Talk:Prohibition

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[edit] Older talk

I don't know enough to write it, but somebody should add a section to this article that talks about how doctors could write their patients prescriptions ("scrips") for alcohol, sometimes called "drug store rye". For a personal account, check out:

http://www.virtualnewarknj.com/memories/downneck/keeganshalit.htm

--68.80.78.97 16:55, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since 1920s Prohibition is one of my pet subjects, I'll do that some time if I remember. I've also got bookmarked a (seemingly non-copyrighted) hi-res scan of the Medicinal Alcohol form used in this procedure. It was fully legal(!) and prescriptions were written and filled without question, would certainly never happen today! Master Thief Garrett 06:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

but how come drinks are also sold now, why did drink stop solding.

This entry gives the illusion that both the US and Canada had the same law (the Volstead Act) enforcing prohibition during the same period (1919-1933) - whereas this is only true for the United States. Canadian prohibition was a provincial law that was passed by the various provinces during the first twenty years of the 1900s (1st was PEI-1900, Last was Quebec-1919); the provinces then repealed their prohibition laws mostly during the twenties (1st was Quebec-1920, the shortest amount of time with prohibition enforced; Last was PEI-1948).

If I get around to it on my vacation, I may update the main Prohibition entry properly to reflect this.

Also some mention needs to be added of the huge business of smuggling alcohol from Canada to the US during Prohibition. Rmhermen 21:09, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I added a mention of how in certain situations stills could explode in this article. It happened to my great-uncle once, where the equipment he was using to make beer exploded (but I think it was after prohibition, he was homebrewing.) Fortunately he wasn't hurt in the explosion.

Probably many of us have people in our family histories who had turned to making their own. My great-grandpa had made his own beverages during this time.

Where my uncle's family lives in Louisiana, the town where they live is dry. It doesn't mean too much other than that there are no bars or stores selling alcoholic beverages where they live. They just have to go a couple miles to get to a store that can sell beer, and there's no real enforcement of the actual dry rules. The only thing the police care about is underage and drunk driving. Kind of makes me wonder why the town even still has the dry rule on the books, unless it's just the principle of the thing.

JesseG 01:30, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Not only are some towns dry across the country (my parents live in a dry town in upstate NY), but in many states, especially in the south, entire counties are dry. I know in some parts of Arkansas and Alabama you have to drive a long ways to get a drink, because multiple adjacent counties are dry. --ntk 20 Jul 2004

[edit] Dry Towns

I live in a "dry" town in Louisiana. They sell beer, but no other alcoholic beverages. Can someone explain that one for me. I always assumed that dry ment none.

It's a grey area. Some places pressed for full banning of anything even close to alcoholic, while others for banning of only strong liquor (wine, spirits, whiskey, etc.). The official rules were a bit clearer than that, but I forget what they said at the moment... Master Thief Garrett 06:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kennedy Family

Joe Kennedy's father made the Kennedy family fortune bringing alcohol into the United States during the years of prohibition there. Perhaps this should be in this article. --McDogm 13:58, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Really? That's a sordid little detail... well, it makes sense, how *else* do you get rich when you're not an old established family? heheheh... but maybe save that up for a "noteworthy bootleggers" section. There's also conflicting stories of brewers (and some unrelated people too) that each "created" the term "the real McCoy", so those two brewers would similarly be worthy of mention. But I'd have to read up on it a bit more... Master Thief GarrettTalk 15:59, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
the story about the Kennedy family during prohibition is not true, according to the biographers. There were no illegal activities involved. (Kennedy bought rights to import Scotch before prohibition ended but did not bring in any until it was 100% legal to do so.) Rjensen 03:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Any such addition would of course have to be covered by a citation of a reliable source--Arktos talk 12:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mafia lobby

Is idea that prohibition laws were caused by Mafia lobby considered not neutral point of view?

Unless there is a source for the information, it'd be considered original research. The conventional view is that the Mafia became a powerful force in the U.S. as a result of Prohibition. I've never heard of anyone saying that they helped pass it. But if you have a source that says so, then I'm sure we can add a note about it. Thanks, -Willmcw 17:12, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for prohibition

especially in the US, there doesn't seem to be any reason for the bringing in of prohibition in this article. Does anyone know anything about it?

I agree there should be something more here about it. The best Wikipedia place to look for answers before then though is Temperance movement. matturn 13:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ku Klux Klan

Someone did an interesting edit to the Ku Klux Klan article today regarding its temperance activities. Although I reverted the edit because there were a lot of problems with it, I assume there is at least some truth to the claim that the Klan was heavily involved in temperance and prohibition.--Bcrowell 03:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

The "kieltolaki" link in the introduction links to the Finnish-language edition of Wikipedia. Sort of silly.—preceding unsigned comment by 195.148.0.59 (talk • contribs) 07:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC+11 hours)

[edit] Prank

Someone changed the word "prohibition" to "prohibishon" in this article.—preceding unsigned comment by 67.98.18.66 (talk • contribs) 01:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC+11 hours)

[edit] Globalise tag

The globalise tag was added by User:AzaToth on 8 December with the comment "The US specifc should not have a such prominent placing." I disagree. The most famous and discussed case of Prohibition is the US 20th century example, not least because it was the view of a minority imposing against cultural norms of the rest of society. The article covers a wide range of global examples. If more discussion is required, for example about Scandinavian countries, they should be added but the globalisation tag is inappropriate given the coverage of Australia, Canada and Muslim majority countries. I do not have the knowledge to add the Scandinavian experience, if any; I understand the sale of alcohol is restricted, I don't know if it is prohibited. I will allow time for discussion before removing the tag--A Y Arktos 21:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Scandanavia, with the exception of Denmark, has had a long temperance tradition. Prohibition existed in Iceland from 1919 to 1932 and in Finland during the same period. Norway, for example, still has an active and apparently influential prohibition party. Scandanavian countries today, with the exception of Denmark, are characterized by neo-prohibitionism. Russia also imposed prohibition briefly, (1916-1917). Nevertheless, I agree that the globalize tag is unnecessary.David Justin 03:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: Incidentally, it's not entirely clear that a minority imposed its will on the American public to bring about Prohibition. True, Prohibitionists were guilty of widespread deception, including leaders like Wayne Wheeler, William E. Johnson, Mary Hunt, and many others. On the other hand, many states had established prohibition at the state level long before the country did so nation-wide. Of course, we know from documentary evidence that some politicians were fooled into believing that many more people supported prohibition than really did. (Public opinion polls were unknown.) And many people, including politicians, probably believed that prohibition was good for other people but not themselves. This is a fascinating question about which people will argue for decades to come. [1] David Justin 04:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Prohibition in Russia - confliciting sources for dates

We have several different sources for Russian dates of Prohibition in WW1.

A source for the 1916-1917 date is: Ewing, John A. and Rouse, Beatrice A. Drinks, Drinkers and Drinking. In Ewing, John A. and Rouse, Beatrice A. (Eds.) Drinking Alcohol in American Society - Issues and Current Research. Chicago, IL: Nelson-Hall, 1976, pp. 5-30.

There are a number of sources, however, for 1914 - 1924.

A (cached) reference for Russian prohibition from a site calling itself The Moscow News. Within it is an article on 'Perestroika 1985 - 1991', by Sergei Roy sub-titled 'COLLOQUIAL CHRONICLE' with a section: 1.09. The Vodka Mess (1)

Campaigns against drinking were not as old as drinking itself, but old enough - as old as they were hopeless. The Russian Orthodox Church did most of the campaigning. ....

The first state-initiated attempt at prohibition in Russia was made in 1914, at the outbreak of the Great War. The blessings that came from the move were dubious: The people simply switched from kazyonnaya ("treasury") vodka, that is, vodka sold under state monopoly, to homemade samogon, lit. "self-distilled," or to drinking in what Americans would later dub speakeasies. Another unpleasant consequence of the sukhoy zakon "dry law" was the spread of drug addiction, especially cocaine sniffing, so that some authors with a flair for flamboyant historical explanations have insisted even that the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 was carried out entirely by cocaine-sniffing Baltic Fleet seamen. Actually, there may be something in it.

Anyway, sukhoy zakon held in Russia until Stalin decided that he had to have money to industrialize Russia if he wanted state-of-the-art weapons and equipment for his armed forces - his only defense against a hostile capitalist environment, in view of the failure of the world revolution to materialize. So he abolished the "dry law" and proceeded to build up what later came to be known as pyany byudzhet "drunken budget," extracting capital from state monopoly on alcohol.

From a review in the International Association of Labour History Institutions news service of a 1999 book by C. S. Walton, Ivan Petrov: Russia Through a Shot Glass.

Alcohol's role in 1917 and 1991 go deeper than the relative sobriety of the victorious leaders. Nicholas II's precipitous decision in July 1914 to extend prohibition beyond mobilization -- and thereby deprive his government of a quarter of its annual revenues -- was the first spur to the galloping inflation that would eventually help bring down his regime. And the spread of samogon (moonshine) production in the Russian countryside during World War I gave peasants the means to hold onto their grain surpluses and sever the cities' food lifeline.

The review does not really deal with this period but the reviewer mentions it in the introduction and apparently has written an article on the subject.

At Alcohol and Drugs History Society there is mention of, but no link to, an article by David Christian, "Prohibition in Russia, 1914-1925," Australian Slavonic and East European Studies 9/2 (1995): 89-118.

This article gives the dates as 1914 - 1924 - imposed by the czar and lifted by the bolsheviks. Similarly this article talks about imposition by the tsar in 1914. Also this review states:

When war broke out in 1914, Nicholas II decreed a ban on alcohol sales for the duration of the war, a measure that proved suicidal for him and Russia's war effort by depriving the state of more than a quarter of its revenue.

I think on the basis of a number of sources the dates for Russia should be 1914 - 24.--A Y Arktos 19:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ship launched without champagne

In the case of :When the ship, Washington, was launched, a bottle of water rather than tradional champagne or wine, was ceremoniously broken across her bow. Was this the USS Washington (BB-47) launched in 1921?--A Y Arktos 20:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That would appear to be the ship, although I need to confirm it. My reference was Behr, E. Prohibition. New York: Arcade, 1996. Will when I can get to the library.David Justin 03:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Six Million Dollars

Says the article: "It had been estimated that six million dollars would be needed to enforce prohibition laws"

I'm guessing that that's $6M of the time - but I don't like having to guess, and I don't know for sure. Any chance of someone who does know either changing that to $USxx million 200x or $US6 million at 19xx rates.

[edit] Template

Added template on progressivism series. --Northmeister 23:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why just alcohol?

Why are we dealing just with Alcohol here? "prohibition" in India was when Hash was (And still is) banned, ditto Pakistan. Expand the scope methinks. I'm aware of the prohibition on drugs article, but, still. --Irishpunktom\talk 15:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. I came to this page seeking information about prohibition movements in general, specifically regarding late-1800s activism against cannabis (marijuana). I imagine other "prohibitions" might be spurred from the WP page titled "Prohibition". Thoughts? (Sorry I don't know enough about WP standards to feel adequate to the decision or task myself.) --tgeller 00:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

I think this article should be renamed to "Alcohol Prohibition" because there are many other forms of drug prohibitions. Zachorious 00:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's the standard term. Any other term would seriously confuse Wiki users. Rjensen 02:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bring back Prohibition in the U.S.!

I know that it can succeed if we brought it back.--72.65.232.88 18:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Only in Utah, my friend. --Mr. Lefty Talk to me! 21:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange bedfellows

There is a very large literature on the connections between prohibition, religion, and reform movements. It was not "strange." The fundamentalist Protestants were only marginally involved--Prohibition was pushed mostly by the mainline Protestant denominations, especially the Methodists, Northern Baptists, Disciples, Presbyterians and Congregationalists (as well as the , Southern Baptists and Scandinavian Lutherans). They had multiple goals (see Social Gospel) Rjensen 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I call a foul

I call a foul on the editing of this article, and it appears to me that the editors of several related articles have their own agenda and are not being "neutral". I could give many examples, and have in other articles on related topics, but let's just take this one.

I posted the links to the prohibition results page as well as the links to the Wickersham Commission Report and the transcripts of the Senate Judiciary committee hearings of 1926. All three were labeled "POV". Apparently, the editor didn't look at them well enough to tell what they were. On the prohibition results page a POV warning is perfectly fair because that is one person's collection of relevant quotes and info.

However, the Wickersham Commission Report is the OFFICIAL US government report on alcohol prohibition. The Senate Judiciary committee hearings are (why do I even have to explain this to "editors"?) the transcripts of congressional hearings. You know, the same as other transcripts of congressional hearings that have been linked for years on Wikipedia without a POV warning. In both cases, the books are presented in full text (or as much as I could manage) without editing or editorial comment. They are the same books you would find in any good university research library - which is where I found them.

In addition, let me state that I have never seen any occasion on which a POV warning has been placed on any US Government link on these topics. If anyone thinks the US Government doesn't have a POV on these issues then, quite frankly, they don't know enough about the subject to edit it. The US Government has had an official, and openly stated, policy of lying about drugs, prohibition, and related topics since at least 1925. That's not my opinion. I can give you the references.

So how about some changes here? How about removing the POV warning from places it doesn't belong, and how about placing a POV warning on a few more of the US Goverment links?

I would like to get these poor editing problems resolved because there are many things that could be expanded, corrected, or improved in these articles and, at the moment, the editing leaves much to be desired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfman97 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 27 August 2006

The POV rules apply to Wiki editors. They do NOT apply to original sources--practically all of which support one position or another. So I removed the POV tags. Rjensen 12:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much. To me it indicates that some of your editors have an agenda. Thank you again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfman97 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 27 August 2006

[edit] Merge/segregate USA section

The USA section dominates both the Prohibition page and the Temperance movement page. Instead of the proposed merger, perhaps USA should have its own Prohibition/temperance page, so it won't dominate the other two. -The Gomm 04:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Gomm has a good idea: a separate Prohibition in US page Rjensen 04:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
It's a good idea, however I think it's the rest of the world stuff that should be separated out. Prohibition as a word in this sense is mainly linked to the US Prohibition and most people searching for it will want info on that. So if anything is being split out it should be the rest into it's own page, not the US stuff. Ben W Bell talk 06:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Ben, good point, but what would be the term for prohibition in the rest of the world? How will somebody interested in non-US prohibition search for that material? -The Gomm 23:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
If you really feel the need to split it out then how about just "Prohibition outside the United States", "Prohibition (rest of world)" or "Alcohol prohibition" with the later one having a disambig link at the top pointing back to the main US Prohibition article. Ben W Bell talk 06:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting the article--is everyone ready?

Is everyone agreed on splitting the article. Perhaps the easiest way is to have two articles, (which will link to each other). Suggested titles:

  1. Prohibition in the United States
  2. Prohibition in the World

--any objections?? Rjensen 21:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the second article title. Rather I suggest moving out the US content into a separate article and leaving a reference to it in the Prohibition (this) article with {{ main|location }}
links talk view --Golden Wattle talk 22:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok we now have two articles, Prohibition and Prohibition in the United States Rjensen 22:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Non-POV

As stated above. Read the first paragraph of the article entry for evidence. Loaded language and an agenda. It is possible to make this more NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.198.234 (talk • contribs) 06:19, 26 September 2006

good point and I just deleted the junk POV. Rjensen 06:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I dispute neutrality and globalized point of view

This is a piece of ethnocentric propaganda! It should be rewritten in context with the global prohibition of drugs.

Also, the prohibition of non-alcoholic drugs is historically connected with the prohibition of alcohol in the US. Anti-drug agents were recruited from the Prohibition agents and sent against mexicans, chinese or black people with the pretext of whatever drug different from alcohol they could use.

That´s world history. Stop spoiling the wikipedia with American ethnocentrism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drcaldev (talk • contribs) 06:39, 26 September 2006

No this article is already global, and deals specifically with the prohibition of Alcohol around the world. It can't get any more global, and only deals with alcohol. Ben W Bell talk 06:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then the article is badly named. Its correct name should be Alcohol Prohibition, or Prohibition (Alcohol). The term prohibition in the sense of alcohol prohibition is an ethnocentric bias from an american chauvinistic point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drcaldev (talk • contribs) 06:43, 26 September 2006

I agree with Ben B Bell. Just a couple days ago we removed nearly all the American material (leaving just a short summary). One suspects our anonymous critic has a strong POV regarding future drug policy and could care less about the topics actually covered here. Rjensen 06:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Prohibition is a term related in the public psyche to the period in US history where alcohol was prohibited. The vast majority of people who come to Wikipedia and enter Prohibition are expecting to see that kind of article come up by default. Ben W Bell talk 06:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So you speak as the representantive of "the vast majority of people who come to Wikipedia", whose thought and expectations you think to know best. Please!

Then, I insist, the article dealing with global issues should be called Alcohol Prohibition and not the americanism Bell demonstrates. Drcaldev 06:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I represent no Americanism (whatever that is) whatsoever. This is an article that has been here for years and the name Prohibition is heavily associated, other than the dictionary definition which has no place on Wikipedia, with the period of US history from 1920 to 1933. This is a worldwide association. Ben W Bell talk 06:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I explain: an americanism is a localism. Such as when you say prohibition and think "everybody" understands it the way some american fellows do. Shouldn´t the wikipedia have its articles named coherently with the definitions given to the words in the dictionary?

The article should be called Prohibition (Alcohol) and Prohibition could redirect there, for the vast majority of readers that Bell thinks would be confused by learning new information, that is: that Prohibition is not what the government had taught us.

You can create an article about the "public psyche" whose thoughts you say you read. Drcaldev 07:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well this article is about a set of historical events named by historians as Prohibition. If you wish to start an article Prohibition (drugs) then by all means feel free to do so. Wikipedia has a first come policy on this sort of thing, and the historical article got the Prohibition name first. Ben W Bell talk 07:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, I think if you didn´t know there is already an article called Prohibition (drugs) (by the way a much better one than the one you are keeping me from improving a little) you demonstrate YOU DON´T KNOW A THING ABOUT PROHIBITON, DRUGS OR WHATEVER. ALCOHOL IS A DRUG, IS THAT TOO DIFFICULT TO GET? So why don´t you stop reverting like a stubborn policeman or whatever you like to play of, and let people who know a little about the stuff help!!?? Drcaldev 07:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

How come a person so ignorant of the wikipedia manages to get power to stop it from improving???? And messes with articles he doesn´t know a bit of?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drcaldev (talk • contribs) 08:02, 26 September 2006

Please calm down and read the article No Personal Attacks. And actually my interest in history is the world of the 1920s, which means I know a lot about Prohibition (with a capital P), the historical period to which this article pertains. As you can see this article is about historical periods where alcohol has been prohibited. It is not an article about how the US supposedly enforces it's drugs laws on everyone. It is not about how some feel drugs should be legalised, decriminalised or whatever and it is not about the oppression of global drugs by and for pharmaceutical companies to stymy their competitors. Ben W Bell talk 08:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so you are an expert in the 1920´s, and american prohibition of alcoholic beverages and all. Great. Perhaps the problem is there. For the article could take into consideration the historical context of the fact, that you say you know (even you act like don´t) the historical fact of the relationship between that Prohibition (you think as the One and Only Forever) and Prohibition of Drugs, in general, alcoholic or not, which is a more enciclopedic point-of-view. But the article, in its present form, seems to treat the topic in isolation, out of very important context. In that respect, the article seemed to me a localistic curiosity, which should be properly called Prohibition (Alcohol) in order to teach something new to your "public psyche" and not only what they already think they know. (And you with them). Anyway, this dispute seems to be over sources, mainly. Drcaldev 08:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge request with Prohibition (drugs)

Alcohol is a drug. Therefore I request the merging of Prohibition as Prohibition of Alcohol into the Prohibition (drugs) article. Drcaldev 08:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Request away, if others feel that way then fine. As it stands though the article isn't about the general prohibition of alcohol and drugs, but historical period of time where they have been prohibited and the effects this has had. True the article does in fact mention drugs as well so it stands to reason it can have information on the specific periods where drugs were prohibited, however the impact is a little more complicated than the blanket alcohol bans labelled as Prohibition. Saying that cocaine is illegal in Bolivia from 19xx or the like seems to go against the grain of the article as it stands. But lets see what others have to say on the matter. Ben W Bell talk 08:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

And please, read Prohibition (drugs), it will expand your claimed knowledge of the subject. Drcaldev 08:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC) Very useful too would be Antonomasia.

  • Oppose proposed merger and/or rename - as per Ben W Bell, prohibition is a term related in the public psyche to the prohibition of alcohol and needs no further disambiguation - the article covers world-wide experiences - can be improved still but ... don't see the need for changes proposed by User:Drcaldev --Golden Wattle talk 08:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
  • oppose alcohol is a drug is a POV theme that distorts the encyclopedia. Rjensen 06:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To say alcohol is not a drug constitutes POV

    • The above comment constitutes genuine POV by its author. That should void his vote, because it shows bad faith: voting on issues he hasn´t even read about!!!

The fact that alcohol is a drug is undenieable on pharmacological grounds. It is actually the second most addictive, the only brain damaging, drug. Those who want to believe propaganda that promotes alcoholism by saying is not a drug, beware! You´re being cheated into the only truly dementiating drug addiction. If you already drink alcohol regularly, you are a drug addict by definition, with the added risk of using the most common drug agent responsible for inducing acquired mental retardation or dementia.

It´s hard. But it´s true. Please don´t term or try to discuss hard facts (such as alcohol being a drug) POV, because that is actually evident and self-confessed POV. I think the assertion "alcohol is not a drug" should be enough to ban those persons from editing drug related articles. Such intent is proper vandalism. If you don´t know the most basic facts, don´t mess with it. How´s that called? "Bigotry" Drcaldev 06:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Those votes obviously obtained with pressure of Ben Bell on users unaware of the discussion should be void. People are being pushed to vote without information on the issue. That´s more vandalism by Ben Bell!!! He knows better of aircrafts, bombs and that stuff. Why mess with drugs? Drcaldev 06:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me what on earth are you talking about? Why do I know more about bombs and stuff? If you'd like to check you'll find I've contacted absolutely no one on this topic and every comment on it is made plain on this page. If you do not stop with the personal attacks then unfortunately you will be temporarily blocked from editing Wikipedia. Ben W Bell talk 06:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but you are the one who begun since your first comment with personal attacks and that´s already demonstrated. You are just provoking a discussion on topics you and your friends ignore, but are very POV about. Stop doing that. This is not tha Hawkypedia. You are being POV and you are the personal attacker on first place. I´m defending a good faith contribution from persistent vandalism by uninformed organized editors. Drcaldev 06:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

And you know "what on earth" I´m talking about: you create articles on aircraft and weapons and stuff like that. Then you come here pretending to know everything about what you call " the prohibition" around your town, then asking for deleting articles, while showing complete ignorance of even the fact that there exists an article named Prohibition (drugs). So I´m talking about you creating articles on aircrafts, and fighting true vandalism, doesn´t give you rights to delete and discuss articles you don´t know a bit about. Non sequitur. If you say alcohol is not a drug, it´s enough: you demonstrate the worthlessness of your opinions on those matters. You can´t apply the same militar/conservative values to every issue on wikipedia, even if you are a wikipoliceman or something. Drcaldev 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's not garble the issue. Prohobition was a political/social movement in many countries focues on the social and economic costs produced by drinking--with closely related issues of crime, ethnicity, saloon power, religious moralism, police power, personal liberty and many other issues. The medical question of its drug-effects on the human body was a minor dimension of the debate--please read some of the books!--and that is why the topic is separate. Rjensen 07:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe I've ever created an article on a weapon or bomb on Wikipedia, or ever denied that alcohol is a drug. You must have me confused with someone else, it seems to be common. Ben W Bell talk 07:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Remember physicians were allowed to prescribe alcoholic beverages during your prohibition? Remember the American Medical Association had to complain because covered prohibition agents had already blackmailed or jailed a lot of doctors for being indulgent with wine and whiskey prescriptions.... Again that´s already mentioned in Prohibtion (drugs).

Perhaps Prohibition should merge with United States history, if is not about the broad sociological phenomena of prohibtion of certain drugs (such as alcohol). Drcaldev 07:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

No this article is about the periods of history generally called Probihition. Ben W Bell talk 07:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prohibition in the sense you use it, is a synecdoche, and an american localism

"The Prohibition" for "The Prohibition of production, trade and consumption of Alcoholic Drugs in the United States from 1919 to 1933" constitutes an instance of the rethoric figure called synecdoche (not antonomasia, as Ben Bell correctly pointed out). Drcaldev 08:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is not an American localism. It is an accepted term in use by historians across the world for these periods. Ben W Bell talk 08:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Localism? well no.... The term "prohibition" is standard in Canada for example. (proof: [2] and was widely used for Europe [[3] and in England [4] and [5] Rjensen 08:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, ad populum. I don´t really see "historians all across the world" (unless you are using "world" for "the United States of America" as when you say World Series) confusing a concrete local historical event with a global defined term that means the action and effect of prohibiting anything (such as books or pornography, hence connection with censorship). I think history of the United States is very important, but can´t substitute a global point of view. Historians around non-american World refer to it as Prohibition of Alcohol in the US at the beginning of 20th century, or something like that. Any way, even giving to you that some historians in some books use that synecdochic meaning, that´s not an argument for avoiding precision in Wikipedia. Prohibition is almost a self-explaining word, famouse uses should be pointed out as that, explicitly, and not assuming everybody fetches old meanings of the words. In other words, you are giving for current a historical conception of Prohibitions, which is outdated. Nowadays Prohibition means Prohibition. In the 1930´s it could not because ignorance was bigger and one could say alcohol was not a drug, as Rjensen still says. If we know better now, why sticking to old loaded feelings? Drcaldev 09:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopaedia, not a dictonary. The Prohibition page was created to provide information on historical periods concerning the prohibition of alcohol which have generally been name Prohibition by both historians and people living at the time of such prohibitions. It isn't being used in this article as a more general term of prohibition, but that of these historical periods. A page defining prohibition has no place on Wikipedia, maybe on Wictionary. Wikipedia uses it in this sense, if you're not happy with it and want to be able to have a page where you can criticise the current legalities and moral issues of the US government not letting it's citizens use cocaine and the like then you're in the wrong place. Ben W Bell talk 09:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You are very wrong here. To historians (and everyone else) in the English-speaking world (and you will note that neither I nor Ben W Bell are American), "Prohibition" without a qualifier always means the Prohibition in the USA from 1919 to 1933. It is the most famous Prohibition by far outside its country of origin. It is not used by "some historians in some books", but by all historians in all books on the subject. The fact that you don't agree that the term should be used is irrelevant to its actual usage by the majority of the population of the English-speaking world. -- Necrothesp 09:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)-- Necrothesp 09:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A search for "Prohibition of Alcohol in the United States" returns 1190 hits in google. Is a common and more precise term. Prohibition in your outdated terminology is just a synecdoche, very popular one, indeed. But if you say the dictionary is bad, alcohol is not a drug, etc... There is no point in discussing. Conservative poppers would keep popping and spoiling the wikipedia with propaganda.

Keep drinking and say no to drugs, cops like that, boys!!! Drcaldev 10:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

In fact, enough information about Prohibition of Alcohol is already contained in the Prohibition (drugs) article. "Prohibition" should be at least renamed to Prohibition (alcohol) or merged into the history of the few countries treated there (but called "the world"). Drcaldev 10:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Your assumption that anyone who disagrees with your POV is a "conservative" or a "propagandist" (or other description used in an obviously pejorative sense) is a) offensive, b) inaccurate, and c) highly POV. You merely damage your own position by making these wild accusations. -- Necrothesp 10:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up proposal: Prohibition (historical) aside from Prohibition (current).

The confusion is enormous, because the propaganda tactic for making people think they are not living under an actual Prohibition seems to have been very effective.

Also a lot of people attacking my criticism tend to be military oriented. Since militias and police are known to profit (indirectly and directly) from the Prohibition/Promotion of Certain Drugs (as Reinarman and Levine state in his "Secret of Worldwide Drug Prohibition", and Chomsky in the links and quotes given, etc) this is seems a conflict of interest.

Drug war propaganda justifies a lot of budget to repressive forces. Representatives and sympathizers with these are usually brainwashed by their superiors and their training to defend to death this current profitable Prohibition, in which the budget to pay their salaries heavily depends.

So I understand the virulent oppossition to a global point of view on the matter. Wikipedia seems to be intervened by the military. Let´s hope civil society could make a Civilipedia to compete with these Armypedia... Drcaldev 16:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

By all means create a "Prohibition (current)" page, and link it from here, but this page should stay as it is, a resource to the historical periods known worldwide as Prohibition. However you have been warned several times for your personal attacks against other users, and the above comments yet again exemplify this tendancy for you to attack other users who do not agree with your own POV. Ben W Bell talk 16:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I´ve already apologized (well, indr¡irectly) but you people who begun calling me soapboxer and original researcher (before reading articles such as Prohibition (drugs) have not). That´s bad wikiquette too.

My assertions on the conflict of interest between military and paramilitary sympathizers and Prohibition issues are verifiable and not personally directed as attacks. Nobody has retracted from saying alcohol is not a drug (clear POV) while accussing me of being POV for telling the fact that alcohol is a drug! Drcaldev 16:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So these military and paramilitary sympathisers, who might they be? And I have never denied alcohol is a drug, and personally I'd be quite happy if alcohol was removed from the world. Ben W Bell talk 17:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Created Prohibition (historical), Prohibition (current) and requested Prohibition (disambiguation)

Prohibition (historical) links to your nice page on past Alcohol Prohibitions.

Prohibition (current) links to the Prohibition we nowadays live under. Drcaldev 17:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

How is Prohibition (current) a distinct subject from Prohibition (drugs)? Gazpacho 21:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you want to learn things, you have to read Prohibition (drugs) and "Prohibition" (which should be renamed Prohibtion (Alcoholic Drugs)). Drcaldev 02:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Request for Redirection of Prohibition to Prohibition (disambiguation)

I´m asking for consensus to redirect Prohibition to Prohibition (disambiguation), because of inherent ambiguity of the term prohibition, as shown in Wikipedia and Wiktionary. Drcaldev 03:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] take a vote on redirect Prohibition to Prohibition (disambiguation),

Let's take a vote on to redirect Prohibition to Prohibition (disambiguation)

  1. NO Rjensen 05:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  2. (edit conflict) Clearly unnecessary, since the term is generally understood to describe US Prohibition (as described by other editors above). A dab link at the top of the page would be sufficient (see WP:DAB), although I'm not convinced even that is necessary. bikeable (talk) 05:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  3. No. Hasn't been shown to be necessary or useful, and there is no confusion over the term Prohibition as it corresponds to historical periods and this is understood worldwide. Ben W Bell talk 07:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  4. Absolutely no. Minority opinion which doesn't reflect actual common usage. -- Necrothesp 10:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  5. No, at this point a link should do at the top of this page. People think of the history of prohibtion more commonly. HighInBC 14:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  6. No, however, the article header {{otheruses}} could be added to the prohibition article to make it clear the disambiguation page exists--Golden Wattle talk 01:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  7. Yes. Why is a historical, past event (alcohol was legalized a lot time ago) prevailing and even blocking searchers from reading about a current event, in the Wikipedia? Strange to see ambiguity solved by prevalence of past over present (and future). Drcaldev 16:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a current affairs guide. Ergo, why should current events, especially those interpreted in a way most definitely not endorsed by the majority (as you can surely see from the lack of support for your views here), take precedence over historical events which have entered the cultural memory (and not only, contrary to your allegations, that of the United States, but the whole English-speaking world)? -- Necrothesp 16:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
If you read the article, you would find that alcohol is not legal everywhere and prohibition is still current in parts of the world.--Golden Wattle talk 19:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Current events, regardless of its interpretations, should at least take equal precedence than historical events. This I propose instead of the actual disposition, which gives so much precedence to the historical prohibition of a singular drug (whose article fails to provide any link to the current prohibition, even though is a historical fact that the actual prohibition is derived from the historical one!). In this way wikipedia would be more integral and informative, and less POV, in my opinion.
It is noteworthy that Ben W Bell, who claimed to be an expert on Prohibition, showed to ignore about the existence of the article Prohibition (drugs). This shows how much the article on Prohibition can block even the most "informed" reader from informing about the current history of the phenomena!
I have to insist on the point: 1. alcohol is a drug, 2. there is an article on prohibition of drugs (that now we all know about), then 3. Why alcohol prohibition doesn´t belong there? Can somebody explain that without resorting to ad populum fallacies, as has invariably being done until now in this discussion? I mean without saying: things are thus because everybody agrees with us, we are majority, etc. Which is a fallacious appeal because wikipedia is no democracy. This is: you "ten" people who agree with each other could be (and to me seem to be) wrong, anyway! Drcaldev 16:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
No it isn't democracy but it is the way that Wikipedia works. You have failed to build a consensus for your proposal. The longer you contribute here, the more often that will happen. I have lost numerous arguments this way but the work goes on. You can't always be on the winning side, you just make the articles the best you can. Rmhermen 20:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prohibitionism should not redirect here, but be new article.

Prohibitionism is not the same as Prohibition. Prohibition refers to laws or legislation occurrences, while prohibitionism refers to political stances, parties, ideology and moral opinions, etc! Drcaldev 16:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I disagree that the article shoud redirect here, it is not merely a stub but a dictionary definition. Happy for it to redirect tot he disambiguation page if you prefer but it should not be a content fork or merely a definition.--Golden Wattle talk 19:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-German mood?

I question the relevancy/accuracy of this sentence:

"Supported by the anti-German mood of World War I,the Anti-Saloon League, working with both major parties, pushed a Constitutional amendment through Congress and the states..."

What material I've read about Prohibition in the U.S. indicates that the movement and the amendments had little to do with an ethnic/nationalistic bias towards alcohol. America had its own deeply-planted roots of alcohol abuse to contend with; no finger-pointing to beer-drinking Germans, wine-drinking Italians, or whiskey-imbibing Canadians was necessary (if that's what the "anti-German" part refers to). Prohibition was a reaction against what was seen as a dissolution of morals, brought on in part by the atrocities of WWI, but also the Communist "Red" scare, the advent of radio, the Suffrage movement, and a host of other things.

Thoughts about moving to strike "Supported by the anti-German mood of World War I" and leaving the rest as is?

Most historians emphasize the ethnic angle. The German American community, after all, brewed nearly all the beer. The beer companies owned most saloons (says Duis), and they hired Irish barkeepers. The Germans were in VERY bad odor during the war. The wine drinking Italians were not too visible but they too were covered. Rjensen 21:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Were not also claims against Irish drunks? Perhaps racism/xenophobia should be mentioned as a claimed or supportive background to the prohibition of alcoholic drugs by USA, just as it is in the article on Prohibition of drugs (including alcohol) which should take precedence over this one. Drcaldev 01:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

in wwi era I don't think I recall many complaints about irish drunks. Rjensen 02:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date is assuredly wrong on Volstead Act.

The article says "Volstead Act (passed October 28, 1934). " but the Volstead Act was at the beginning of the prohibition era, not the end.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.207.34 (talk) 03:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC).


[edit] Confusing information

Prohibition page sub section :United States: says " However, note that according to the text, the purchase, possession and consumption of alcohol was not prohibited." but the linked main page :Prohibition in the United States: says "At any time possession of liquor, wine or beer was illegal. Drinking alcohol was never technically illegal, but one who was drinking was liable for prosecution on the grounds that they possessed the alcohol they were drinking." Purchase is not even mentioned.

I was left totally confused. Which version is correct?

65.32.235.30 08:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I am completly confused by this completely somone please give some accurate information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.191.2 (talk) 19:30, 8 January 2007

[edit] Come on people, prohibition shouldn't redirect here

I understand that there is a period of time known as "Prohibition" where alcohol was illegal. But that doesn't mean prohibition should redirect here because other uses of the term prohibition have equal validity. You can argue all you want that the world thinks of alcohol prohibition when they hear "prohibition", but there is no proof for this. I know many people that uses the term "prohibition" for drug prohibition first. So prohibition should redirect to "Prohibition (disambiguation)". And I will make this change soon unless any of you can come up with a good reason why I shouldn't. Zachorious 22:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

One good reason is that Wikipedia has a tradition of first come first served. There is no problem with listing a link to a Prohibition (disambiguation) at the top of the page, but this article has been here for many years. See articles like Firefly, United States and many others. Having a disambiguation page is fine, but this article should stay just as it is as has been decided in previous discussions (see above). Ben W Bell talk 08:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the word "Prohibition" can refer to the illegality of certain non-alcohol drugs, particularly in present times. I really REALLY think this needs to be mentioned somewhere in the article. By denying this meaning of the word Prohibition, the article, I believe, avoids an extremely pertinent issue to which the word relates right now. Talking about the past is fine, but at very least could we have a disambiguation page and make the current Prohibition article Prohibition (alcohol) instead? I didn't even know the Prohibition (drugs) page existed. Some websites: - Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, Prohibition Has Failed, an article by David Boaz, and Drugs, a similar article by Milton Friedman, Time to Rethink Drug Prohibition, Anthony Papa, Does Drug Prohibition Help Terrorists?, Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy, The So-Called War on Drugs. Clearly the word Prohibition USED to refer to Alcohol Prohibition particularly, but in modern times, the word, in reference to "drug prohibition", is obviously getting around. People are using it in this sense, Wikipedia needs to do so as well. 150.203.11.219 04:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

150.203.11.219 is right. The "first come first served" "tradition" doesn't make much sense. Wikipedia isn't based on tradition but rather a rapid progression and update of facts. Furthermore, there is no evidence that alcohol prohibition uses the term more than general drug prohibition. As the above user mentioned, so many drug organizations use the term "prohibition".

If a source is not found soon that proves that the worldwide view of prohibition means only alcohol prohibition, I'm going to redirect "Prohibition" to the disambiguation page and re-title this Prohibition (drugs). Zachorious 10:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging of this article to Prohibition of drugs, for the sake of pharmacological soundness, please!

Alcohol is one of the most common and seriously impairing drugs of abuse. This is an undenieable fact. The article on prohibitionism of alcohol must merge with that on prohibitionism of the rest of drugs, and historical and economical relationships between legalization of alcohol and prohibition of alternative drugs of minorities should be emphasized. Propagandizing alcohol as a "commodity" or other euphemisms is promotion of alcoholism, and should be suspectful of relation with alcoholicdrugaddicts or narcotrafficants of alcohol (this is alcohol producers and those growing several plants for the manufacture of this lethal and addicting substance). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drcaldev (talk • contribs) 04:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh you're back. These discussions have been had before and community consensus has been reached. Please read through the discussions before pushing for the same edits again that you did last year. Ben W Bell talk 13:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed? And what was the argument for community consenting on classifying alcohol among food and drinks and not among drugs? Go on and read the article named Alcohol. And what is the term for a community consensus to be revised? These same discussions couldn´t have been had before, because "nobody bathes twice in the same river". I think the position of Ben W Bell et al. on alcohol erodes deeply the scientific credibility of this article. Reading of the first paragraphs of the article entitled Alcohol would help "community" revise this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drcaldev (talk • contribs) 01:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Nobody bathes twice in the same river? Eh? Tell that to people who live near and bathe in rivers. I've no idea what you're talkig about. I've read the first few paragraphs and don't see the relevance. What of the many definitions of drug are you talking about? Everything is a drug under a broad enough definition. And why should it be merged? The article on prohibition of alcohol is about various countries prohibiting alcohol. Merge it into other drugs prohibition and it will be moved back out almost instantly as it covers enough of a social and historical area to warrant its own article. Why merge a large article into another just because you don't like it? Ben W Bell talk 02:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australian Alcohol Ban

It should probably be noted that there has been a great deal of controversy surrounding the government's proposed ban on alcohol and pornography in Aboriginal communities, aimed at minimising and/or preventing child abuse. Some argue that a better approach would be to consult with Aboriginal leaders rather than applying a blanket ban and create initiatives to improve the quality of life of the Aboriginal people.

From a quick search on google - here's an article from BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6229708.stm Skylarken (talk) 10:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 02:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

"Prohibition" redirects here. Huh? Why not just leave the article title "Prohibition". The word prohibition commonly refers to prohibition of alcohol just like it says in the article ("often shortened to the term prohibition"). This was moved with no discussion on 8 August 2007. Prohibition of drugs is clearly identified by the tophat, as well as other uses. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 18:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. There was a debate on this and at one point someone moved the article, but I don't actually recall there being a consensus to do so. Canterbury Tail talk 19:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Many things have been prohibited in many lands down the years and centuries. The USA alcohol prohibition ended 75 years ago and is less noteworthy in countries where there has not been a prohibition of alcohol, and to many people in such countries is less in the attention than some other prohibitions. Leave Prohibition of alcohol where it is. Consider moving Prohibition (disambiguation) to Prohibition. (I am in England.) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Unsure. Support. In the culture(s) in which I've spoken English, either prohibition used as a noun on its own, or the phrase the prohibition era, both mean prohibition of alcohol in the USA, 1920-1933. This won't be true of all English-speaking cultures I guess. Difficult. Andrewa (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Changing to support in view of Llamasharmafarmerdrama's arguments below. Andrewa (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. From UK here, and the only time I have heard the term used by itself (i.e. not "prohibition of...xyz") is in reference to 1920s America. There are also many scholarly examples of the word used in isolation: see this simple Google Book search and this Google Scholar search. "Drug prohibition" seems to be referred to specifically as such, where the historical period of alcohol prohibition gets the word by itself. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 21:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, that's my experience too. When used on its own and not in any particular context in Australia, prohibition invariably means America in the 1920s, speakeasys, tommy guns, that sort of thing. In a particular context this could change, for example in a discussion of marijuana of course it could mean prohibition of that drug, but even in that context the word on its own could be ambiguous, and could refer to alcohol in the USA in the 1920s. Changing my vote above. Andrewa (talk) 00:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There have been many prohibitions of many sorts of things. The distinction between Prohibition and prohibition may be apparent in writing, but not in speech, nor as a Wikipedia article name. Here in England the USA alcohol Prohibition was something that happened abroad and was of little day-to-day relevance. For clarity keep the full descriptive name Prohibition of alcohol. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
It would be better to use that as an alternate title, not the article location. Many people who are looking for the article are needlessly being redirected through the disambiguation page. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 21:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Prohibition in Thailand

I think I should put the part about Thailand away. Because Thailand doesn't ban selling of alcohol, but there is time limit of selling alcohol. The sell may be purchased 10am-2pm and 5pm until midnight, there is exeption for whole sale (10 litres or more) can be sold at any time. And there is the law about prohibition on the day before and the day of election (in case of particular area election, there is prohibition only in the district where the election is held.) Just yesterday(14 April,08), there has been some suggestion of alcohol prohibition on Thai festival days, to reduce the traffic death rate on holiday period. However, it's still being disputed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.25.71.133 (talk) 16:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)