Talk:Principality of Catalonia

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[edit] Never been a principality

Catalonia had existed and never had been and principality

This is not true. Pls. read the Courts of Barcelona, from 1454, http://www.mcu.es/archivos/lhe/Consultas/imagen.jsp?cod=024261 settling the festivity og Saint George at the Principat, with capital letter, (Catalan for Principality).--Paco ✉ 21:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


In any case, this is not the point:
  • It is known historically as the Principat (principality)
  • Here, principality derives from the Latin "princeps" (plural: principes) means "the first". This refers to its political and economic importance under the Aragonese crown.
--YuriBCN 12:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catalunya a nation

Catalan Nacionalism is not the only ideology which considers Catalonia as a Nation. If we have a view on the political parties of Catalonia, we will notice that only 2 of the majority parties (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya and Convergència i Unió) are nacionalists and the other 3 parties (Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya, Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds - Esquerra Unida i Alternativa and Partido Popular) are not nacionalists but they regard Catalonia as a nation with the exception of Partido Popular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.37.151.198 (talk • contribs) 25 July 2006.

[edit] Princes/counts

I'm a bit confused here. We have no article County of Barcelona (that's just a redirect to List of Counts of Barcelona). This article barely mentions the title of Count of Barcelona. But that is the title I've always been familiar with for the medieval rulers of this region (and it is a title still retained by the Spanish Crown). I've never heard of a "Prince of Catalonia". This article is a bit undercited, so it's hard to follow up; at a quick read the linked Spanish language article (originally from La Vanguardia) seems a bit ambivalent about whether the designation is appropriate. - Jmabel | Talk 18:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

There are several types of principalities. We describe Catalonia as a Principality because it is a land whose sovereign hasn't got an specific title or he is a sovereign and governs using another title. The Principality of Catalonia was governed by the kings of Crown of Aragon whose kings had the title of Count of Barcelona. Nowadays, the King of Spain has this title. So, there is not any contradiction, althought this king has not any power over the Spanish's Politic,he is the head of state so he governs Catalonia but he doesn't do it with the title of Count of Barcelona, he does it using the title of king of Spain. (Sorry for my English, I hope you will understand) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5 August 2006 (talk • contribs) 83.44.115.42.

Actually, I'm not sure I understand. Quizás sería más fácil explicarme en castellano, yo lo leo bastante bién.
So are we saying that Catalonia only becomes a "principality" at the time of the marriage of Ramon Berenguer IV with Petronila of Aragón (at which time it became part of the Crown of Aragon)? If so, doesn't that belong in the lead of the article? (Prior to that, the Counts of Barcelona are simply sovereign (or, perhaps, having a rather unenforceable vassalship to the king of France). - Jmabel | Talk 04:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Ramon Berenguer IV oficially became Prince of Aragon and Count of Barcelona after the marriage, where Prince has a meaning similar to dominator. Catalonians would later sometimes call Catalonia a principality, in spite of not being oficially one. --193.144.12.130 15:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What an incredibly biased entry

This has barely even semblance of being neutral. "Limited political" autonomy? According to whom? A map that illustrates the region as being separate from the rest of the Spanish state? Eboracum 05:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There was no Spanish state in the relevant period. The problem with the map is that it shows "Spain" rather than "Aragon" and "Valencia". - Jmabel | Talk 19:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, there could be a sharper line between present-day Spain and present-day France, making it clear that historic Catalonia spans this border. - Jmabel | Talk 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I've now re-colored the map; hope that meets at lest most of your concerns. Also, the article refers to "limited political sovereignty" not "limited political autonomy". I would say that is correct. What is your problem with it? - Jmabel | Talk 20:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ramon Muntaner's chronicles

"There seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles". I am the author of this sentence originally written in ca.wiki and then translated into several wikis. Any reference can be found in the chronicles of Muntaner and it was probably a misunderstood of mine from the source I used. I removed it in ca.wiki and I substituted it for more reliable quotations. What needs really a citation is to place the origin of the name in the union of the county of Barcelona with the kingdom of Aragon. Medieval Latin princeps does not means prince consort, but dominator. --Vriullop 17:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes added

  • the article now explains the use of the term principality
  • the lead now only explains the Principality as the AC is described in a different article
  • the lead does not use POVish terms as " Southern or Spanish Catalonia" which are clearly not encyclopedic.
  • the lead does not explain political facts of the AC anymore
  • added sources
  • added some images
  • changed the catalan countries template for the new one instored by Xtv

--Maurice27 22:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Despite we seem to disagree in all I completely agree with the third,fifth sixth and seventh points. About the others I'm tired of discussing today with you so let's see what say the usual editors of this article. The only point where I clearly disagree is: is an historic territory situated in the north-east of Spain which corresponds to the present-day Autonomous Community of Catalonia., can you explain why you changed it? --GillesV 22:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not change it, I kept it! from the former lead paragraph. (see [1]).
the first point is sourced and with parts from the older section. I don't know why you should be in disagreement.
The second point is how I believe it must be. All the info. about the AC is in the other article.
The fourth point is how I believe it must be. All the info. about the AC is in the other article.
I'm glad you agree with the rest.

I'm going to bed. GNight. Cheers, --Maurice27 22:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep,like it is now (despite I have not read the whole article) from my POV there is no problem, no personal alarms ringing ;) Cheers.--GillesV 23:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Have added an 's' to Middle Age (Middle Ages), as middle age is the period of life beyond young adulthood but before the onset of old age, and the historical period is always plural. --YuriBCN 13:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)