi consentire la riunificazione con i sindacati autonomi di quelle componenti confederali sensibili all'attuazione del Piano.

Mushroom (Talk) 15:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

operated in Italy from 1877-1981, headed by Licio Gelli, Gelli headed it for 104 years? Corvus cornix 22:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

I've added a POV tag. Ibrahim Razin is in fact Oswald LeWinter, a known hoaxer. Intangible2.0 02:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Why? Because you say so? What are your sources? You can't run around wikipedia adding pov tags as with the Gelli article because you say so, and you like to undermine the other people who've worked on this article. I for once have little knowledge of the affairs involved here, but we wikipedias find it particularly impolite for people to tag whatever they don't like pov just because they say so, as proper little dictators. Without even bothering to argument their case, let alone ask for a concensus or inform other members. As with the article on Gelli, I was reading some wikipedia article's on Italian foreign policy and ended up here, only to find a pov tag on both which at first cast doubts on my reading these articles, only to find out that someone had decided to pov them out of a whim. I find this unacceptable, as I am sure other users will, and I am removing the pov tag. 84.254.51.229 07:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF. That Razin is in fact LeWinter is provided for in a 1990 affidavit by Richard Brenneke. Intangible2.0 22:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've the removed the stuff on Brenneke. See the various articles on Brenneke by Frank Snepp in The Village Voice. Intangible2.0 02:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overcategorization

This article is overcategorized in "History of Argentina" and "Politics of Argentina", but it clearly does not belong in there (at least, not in the general categories, perhaps at a subcategory).

It is said that the category should be there because some politicians were members. That may be true, but it's still a very weak reason to categorize. The organization has never been radicated in Argentina, nor it has had any direct or notorious influence in any event or chain or events here. Can it be demostrated that their belonging to the secret society had any real and tangible influence in their administrations? At least, the article does not show it. It can not be compared with, for example, the active intervention of the foreigner Spruille Braden in the politics of Argentina.

Categorization criteria is not transitive. That the National Reorganization Process is an important topic of History of Argentina, that Massera is an important topic of the National Reorganization Process and that this secret society is an important topic of Massera, does not mean that this secret society may be an important topic of History of Argentina. Even the relation of it with Massera could be challenged as a categorizational criteria, by WP:OC ("Non-defining or trivial characteristic" and "Opinion about a question or issue")

General categories like those ones should have only the most important and key elements. "History of Argentina" should be limited to historical periods, founding fathers, defining events or concepts such as independence or constitutions, etc. Filling it with hundreds of cuasi-related articles is discouraged at the 9º guideline of Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines Benito Sifaratti (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is an inappropriate categorization. If P2 played a roll in the history and politics of Argentina, a more direct connection needs to be made in the article (properly cited to reliable sources of course). Otherwise take out the categorization. Blueboar (talk) 17:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)