Talk:Principality of Pindus and Voivodship of Macedonia

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Sorry I can't remove the following [[Category:History of Greece|Pindus] from the External links. Please help. Thanks. --Koppany 04:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Matoussi 2 Imported from old talk page 3 Greek article 4 PRINCIPALITY OF PINDUS 5 Title misleading like a main article of Byzantine Empire and Despotate of Epirus 6 3 Points 7 Copy-and-paste move fixed 8 Proposed move

[edit] Matoussi

"Φιλόδοξα οράματα που ο Ματούσης θα πληρώσει με εικοσαετή κάθειρξη στις φυλακές του Τσαουσέσκου." If I understand well this means that Matoussi was sentenced for 20 years in Ceausescu's Romania? → Η άλλη Ξένη Thanks. --Koppany 11:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imported from old talk page

From previous Talk:Principality of Pindus:

Discussion about this "state" can be found on [1]. It seems to have longer history, quote: Italy actually created the Principality of Pindos in 1917 first after they took control of Epirus. Pavel Vozenilek 23:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek article

Could somebody expand the article by translating it from Greek wikipedia? Luka Jačov 23:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PRINCIPALITY OF PINDUS

Here is the original start 22 August 2006 and the already removed and not archived Talk Talk:Principality of Pindus Balkanfreezer (talk) 18:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hugh Poulton and  Mark Mazower speak just about Principality of Pindus

Does Wikipedia support neologisms and invented SECONDARY Titles? Balkanfreezer (talk) 18:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Koppany  also removed the already Category:Principality of Pindus with newly (by him) created Category:Voivodship of Macedonia!!...

Balkanfreezer (talk) 18:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

However in the irrelevant Ohrana external link there is no mention of ANY Voivodhip or Principality of Pindus!.. Balkanfreezer (talk) 18:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

QUOTE In Sept. 1941 the commander of the Pinerolo Division, Gen. Cesare Benelli, proposed the creation of Aromanian militias in Grevenà, Kastoria, Kalabaka, Trikkala, Karditsa; moreover he proposed to support the Aromanians and give to them the gendarmery and some administrative places, along with a few Bulgarians from Macedonia. This plan wasn't approved by the commander of the III Army Corps, and meanwhile also Gen. Benelli had become less enthusiast of the Aromanian collaboration, given that they weren't compactly pro-Italian, many were mere oportuninsts, and had great political differences also between themselves.

QUOTE Julius Csesznegi: his correct Hungarian name was Baron Julius Milványi-Csesznegi (Báró Milványi Csesznegi Gyula). He was really an adventurer and also a not too known poet and writer.

Julius was proclaimed prince regent of Pindus and abdicated in 1944. He never had any power or even set foot on the territory of the state.

Julius' mother, Maria Handzár was from Vlach origin.

http://forum.axishistory.com

Balkanfreezer (talk) 18:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, it is very hard to follow what it is you want from the above. Could you please try to clearly and briefly describe the problem for somewhat who is absolutely clueless and has no knowledge of the background (i.e. me)? henrik•talk 18:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Balkanfreezer, please stop your vandalism and violating the rules of Wikpedia. The title of the article, so far as I know, reflects the Italian attempt to create a local structure that would support them against Greek guerillas. First they used for this purpose the Aromanians, later Macedonians. Maybe these two attempts could have different articles, but it seems to be not easy. Anyway I can not support any unilateral remove of information. --Koppany (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

All we know about Aromanians and Principality of Pindus is well documented On the contrary the Slavic(and Bulgarian) Macedonian issue belongs to Uhrana NOT here Balkanfreezer (talk) 19:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

You can give whatever informations are needed about Albanians and other Groups inside the article

but these groups have no right to hijack the original title which is PRINCIPALITY OF PINDUS Balkanfreezer (talk) 19:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Why the external link of Uhrana speaks of NO relation to Principality of Pindus?? Italians supported also the Albanians. Should Albania take place in the title of Pindus? and how you define Maceedonia Geographicaly,Slavic,Bulgarian what? Why not Moglena also?? Moglena title was of the same value, as Voivodship of Macedonia ...JUST TITLES at the last years!! The reference of Macedonia in the title is disputed It belongs inside the article,in a subcategory Balkanfreezer (talk) 19:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

QUOTES FROM THE ARTICLE

In 1942 a faction of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (VMRO) offered the throne of Macedonia to Alchiviad

Where is the source.. Names?? The Bulgarophile VMORO offered Macedonia to Aromanian control???

Why Ivan Mihailov is linked to Principality of Pindus,since he set no foot in the region and refused to participate in an autonomous Axis-Macedonia,(although he supported Ante Pavelic in Croatia)??

According to a source from the old pre-communist Bulgarian National Security Service, this change was due to the decisive intervention of the VMRO-agent Ivan Mihailov through Ante Pavelić in Rome in early 1943.[1] Go and see the PDF

BUT THE LINK SAYS NOTHING ABOUT VOIVODSHIP OR PINDUS!!! Balkanfreezer (talk) 19:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Cseszneky was a Hungarian-Croatian baron[5]http://ferenczygen.tripod.com/id6.html

The link lists generally Hungarian Barons and gives no information about this mysterious Voivode.. Balkanfreezer (talk) 19:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

and the farce of link-sources goes on!... [2] [3]

who only nominally reigned as Voivode Julius[6] between August-September in 1943, but never actually assumed power, although some local autonomist Slavic Macedonian Uhrana leaders governed in his name

Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I can accept a subtitle to deal with the Macedonian issue, but it is almost impossible to detach it from the Pindus story. The territories ruled or at least claimed by the Principality and those ruled or claimed by pro-Italian Macedonians were the same. It seems that about 1942-43 Italy disappointed with Aromanians started to favorize Macedonians (and even formed a commitee with Bulgarians) but in the same territory and based on the same structures.--Koppany (talk) 20:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title misleading like a main article of Byzantine Empire and Despotate of Epirus

and the Despotate of Epirus EXISTED (not only as a title) but this so called Voivodship of Macedonia is disputed Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Why the links about Uhrana and Italo-Bulgarski Komitet - Svoboda. ili Smrt speak of NO relation to Pindus and Alchibiadi?? [4]

Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There are Makedonskis participating in Bulgarophile Uhrana

and later Makedonski Tito-Communists SNOF

What are the sources about Makedonskis directly and independently related to Italians???

Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The Macedonians were supported by the Italians and their uniforms were supplied by the Italians. --Koppany (talk) 20:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The armed men of Ohrana weared hats with the sign "IBK-SIS-Cheta ofTirana" -(Italo-Bulgarian Committee "Liberty or Death" - Cheta of Tirana).In Kostur has been created Ohrana commandment - it has been placed inthebuilding of the former Greek police. The movement between all villagescontrolled by Ohrana could be possible only by written permission ofporuchik A. Kalchev or with a pass from the Bulgarian club in Solun.The Bulgarian government took firstly very reserved position towardsOhrana.So in a telegram of the Bulgarian Prime Minister Bogdan Filov to theBulgarian legation in Rome is written: "Because the Italian commandmentin Kostur cannot manage with the attacks of the Greek andarts, itpermittedthe local population to be armed, without informing the Bulgariangovernment.[5] --Koppany (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The Italo-Bulgarian relation is already known

from the article Another important figure in the history of the state was the Albanian Vasil Rapotika (Vasilis Rapoutikas).[2] According to V. Papagianni, he was Minister of Defence in the autonomous government since its creation

Maybe this is the only Non-Aromanian,Non-Italian who participated actively in this Principality Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not only about Italo-Bulgarian relation, but these soldiers were Macedonians. Kostur (Greek Kastoria) was part of Pindus Principality and so on...--Koppany (talk) 20:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

and so on ..the fact that they were both Italian (and some time German collaborators) does not prove a DUAL STATE as the title implies Balkanfreezer (talk) 06:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

1.where is the source that Kastoria/Kostur was capital of Principality?

2.The artilce Alchiviad Diamandi di Samarina gives much more information about the AROMANIAN Principality than the article here Balkanfreezer (talk) 06:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There and in the above axis forum Cseszneky was a Hungarian-VLACH but here he became Hungarian-Croat!!

There in the older article of Alchiviad

some AROMANIANS governed in his name

and here it was changed to .....some local autonomist Slavic Macedonian Uhrana leaders governed in his name!!!

Balkanfreezer (talk) 07:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

and one can assume that the movement of the Hungarian prince had a MACEDO-ROMAN and NOT a Slavic Macedonian character ...Who can prove what here?... Balkanfreezer (talk) 07:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3 Points

• 1.Title -> Principality of Pindus
• 2.Subcategories Principality of Moglena , Voivodship of Macedonia
• 3.RELIABLE SOURCES INSIDE THE PHRASE

Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

and what is the source about the FLAG??

I can accept the title Principality of Pindus and such subcategories if you insist.--Koppany (talk) 20:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The flag description was found in a site of the Professor Bruno D'Ambrosio. --Koppany (talk) 20:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is this site?

btw Autonomous state of Pindus is much more constructive than Moglena,Voivodship or Macedonia etc Balkanfreezer (talk) 20:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Mozower speaks about autonomous mini-state [6]

Balkanfreezer (talk) 21:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I am quite happy for it to be Principality of Pindus/Autonomous State of Pindus and have subcategories but we need to move the page PROPERLY. Balkanfreezer, copy-paste moves delete the history of the page which is actually quite important. After four days, you will be able to move a page properly... so just wait, or either me or Koppany will move the page when this discussion is over. BalkanFever 02:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is the talk for the moves here? [7] [8]

and the sources..don't you see that it lacks neutral sources ...ENGLISH or (AXIS DOCUMENTS:ITALIAN and GERMAN)sources Not Greek,Bulgarian,Hungarian etc balkan

I thought unsourced statements can be easily deleted Balkanfreezer (talk) 06:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you replying to me or....? BalkanFever 13:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copy-and-paste move fixed

This article was copy-and-paste moved and redirected several times on 26 December 2007 and 31 January 2008 by User:Balkanfreezer, from the present Principality of Pindus and Voivodship of Macedonia back to its older title Principality of Pindus. I have fixed this by history-merging all content edits made while the material was at Principality of Pindus back into the history here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, then, let's do it properly:

[edit] Proposed move

Principality of Pindus and Voivodship of Macedonia -> Principality of Pindus

It's been proposed that this page be moved back to Principality of Pindus. Please make a note here if there are any remaining objections to this. I'll carry out the move in a few days if this is consensus. It needs admin tools to do it properly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)