Talk:Prohibition (drugs)

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[edit] Accuracy

I'm looking at the penalties section, and the American section seems to be very inaccurate. In the U.S., the penalty for illegal drug possession and sale can vary from 1 year to a life sentence. Most non-violent first time offenders guilty of drug possession get a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years with no parole, or 10 years with no parole if he has a large quantity of drugs. This prison time is doubled (10 or 20 years) if has been imprisoned for drug possession before.

None of that is true, so I'm replacing it.

[edit] POV issues

Hi folks. Just surfed in and took a look at this article. You guys have some good material here to work with, but I'm a bit concerned about how the facts are presented.

Let me just begin by noting that wrt my personal politics, I'm very much against drug prohibition and the war on drugs. I'm also aware that most people in on-line communities (I'll presume this includes Wikipedia) share my stance. So we have to guard against preaching to the choir, as it were, and it seems to me that much of this article does just that.

The truth is, the war on drugs (at least as it's carried out now) is probably bad for society and it makes sense that we should point that out, but despite us all agreeing on this fact, many folks don't and will be suspicious of our claims to the contrary. The best way we can convince them is by referencing this article. So here are some issues I had, reading the article -- things I think need to be referenced.

A major campaign against hashish-eating Sufis was conducted in Egypt in the 11th and 12th centuries resulting among other things in the burning of fields of cannabis, and the public torture of hashish users (Ref 1).

So here's one of the few examples of a referenced point. I'm including it because I think we should use the more widely used '[1]' notation, with '[1]' linking directly to the reference in question (if possible), as well as being elaborated on in the references section.

... Pope Clement VIII sanctioned its [coffee's] use, declaring that it was "so delicious that it would be a pity to let the infidels have exclusive use of it."

This is a great quote, and precisely because it's so great, it deserves a reference.

The inspiration was "many women and young girls, as well as young men of respectable family, were being induced to visit the Chinese opium-smoking dens, where they were ruined morally and otherwise."

The use of quotation marks seems to imply that this is a quote. If it is, it should be referenced. Otherwise, we should avoid the use of quotes, because it will give readers the impression that this is a quote, and when a skeptical reader tries to find a reference and fails, we will be accused of trying to seem authorative. Not good.

This was followed by other laws throughout the country, and federal laws which barred Chinese people from trafficking in opium.

In general, when we make references to laws, we should back them up with evidence. Laws or court decisions, even if later overturned, leave paper records that we can reference. Again, I don't doubt that these laws existed, but we must avoid group-think -- pretty much everyone that cares to edit wikipedia (for the most part) is likely to be for drug legalization or at least against the racist policies that have classically motivated the drug war in the US. As such, we aren't likely to get much criticism from our fellow editors, but we must try to maintain objectivity and back our assertions up with facts. Remember, in the US, drugs are illegal and most people believe that these laws are justified in some respects. If tell them that the reason Opium was illegalized in the US had nothing whatever to do with health and everything to do with anti-Chinese sentiments in the late 19th century, we're asking them to abandon years of indoctrinated group-think. They won't give this up easily, so we must point them to authoritive sources that support our claims.

The laws were aimed at smoking opium, but not otherwise ingesting it. 1

Ok, a reference! But it's numbered 1, when there have been 2 other references before it, isn't enclosed in square brackets or preceded by "Reference" or "Ref" indicating it's a reference, and the linked URL is not present in the reference section at all, much less under 1.

Newspapers used terms like "Negro Cocaine Fiends" and "Cocainized Niggers" to drive up sales, causing a nationwide panic about the rape of white women by black men, high on cocaine.

Again, references. If these were actual headlines, there should be records of them. We should include the newspaper names, the dates published, or at least point to a reference work that references them. The idea that cocaine was a "black drug" is not new, but is not widely accepted by people -- and to many modern readers with short memories, the idea of a newspaper publishing an article with "Nigger" or "Negro" in the title will produce profound cognitive dissonance. They won't want to believe it, and so they won't. We must back this sort of stuff up, precisely because it makes people uncomfortable.

Many police forces changed from a .32 caliber to a .38 caliber pistol because the smaller gun was supposedly unable to kill black men when they were high on cocaine.

Definitely needs a reference. Where are you getting this from?

The supporters of the Harrison Act did not support blanket prohibition of the drugs involved 1

Again, the same reference issue. It's good that we have a reference, but why is there just a random 1 here (this is the third 1 in a row). We need to number these properly and put them in the References section.

Harry J. Anslinger (Bureau of Narcotics Commissioner) testified in hearings on the subject that the hemp plant needed to be banned because it had a violent "effect on the degenerate races". This specifically referred to Mexican immigrants who had entered the country, seeking jobs during the Great Depression.

I've heard this too. But we need a reference, especially with the quote. All quotes should be referenced, I think -- not just to lend credibility, but also so that we can cover our asses. A single misattributed quote will invalidate the whole article in the mind of someone that doesn't want to believe what we're saying.

A War on Drugs is usually run like a modern war with police and other law enforcement officers instead of military personnel. The apparatus prepared for the War is ordinarily organized to face guerrilla situations, armed attacks or counter-attacks and bombings. These tactics include espionage, as undercover agents (spies) are used to infiltrate drug use and trafficking circles.

Isn't this a little extreme? Using undercover agents is a typical techinique used by law enforcement agencies to penetrate any sort of organized crime circle; the fact that much organized crime involves drugs doesn't mean that the use of undercover agents or raids specifically originated with the drug war, which is what I read this as implying.

For example, the United States recently brought charges against club owners for maintaining a place of business where a) Ecstasy is known to be frequently consumed; b) paraphernalia associated with the use of Ecstasy is sold and/or widely tolerated (such as glow sticks and pacifiers); and c) "chill-out rooms" are created, where Ecstasy users can cool down (Ecstasy raises the user's blood temperature). These are being challenged in court by organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Drug Policy Alliance.

What charges? What cases? Include them.

Many countries allow the use of undercover law enforcement officers solely or primarily for the enforcement of laws against recreational use of certain drugs. Many of these officers are allowed to commit crimes if it is necessary to maintain the secrecy of the investigation, or in order to collect adequate evidence for a conviction.

Ok, I mean, listen, I agree with the points raised in this article and even I'm rolling my eyes! "Many countries"? "Many of these officers"? How vague can you possibly be? Which crimes can be committed? Is this little stuff, like police officers being allowed to speed, or is it big stuff, like killing people? What evidence do we have of these claims?

The War on Drugs has stimulated the creation of international law enforcement agencies (such as Interpol), mostly in Western countries. This has occurred because a large volume of illicit drugs come from Third-World countries.

Interpol was created in 1923. "The War on Drugs", which to me (and probably most readers) very specifically refers to the US policy started by Nixon in 1972, came rather later than that. Further, the US had very little of its current political clout in the 20s, so I'm not sure this is true. If it is true, it probably ought to be qualified, and the use of "The War on Drugs" (note the capitalization) should almost certainly not be used.

All of this comes from a very light reading. Basically, I advocate:

numbering all references using normal endnote notation, in order starting with [1]
directly linking each reference to the page in question when dealing with an internet source
enumerating all references in the references section, with the number agreeing with the endnote
prefering to link to published, verifiable material (such as laws, dead tree journals, books, etc) rather than obviously pro-drug legalization sites, when possible
maintaining a policy of referencing all quotes, without exception.

Ideally, the original authors are aware of where they lifted these quotes from and can provide the references without too much trouble. I'd make some of these changes myself but I'd rather see if this article is anyone's baby first, and get some feedback on my points.

I think we could turn this into a good article, but we need to NPOVify it and reference stuff that might be interpreted as POV because it goes against popular propaganda.

Cheers. 202.96.246.206 03:55, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good stuff, should be a good basis for improving the article. My impression is that the article is no-one in particular's baby, i.e. I think there have been many contributors. Speaking for myself, I referenced my own additions (most of the early history section) as much as possible. The Pope Clemens one I didn't reference because I couldn't find a particular reference for it that was particularly more authoritative than any other one (all were web pages).. some more digging required there but I didn't have time.

Re the referencing style, lack of guidelines for this was always one of my biggest gripes but I see that wikipedia now has a [Wikipedia:Cite sources|policy for citations]. We should try to abide by it. Rkundalini 05:21, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I made some minor changes to the 2nd paragraph of the article, as before it sounded a little bit biased against prohibition. In my mind, it seemed to case prohibitionists as closed minded and fanatical. While this may be true of some prohibitionists, I felt that the wording could have been more neutral. I hope no one minds. --137.44.195.107

Hi I just added a couple of references. I hope this doesn't come across as endorsing Edward Hunting Williams NY times article "Negro Cocaine 'Fiends' Are a New Southern Menace" - but I thought it was pretty interesting that it exists. I also added my source - Lusane 1991 --198.45.26.20 28 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)

Hi, I haven't made this change but in the third paragraph of early drug use there is "In Northern Europe, the Protestants were also guilty of passing drug laws motivated by religious intolerance," I think guilty is kinda strong and subjective , I don't think we should pass judgement here , sure it was a stupid to pass laws based on religious intolerance but the article should stay objective and just say they did and that's all

--wikipedia@domn.net 31 July 14:39 (GMT-5)

This doesn't seem like a very neutral article. Cite some sources, otherwise it seems like this is just spouting off that drug prohibititon is solely for the purpose of keeping the colored man down and there is certainly more to it than that.

While I can see some POV turns of phrase here and there, I don't agree that the whole article is slanted this way. In fact it doesn't really try to go into the "purpose" of drug prohibition, it is mainly an exposition of the history of it and the current legal provisions. Some months ago an attempt was made to move all POV stuff to Arguments for and against drug prohibition. Why don't you have a go at rephrasing, removing or moving the offending pieces as you see fit? -- Rkundalini 03:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

While it's not trying to go into pros and cons, it says many things I would call...dubious. I'm going to tag it as dereferenced, as I cannot see, offhand, what gets referenced where. Sim 01:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contrib from 134.154.15.137

A major reason for the war on drugs is that many powerful individuals, political organizations, and businesses benefit from the illegality. See Leavitt or Miller or McCoy.

This may be 100% true, but it needs to be expanded for relevance. It's current form does not improve the article. Perhaps User:134.154.15.137 will see this and decide to improve it. --Viriditas | Talk 13:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ditto. It belongs in Arguments for and against drug prohibition. It could potentially find place up the top of the article in much abbreviated form, prefixed by something along the lines that "some people argue that". Rkundalini 01:06, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate reference to Edward VI

In 1536 Edward VI commended hopped beer as "notable, healthy and temperate", while the exclusive use of hops had been compulsory in France since 1268 (Ref 3).

I know that this comes directly from the web-page referenced (http://www.greydragon.org/library/hops.html), but you'll find that Edward VI was not born until the following year.

I'm sure there is some fact in this—Edward probably did actually say it, but when?

I have removed the offending part, since it is obviously innacurate, and since nobody can find a reasonable explanation for the mistake. If anyone does, please mention it. — Doshea3 02:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Structural violence

"Structural violence" was listed under the "Methods of enforcement" section. This is a loaded term and thus not NPOV. If someone else sees a justification for doing so, I have no problem with adding material about how some things that some people call "structural violence" are used to discourage people from using certain drugs. The structural violence article does not contain any information about that sort of thing, so I'm not sure what, exactly, was intended. Any material should also clarify whether it is a government, a society, or other entity that is using such methods; the existing section is rather fuzzy on that issue. -- Beland 02:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article bounces back and forth between US-centric and generic perspectives

66.167.138.63 10:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC):This article needs a good editor to either turn it into a US-specific article (under a different title) or a generic article on the topic.

Although I agree with your comment, in my opinion the worldwide stance on drugs is highly influenced by the US position. Any country that might consider other policies is strong armed by the US-led international community (i.e. suggesting to treat addiction as disease and not as crime). Should that be the case it is inevitable that the international and US 'war on drugs' are discussed in the same article. --Nomen Nescio 16:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Drug prohibition the world over is a result of U.S. policy setting initiatives. See Global Business Regulation by Braithwaite and Drahos for an extended exposition on this point. -- pde 14:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] clarification

the third paragraph reads:

Nixon's modern-day "War on Drugs" began in 1971. In 1988 the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) was created to combat drug abuse, which he characterized as "America's public enemy number one." Nixon's new initiative was another milestone for the U.S. in the consideration of drug addiction as a public problem.

this paragraph seems somewhat disjointed (possibly more than one author). nixon did not create the office of national drug control policy. it was created in 1988 under the Anti Drug Abuse Act. as such, it also leaves "nixon's new intiative" hanging without any support. if the quote "public enemy number one" can be attested to nixon, a more appropriate sentence might read:

Nixon's modern-day "War on Drugs" began in 1971; he characterized drug use as "America's public enemy number one." and then add some statement such as, "he created an intiative known as X..."

as it stands, the conflation of the "war on drugs" with the creation of ONDCP is incorrect and misleading and cannot be attributed to nixon, as it reads now.

[edit] +drug prohibition+pros+cons

[edit] Edit by 199.172.169.17

User:199.172.169.17: I removed the copy that you wrote, because you made no attempt to integrate it into the rest of the article. Please try again, but this time go through the article as it stands, and see what you have to add that is new and verifiable. Also, here at Wikipedia, we don't sign our contributions to articles. If you want some recognition for what you have written, register a user account, and others will be able to see what contributions you have made. --Slashme 06:21, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] nothing on the connection between US foreign oil policy and the war on drugs?

And the US very selective war on coca, and the alleged drug trafficking of the CIA? I was looking for somewhat objective sources on these controversial issues.

[edit] Suggestion on shortening the ext links

In its current state and numbers they are incalculable. Those used for references should be marked as such and kept into a "resources" section. The bulk can be removed.

Fred-Chess 05:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Methods of enforcement section's questionable neutrality

The "methods of enforcement" section is quite in favour of the American government's coca eradication program in Colombia and doesn't mention some of the problems it's caused, such as also killing other legal crops. Trystan Morris-Davies 23:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Netherlands" section very POV

Quotes:

... Gedoogbeleid has considerable advantages, making it the most successful policy in the post-industrial world.
It would be hypocritical to accept that...
There is however some hope that the political climate could change, ...

Completely unencyclopedic. --Apoc2400 08:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"It would be hypocritical to accept that the government pretends to maintain the well-being of its citizens by prohibiting drugs, for it is widely known that substances such as cigarettes and alcohol pose a much higher risk factor to the consumer, resulting in cancer, addiction, liver problems, as well as other predicaments." When I read this it struck me as being very biased, simply saying 'this is hypocritical'. Would anyone else agree?

Also, "Tolerating soft drugs also leads to a more cohesive society, where everyone is represented, even those who decide to use drugs as a recreational item, just like Heineken, a pseudo-symbol of national pride, is widely consumed and exported around the EU and the world." Very, very POV.--205.196.147.137 00:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

As of now, it still hasn't improved (or maybe it has been, but it's been reverted). I'm against prohibition, btw. 84.53.74.196 10:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] history

the article says, "in Northern Europe, the Protestants were also guilty of passing drug laws motivated by religious intolerance, according to Stephen Harrod Buhner (Ref 2). Buhner argues that the 1516 Reinheitsgebot, which stipulates that beer may only contain water, malt and hops was a "reflection of Protestant irritation about 'drugs' and the Catholic Church". Unlike the typically stimulating herbal blends widely used at the time (e.g. gruit), hops cause sedation and reduce libido. The exclusive use of hops had been compulsory in France since 1268 (Ref 3)."

However, according to the Reinheitsgebot page, it originated in Bavaria- a predominatly catholic region. Additionally, the line about "guilty of passing drug laws motivated..." is a bit...strong, don't you think? The article on the Renheitsgebot pretty much disagrees with this passage entirely. Novium 01:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

On the last line it describes the German decriminalization of soft drugs as "hope". This is not a neutral viewpoint and should probably be edited.

[edit] Basic References that weren't included/referenced

Major Studies of Drugs and Drug Policy http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/studies.htm -- the full text of most of the major government commission studies on drug prohibition from around the world for the last 100+ years.

Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs - http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm -- This contains an excellent history of how drug prohibition arose.

The short history of the drug laws by the professor who wrote the original history of the marijuana laws for President Nixon's US National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse - http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm

Also see The Forbidden Fruit and the Tree of Knowledge - the legal history of the marijuana laws at http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/vlr/vlrtoc.htm

The Drug Hang-Up by Rufus King -- http://www.druglibrary.org/special/king/dhu/dhumenu.htm Another excellent history of how prohibition arose.

These are some of the best works ever written on the subject. The article is incomplete without them.

[edit] Globalise

Particularly the history section is excessively US biassed. I have added a globalise tag to that section.--Golden Wattle ^talk 20:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PROHIBITION

[edit] Version 0.7

This article is close, but a controversial topic like this needs very careful inline citations to carry weight. I think someone knowledgable could clean this up easily and make it a B - if so, please renominate. A nomination alongside some related articles - to give context - would also help. Thanks, Walkerma 06:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legalization of drugs

"Legalization of drugs" redirects here. I think it would be better to separate legalization of drugs into a separate article; redirecting legalization to drug prohibition is like redirecting black to white. They are opposites.--Gloriamarie 09:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree. There is alot to be said on that topic, medical, political, sociological, et cetera. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earliest prohibition, and citations

The article on opium says: (references scrubbed)

From the earliest finds opium has appeared to have ritual significance, and anthropologists have speculated that ancient priests may have used the drug as a proof of healing power. In Egypt, the use of opium was generally restricted to priests, magicians, and warriors, its invention credited to Thoth, and it was said to have been given by Isis to Ra as treatment for a headache. A figure of the Minoan "goddess of the narcotics", wearing a crown of three opium poppies, ca. 1300 B.C., was recovered from the Sanctuary of Gazi, Crete, together with a simple smoking apparatus. The Greek gods Hypnos (Sleep), Nyx (Night), and Thanatos (Death) were depicted wreathed in poppies or holding poppies. Poppies also frequently adorned statues of Apollo, Asklepios, Pluto, Demeter, Aphrodite, Kybele and Isis, symbolizing nocturnal oblivion.

This seems to indicate that there were probably earlier drug prohibitions than the Islamic ones mentioned in this article. Can anyone dig up any further detail and provide citation?

Also, the article as a whole is now in better shape than before, but it's still sorely lacking in references, and that is an urgent need for this and related articled (Illegal drug trade, Drug liberalization, etc.). --Daniel11 15:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)²

[edit] Missing sources

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but this isn't an encyclopedic article. While I agree with the author's (or authors') thesis -- that drug laws were used for political gain by religious leaders in antiquity, and for political gain in xenophobic regions in the United States. Sentences such as "This was followed by the Harrison Act, passed in 1914, which required sellers of opiates and cocaine to get a license (which were usually only distributed to white people). " would be far more interesting if there was a study showing that this was the case -- to me, it just looks like parenthetical commentary. All claims here should be backed by an independent source; I for one wouldn't feel comfortable making any claims based on this article, save the few that are actually sourced.

In a broader, unrelated-to-POV sense, statements like "cocaine was banned in the 20th century" should probably be more specific...for example, the date of first federal law criminalizing cocaine in particular would be a satisfactory milestone at least for this reader.

Thanks for bothering to put together a great (while not encyclopedic) article.

71.97.134.4 (talk) 05:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

This article should be renamed to "Drug policy", since prohibition is only one aspect of fighting drug addiction, and it doesn't cover other equally important aspects, such as prevention, treatment, and information campaigns. Cambrasa (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)