Talk:Prohibition in the United States

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[edit] The John D. Rockefeller Jr. Quote

The quote by John D. Rockefeller Jr. needs to provide source information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.146.101.70 (talk) 15:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sorting out the distinctions between consumption and possession

Is this line...

"At no time was possession of or drinking of liquor, wine or beer illegal."

... a mistake? I thought the last word should be legal rather than illegal.

No the point is it was never illegal to drink liquor, only to posses it. Since you can't do one without the other it was unecessary to ban drinking itself. By the way, is the last line of the article "Izzy is the best" vandalism? I assume it isn't mean tot be there. 88.111.219.69 22:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Richard

It was not illegal to posses or drink liquor--only to sell or make it. Rjensen 10:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought the Eighteenth Amendment only banned the "manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors", not the possession or consumption thereof. That would mean the first paragraph is quite wrong- and has been wrong for a month. I wish more people would do basic fact-checking before they 'correct' someone else's 'mistake'. Paladinwannabe2 21:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I imagine, however, that the individual states could still ban the possession and consumption of alchoholic beverages. I would be great if we could get into some detail about how all this worked, and who inforced what. We also need to be careful not to confuse 'alchohol' with 'intoxicating liquors' - achohol can be use in medicine and manufacturing processes quite apart from drinking (and you can't drink pure alchohol anyway) - Matthew238 03:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prohibition in US

I think it would be a good idea to link this to Prohibition. In order to gain an understanding of the movement, one needs to understand the historical/sociological context which gave way to Prohibition. In the same way, it is important to include in this context the vices of Prostitution, gambling, and drug use. One can only understand Prohibition by seeing it as a response toward certain acts at a given time such as domestic violence, abandonment, financial hardships (such as when a husband splurges the income on prostitutes, and alcohol, as well as crime and unemployment. So, now that the Prohibition page is wwv, how about wwv to the Temperance movement page also? It too is heavily overloaded with US content. -The Gomm 21:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temperance

The temperence movement in the United states needs to be mentioned in the article. You can reduce content if you want to but don't deleted the section from that article.
It should not be added because I don't know what it is!
Good point. Perhaps we need to move the USA heavy content from this page to the US prohibition page, leaving a brief summary on this page, comparable to the content from other countries. The Gomm 22:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to do that. We need a bigger prohibition page anyway. I am currently doing a project on it and so if anyone has any more information on it please do add to it.
I also think that we should shorten up this page but I agree on the adding more to the US side of the prohibition.
When will this final decision be made? ...or do you fellas not know?
Omfg switch it already...
snootchie bootchies
Prohibition and the temperance movement are two different things. If anything, prohibition is a part of the temperance movement.
I don't know about that. Well if it is it sure wasn't taught that way, before I saw this I had never heard of the Temperance Movement. So I feel that it should be moved here because you ask people "Hey you know what the prohibition is right?" Then they say "Yeah." Then you ask "Hey do you know what the Temperance Movement is?" then they reply "Ummm no wtf is that Oo?"
↑ Vouch.
Prohibition is part of the Temperance Movement, but I think they should both have their own separate pages. Info regarding Temperance should be included though. what does "Oo" mean?
the probation was cool...people couldn't drink beer so they smoked crack and had premarital sex
ok guy above me can't even spell it right gtf out of here and Oo means like O_o like big eye little eye meaning what? or huh? or things of that sort

[edit] Legal or Illegal and more Temperance

Is this line...

"At no time was possession of or drinking of liquor, wine or beer illegal."

... a mistake? I thought the last word should be legal rather than illegal.

ihfsdjbngshgrlwhut4w3nr4.kjnbvlhliawr,.mkebnfkjarth
↑ ok on that it is true it was never illagal to possess or drink alcohol, it was only illegal to distribute and manufacture alcohol good question though
  • Oppose proposed merger of U.S. Temperance Movement discussion into this category. Keep this category for the distinct period of nationwide Prohibition. Don't muddy it by adding information about temperance movements before and after Prohibition. Temperance movements have existed at many different times and places. The U.S. temperance movement that led to national prohibition existed for several decades before prohibition was enacted. --orlady 20:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok well at first I liked the idea of a proposed merge, but now I do realize that were two seperate things. Also I believe we could use a bit more on this section, maybe a bit on pre-prohibition and what led up to it. Although it was temperance movements that did, I am going to vote No on this topic. Nelson' 16:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

they were two different things. the temperance movement was a leading force, along with the prohibition party at enacting Prohibition. However, each topic should have its own section for research purposes and ease of finding. just do something.

[edit] Utah

"Mississippi, which had made alcohol illegal in 1907, was the last state to repeal prohibition, in 1966."

I was under the impression that Utah was a dry state. Am I misinformed? Monkeyspearfish 15:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the details of Utah's laws, but the state is NOT dry. See http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/ . Also, I know that private clubs can sell liquor by the drink (and it is not difficult to join those clubs). --orlady 17:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing the introduction

The introduction needs some rewriting. First of all, it's unclear. Start with the dates, why those dates in the first sentence? They don't go with anything except "the era when alcohol was outlawed". But the next sentence makes it clear it also goes with other years (unspecified) when it was also outlawed, so the second sentence essentially contradicts the first sentence. The sentence "At any time possession of liquor, wine or beer was illegal", if a sentence at all, unravels both the first two sentences. So it was illegal "anytime"? What does that mean? And the "Drinking alcohol was never technically illegal, but one who was drinking was liable for prosecution on the grounds that they possessed the alcohol they were drinking." I think I know what is meant, but what is meant isn't what is said. There are lots of circumstances in which drinking alcohol is "technically illegal", during the 1920s as well as now. There were drunkenness laws, for example, where persons were arrested who were not in possession of the alcohol. I think what is meant is that the Volstead act and the 18th amendment did not specify alcohol consumption itself as a crime. It would be good to specify it like that in the article. I tried to copy edit the introduction, including adding good wikilinks, and it has twice been reverted, without a reason. I think it would be good to get some comments about this. I think the introduction needs an edit, if not by me than by somebody. Professor marginalia 23:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring the article

Would other editors be open to changing the outline of the article a little and repositioning some of the sections? As it is both the chronology and the issues don't seem to be order. For example, the 18th amendment in 1919 appears in the middle of the "origins" section, and after its appearance, the narrative relays events in reverse order, describing events in 1917, then 1916, 1905, then the narrative goes forward again, 1912, 1916 and up to the 18th amendment in 1919. I suggest that the "origins" section be subdivided into the social/religious foundations of the prohibition movement and the political manuevering behind the 18th amendment. Those influences culminated in the 18th amendment and nationwide prohibition, so it is disorienting to see the final culmination as the pivot point of the "Origins" section. Another example is the subsection of "Origins" called "Prohibition". It isn't clear why it would go there, and also the term "prohibition" is not descriptive enough. The entire article is supposed to be about the Prohibition in the US, so it's not clear what's supposed to be described in that subsection. And the very first sentence of that subsection "Prohibition" describes the repeal of the prohibition amendment. In other words, the subject "Prohibition" itself is skipped over completely in the top two paragraphs of that section as readers are told immediately how it was removed through legislation. I think a good outline would help us a lot with these issues. One last point: I think that the really good data in the article is difficult to follow in part due to the "conflation" of different ideas into the one word, "prohibition". Throughout the article the term "prohibition" sometimes means the era under the 18th amendment, sometimes it means the 18th amendment itself, other times the amendment along with the Volstead act, and sometimes it refers to a broad assortment of disparate movements to limit alcohol, be they political, economic or social. I think improvements to the introduction will help this, and also if throughout the article the term "prohibition" is scrupulously avoided when describing any particular aspect of it. For example, "prohibition" was not repealed in 1930 since some states continued to prohibit alcohol (even today there are dry counties in parts of the US). The 18th amendment was repealed in 1930, not "prohibition"--especially not "prohibition" as the term is used in this article since the article has itself included independent state laws, etc., as included by that term.Professor marginalia 16:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Correction -- the Eighteenth Amendment was repealed in 1933, not 1930 (by the Twenty-first Amendment). Also, the term "Prohibition" (capital 'P') should be used to refer to National Prohibition -- that was the common usage. Note that there was state, county, and municipal prohibition (lower-case 'p') in many places in the U.S., both before and after National Prohibition.

And the term "Repeal" (capital 'R') should be used; that was the common usage (not to mention the common dream).

Also, it should be made clear that the Volstead Act is distinct from the Eighteenth Amendment. The Volstead Act was a Federal statute that implemented enforcement; the Eighteenth Amendment gave the jurisdiction to do so. Many people think the two are synonymous.

Note that the Volstead Act was never repealed -- it didn't have to be, since the Twenty-first Amendment simply nullified it.

-- Bruce Jerrick, July 07 2007.

[edit] Prohibition date

The prohibition era is stated from 1920-1969. I thought it to be incorrect. Corrected it to 1920-1933 after verifying from other sources. Correct me if I'm wrong. Saurabh Sardeshpande 11:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. So I learn that Mississippi was the last state to repeal prohibition. But that was in 1966. Then why is the date given till 1969? I think only the nationwide ban should be included in the dates in the first line of the article. Saurabh Sardeshpande 11:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source

??? Where is this source and who wrote it? Rjensen 03:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The source of this article was "National Prohibition of Alcohol in the U.S.," from which the text in bold was taken.David Justin 02:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Prohibition In the United States (1920-1933) was the era during which the United States government outlawed the manufacture, transportation, and sale of alcoholic beverages. It also includes the prohibition of alcohol by state action at different times, and the social-political movement to secure prohibition. Selling, manufacturing, or transporting (including importing and exporting) alcohol were prohibited by the Eighteenth Amendment, however drinking and possession of alcohol were never illegalized.

Origins

In colonial America, informal social controls in the home and community helped maintain the expectation that the abuse of alcohol was unacceptable. There was a clear consensus that while alcohol was a gift from God its abuse was from the Devil. "Drunkenness was condemned and punished, but only as an abuse of a God-given gift. Drink itself was not looked upon as culpable, any more than food deserved blame for the sin of gluttony. Excess was a personal indiscretion." When informal controls failed, there were always legal ones. Alcohol abuse was treated with rapid and sometimes severe punishment.

While infractions did occur, the general sobriety of the colonists suggests the effectiveness of their system of informal and formal controls in a population that averaged about three and a half gallons of absolute alcohol per year per person. That rate was dramatically higher than the present rate of consumption.

As the colonies grew from a rural society into a more urban one, drinking patterns began to change. As the American Revolution approached, economic change and urbanization were accompanied by increasing poverty, unemployment, and crime. These emerging social problems were often blamed on drunkenness. Following the Revolutionary War, the new nation experienced cataclysmic social, political, and economic changes that affected every segment of the new society. Social control over alcohol abuse declined, anti-drunkenness ordinances were relaxed and alcohol problems increased dramatically.

It was in this environment that people began seeking an explanation and a solution for drinking problems. One suggestion had come from one of the foremost physicians of the period, Dr. Benjamin Rush. In 1784, Dr. Rush argued that the excessive use of alcohol was injurious to physical and psychological health (he believed in moderation rather than prohibition). Apparently influenced by Rush's widely discussed belief, about 200 farmers in a Connecticut community formed a temperance association in 1789. Similar associations were formed in Virginia in 1800 and New York State in 1808. Within the next decade, other temperance organizations were formed in eight states, some being statewide organizations.

19th Century

The prohibition or "dry" movement began in the 1840s, spearheaded by pietistic religious denominations, especially the Methodists.

Between 1830 and 1840, most temperance organizations began to argue that the only way to prevent drunkenness was to eliminate the consumption of alcohol. The Temperance Society became the Abstinence Society. The Independent Order of Good Templars, the Sons of Temperance, the Templars of Honor and Temperance, the Anti-Saloon League, the National Prohibition Party and other groups were formed and grew rapidly. With the passage of time, "The temperance societies became more and more extreme in the measures they championed."

While it began by advocating the temperate or moderate use of alcohol, the movement now insisted that no one should be permitted to drink any alcohol in any quantity. It did so with religious fervor and increasing stridency.

The prohibition of alcohol by law became a major issue in every political campaign from the national and state level down to those for school board members. In promoting what many prohibitionists saw as their religious duty, they perfected the techniques of pressure politics. Women in the movement even used their children to march, sing, and otherwise exert pressure at polling places. Dressed in white and clutching tiny American flags, the children would await their instruction to appeal to "wets" as they approached the voting booth.

Some successes were registered in the 1850s, including Maine's total ban on the manufacture and sale of liquor, adopted in 1851. However, the movement soon lost strength. It revived in the 1880s, with the Woman's Christian Temperance Union and the Prohibition Party.

The Civil War (1861-1865) had interrupted the temperance movement while Americans were preoccupied with that struggle. Then, after the war, the Women's Christian Temperance Union was founded. The organization did not promote moderation or temperance but rather prohibition. One of its methods to achieve that goal was education. It was believed that if it could "get to the children" it could create a dry sentiment leading to prohibition.

In 1881, Kansas became the first state to outlaw alcoholic beverages in its Constitution, with Carry Nation gaining noteriety for enforcing the provision. Many other states, especially in the South, also enacted prohibition, along with many individual counties. Hostility to saloons and their political influence was characteristic of the Progressive Era. Supported by the anti-German mood of World War I, the Anti-Saloon League, working with both major parties, pushed the Constitutional amendment through Congress and the states, taking effect in 1920.

Prohibition was an important force in state and local politics from the 1840s through the 1930s. The political forces involved were ethnoreligious in character, as demonstrated by numerous historical studies.[1] Prohibition was demanded by the "dries"—primarily pietistic Protestant denominations, especially the Methodists, Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Disciples, Congregationalists, Quakers, and Scandinavian Lutherans. They identified saloons as politically corrupt, and drinking as a personal sin. They were opposed by the "wets"—primarily liturgical Protestants (Episcopalians, German Lutherans) and Roman Catholics, who denounced the idea that the government should define morality.[2]

Nationwide prohibition

Main article: Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Nationwide prohibition was accomplished by means of the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (ratified January 16, 1920) and the Volstead Act (passed October 28, 1919). Prohibition began on January 16, 1920, when the Eighteenth Amendment went into effect. Federal Prohibition agents (police) were given the task of enforcing the law. Principal impetus for the accomplishment of Prohibition were members of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, and the Prohibition Party. It was truly a cooperative effort with "progressives" making up a substantial portion of both major political parties. The main force were pietistic Protestants, who comprised majorities in the Republican party in the North, and the Democratic party in the South. Catholics and Germans were the main opponents; however, Germans were discredited by World War I and their protests were ignored.

The 65th Congress met in 1917 and the Democratic dries outnumbered the wets by 140 to 64 while Republicans dries outnumbered the wets 138 to 62. The 1916 election saw both Democratic incumbent Woodrow Wilson and Republican candidate Charles Evans Hughes ignore the Prohibition issue, as was the case with both party's political platforms. Both Democrats and Republicans had strong wet and dry factions and the election was expected to be close, with neither candidate wanting to alienate any part of their political base.

Prohibition also referred to that part of the Temperance movement which wanted to make alcohol illegal. These groups brought about much change even prior to national prohibition. By 1905, three American states had already outlawed alcohol; by 1912, this was up to nine states; and, by 1916, legal prohibition was already in effect in 26 of the 48 states.

The Progressives claimed to be humanitarians whose stated goal was to better the lives of the common people, one of their most significant acts being passage of the Eighteenth Amendment, which ushered in the era of Prohibition.

End of prohibition The Twenty-first Amendment, which repealed nationwide prohibition, explicitly gives states the right to restrict or ban the purchase or sale of alcohol; this has led to a patchwork of laws, in which alcohol may be legally sold in some but not all towns or counties within a particular state. After the repeal of the national constitutional amendment, some states continued to enforce prohibition laws. Mississippi, which had made alcohol illegal in 1907, was the last state to repeal prohibition, in 1966. There are numerous "dry" counties or towns where no liquor is sold; even though liquor can be brought in for private consumption. It was never illegal to drink liquor in the United States.

On March 23, 1933, President Franklin Roosevelt signed into law an amendment to the Volstead Act known as the Cullen-Harrison bill allowing the manufacture and sale of "3.2 beer" (3.2 percent alcohol by weight) and light wines.[3] The Eighteenth Amendment was repealed later in 1933 with ratification of the Twenty-first Amendment on December 5.

Many social problems have been attributed to the Prohibition era. A profitable, often violent, black market for alcohol flourished. Racketeering happened when powerful gangs corrupted law enforcement agencies. Stronger liquor surged in popularity because its potency made it more profitable to smuggle. The cost of enforcing prohibition was high, and the lack of tax revenues on alcohol (some $500 million annually nationwide) affected government coffers. When repeal of prohibition occurred in 1933, following passage of the Twenty-first Amendment, organized crime lost nearly all of its black market alcohol profits in most states (states still had the right to enforce their own laws concerning alcohol consumption), because of competition with low-priced alcohol sales at legal liquor stores. This, possibly leading organized crime into further expansions into more illicit and socially harmful criminal activities such as narcotics.

Prohibition had a notable effect on the brewing industry in the United States. When Prohibition ended, only half the breweries that had previously existed reopened. Wine historians also note that Prohibition destroyed what was a fledgling wine industry in the United States. Productive wine quality grape vines were replaced by lower quality vines growing thicker skinned grapes that could be more easily transported. Much of the institutional knowledge was also lost as wine makers either emigrated to other wine producing countries or left the business altogether.[4]

  • While the manufacture, sale, and transport of alcohol was illegal in the U.S., it was not illegal in surrounding countries. Distilleries and breweries in Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean flourished as their products were either consumed by visiting Americans or illegally imported to the U.S.
  • The Ku Klux Klan strongly supported Prohibition and its strict enforcement [1].
  • In the 1890s, Carrie Nation of the Woman's Christian Temperance Union fought for prohibition by walking into saloons, scolding customers, and using her hatchet to destroy bottles of liquor. Other activists enforced the cause by entering saloons, singing, praying, and urging saloon keepers to stop selling alcohol [2].
  • Despite the efforts of Heber J. Grant and the LDS Church, a Utah convention helped ratify the 21st Amendment [5] While Utah can be considered the deciding 36th state to ratify the 21st Amendment and make it law, the day Utah passed the Amendment both Pennsylvania and Ohio passed it as well. All 38 states that decided to hold conventions passed the Amendment, while only 36 states were needed (three fourths of the 48 that existed). So, even if Utah hadn't passed it, it would have become law.

In the media

In Literature

  • In the book "The Great Gatsby", Gatsby makes money by illegally selling alcohol.
  • In the Autobiography of Malcolm X, he tells of his stint working for a moonshiner on Long Island.
  • In Sinclair Lewis's Babbitt, the title character prides himself as a progressive who supports Prohibition, but does not follow it and drinks moderately.

In Film The film The Untouchables chronicled the prohibition period, and the efforts of law enforcement during that period.

[edit] exemptions?

I think I remember learning that certain religious groups, particularly Jews and Catholics, were exempted when wine was used for religious reasons due to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. I further heard that Synagogue attendance skyrocketed during the years of prohibition, possibly as the only legal source of alcohol during Prohibition and launching the Manischewitz company to prominence among non-Jews. Is this just an urban legend or something that I pulled out of thin air or perhaps is this based in fact? Valley2city 05:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Or perhaps it was the Free Exercise Clause. Regardless, prohibiting alcohol to religions in which alcohol is a vital ritual is recognized as unconstitutional (perhaps similar to the ayahuasca controversy going on now...) Valley2city 05:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarized passages

I have removed many sections that are likely plagiarism leaving the article is even more gappy and disjointed. I'm willing to work on this myself but welcome help. Much of the rest of the article left probably should be checked as well for plagiarism. Professor marginalia 22:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  • "While it began by advocating the temperate or moderate use of alcohol, the movement evolved into insisting that no one should be permitted to drink any alcohol in any quantity. It did so with religious fervor and increasing stridency." Appears in same text, page 36. [5]
  • "The prohibition of alcohol by law became a major issue in every political campaign from the national and state level down to those for school board members. In promoting what many prohibitionists saw as their religious duty, they perfected the techniques of pressure politics. Women in the movement even used their children to march, sing, and otherwise exert pressure at polling places. Dressed in white and clutching tiny American flags, the children would await their instruction to appeal to "wets" as they approached the voting booth." "National Prohibition of Alcohol in the U.S.: From Temperance to Total Abstinence" by David J. Hanson, Ph.D. [6] Each sentence appears somewhere on this page. Since Hanson cites his sources, and this article did not, and there is a copyright on the Hanson piece, wiki version more likely the one lifted.
  • "The prohibition or "dry" movement began in the 1840s, spearheaded by pietistic religious denominations, especially the Methodists." is presumably ok--my check of old edits wasn't thorough enough - with all the vandalism in the article, spot checking edits doesn't work well. Professor marginalia 16:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough, well done on extremely good work. Excise away. Ben W Bell talk 23:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organised Crime

"The idea of organized crime as a business came from Prohibition and the money gangsters saw they could make from it."

Is this true? It seems like quite a bold statement to make without some sort of citation. Organised crime has been around for hundreds of years in some form or another - the Yakuza in Japan at least goes back a few centuries - surely it's always been seen as a business?

No, absolute nonsense. I remember that going on and thought it had been removed. Thanks for the reminder. Ben W Bell talk 21:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More about state-by-state adoption?

I'm not sure exactly how many states adopted prohibition before it "went national", but it was quite a few. Greg Lange, Saloons close on the eve of Prohibition in Washington state on December 31, 1915, HistoryLink, November 6, 2003 says that when Washington State went dry at the beginning of 1916, 18 other states had already done so. - Jmabel | Talk 04:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Black Duck

Strange there is no mention of it in the article. It should be added.

Comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.73.179.13 (talk) 23:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)