Talk:Princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

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What are the facts concerning Princess Sibylla's old 60'ies Cadillac? The sightings and people claming to have ridden, owned or purchased this fabulous automobile are as common as those who have spotted Elvis.

This fact, in itself, is part of contemporary Swedish popular culture and worthwile documenting for later generations to come.

I, myself, have ridden the Cadillac, black convertible, which alledgedly was "Princess' Sibyllas" old Caddy...this was some 31 years ago.

What happened to this car? Did it ever exist, or is it an urban legend?

[edit] Title

Would Sibylla have been known as Princess Sibylla of Sweden, Duchess of Vasterbotten or Princess Sibylla, Duchess of Vasterbotten as her husband was Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Vasterbotten? In Princess Lilian, Duchess of Halland's case, she is known by her husband's ducal title. Prsgoddess187 16:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Lilian is still alive, Sibylla is dead, if you are talkign about a possible title change. As for how she normally was referred to, I do not know. Charles 18:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I was just wondering how she was referred to after her husband's death, but prior to her own. Just one of those little tidbits of info I find interesting. No title change, as this is the proper place for her, but maybe more detailed info in the titles section of her page. Prsgoddess187 20:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to remember that actually, the best-known title for her has been "Arvfurstinna". It is a Swedish tradition that if a crown prince has already a heir himself, that heir has the specific title "Arvfurste". We know that usage certainly from the time of Oscar Bernadotte becoming Arvfurste of Sweden when his father was adopted by the elderly Charles XIII of Sweden in c 1810. We have some indications that already Gustav III, when born, was known as Arvfurste, as his father Adolf Frederick was crown prince, and king Frederick yet reigned.
(In cases of kings or crown princes having no sons and it being obvious that there will never be, the next brother also had been known as Arvfurste. And in some similar situations. Christina I declared his first cousin, the future Charles X Gustav as Sweden's Arvfurste, though he technically was just heir-presumptive. The future Oscar II became known as the Arvfurste during his soneless brother's Charles XV's reign.)
Other arvfurstar: The future Charles XV himself, as heir-apparent of the crown prince during grandfather's reign, was known as Arvfurste besides being Duke of Skane. The future Gustav VI Adolf, as heir-apparent of the crown prince during grandfather's reign, was known as Arvfurste besides being Duke of Skane. Sibylla's husband Gustav Adolf, Duke of Westrobothnia, was his entire life known as Arvfurste, as his entire life took place during his great-grandfather's and grandfather's reigns, and he was always heir-apparent. Except his first year of life, Oscar II's reign, he was known as The Arvfurste, as his own father then was crown prince. The future Charles XVI Gustav, Sibylla's son, as heir-apparent of the crown prince during great-grandfather's reign, was known 1947-51 as Arvfurste besides being Duke of Jemtlandia.)
Sibylla's married life took place entirely during Gustav V's reign, so she was all that time The Arvfurstinna, and The duchess of Westrobothnia. When she widowed, her titulary "froze" - she was never awarded any title of crown-princess or queen-mother, though such could have been possible by a special grant. Normal widow usage is that she was "Änkearvfurstinna Sibylla" throughout the rest of her life. It's "Dowager Hereditary Princess". Of course she was also "Dowager Duchess of Westrobothnia". So, I believe that her used title during the widowhood was never "Princess Sibylla of Sweden" or "Princess Sibylla, whatever". Rather, it was a combination between two very individual titles: "Sveriges änkearvfurstinna" and "Änkehertiginna av Västerbotten", or those ytwo titles used alternatively, often depending on context. For example, when visiting North or having something to do for or with or on behalf of Västerbotten, she certaibly was calles as its Dowager Duchess. Also, quite regularly, if the context needed a hint that she is Charles Gustav's mother, quite often (but not always) she was put then as "Änkearvfurstinna" when CG was young "Sveriges arvfurst" and then from 1951 onwards, the young "Sveriges kronprins". Suedois 16:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Best known in Swedish, maybe. I have seldomly heard her called Hereditary Princess of Sweden in English. Charles 17:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Frustrating. Your mind might be one-track. As far as I see, only you said anything about moving this article. We are not discussing about how she was known in English. Prsgoddess asked how she was styled/ titled when widow. Of course that means in Sweden, mostly, where her titles originated. So, why are you disrupting the information by sniding about how she seldomly was called in English? There are persons here who go around and contribute nothing substantial nor informative - they seem only to revert and move. Do you know anything factual how she was even styled in English publications when widow? Really factual. Like, verbatim examples of real use. That would be a contribution to the discussion. Kindly provide them, as you decided to took upon that aspect. Suedois 18:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to be rude. This is English Wikipedia and Prsgoddess was referencing English usage and asking if there were variations. I have an informal education in royal history... My experience is largely what I have absorbed from noted authors, publications, etc. I mostly see the Princess referenced without the title of Hereditary Princess. Not substantial to you, perhaps, but I don't really care to help those who can't help themselves and insult others. I hope that Prsgoddess finds help in what little I have been able to offer. I see you have provided nothing to substantiate English usage. Don't ask me to do what you are unable to do. Charles 22:01, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, where do you see that Prsgoddess is referencing English usage here. No English-speaking country was behind Sibylla's those titles she asked about ("Princess Sibylla of Sweden, Duchess of Västerbotten"). And what comes to your explanation about your informal education, that of course is useful to know. Your remark "I see you have provided nothing to substantiate English usage" of course is an insult,were I care for such things. Suedois 22:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The obituaries in The Times (of London), the New York Times, and the Globe and Mail all call her "Princess Sibylla of Sweden". Noel S McFerran 22:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical naming

Just to show the results of usual naming using the practice prevalent in respectable works of reference: Editors of otherlanguage-wikipedias have not fiddled any honorific to prefix her name, she is there: de:Sibylla von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, sv:Sibylla av Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha. And we know that it is so in English usage too. I find it reprehensible that some people go arounf prefixing titles to deceased women against the usage in works of reference. ObRoy 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] genealogical relation between Sibylla and St.Bridget of Sweden

Birgitta Birgersdotter of Finsta, wife of Lord of Ulvåsa; better known as Saint Bridget of Sweden - sister: Katarina Birgersdotter of Finsta - Katarina's daughter: Ingeborg Magnusdotter, countess of Orkney (1327-90) - daughter from 1st marriage: Kristina Bengtsdotter Bielke - daughter: Sofia Gerhardsdotter Snakenborg - daughter: Kristina Knutsdotter of Aspenäs - son: Arvid Birgersson Trolle married secondly Beate Iversdotter Thott of Lilloe and principality of Gotland - daughter: Margrethe Arvidsdatter Trolle of Lilloe - daughter: Lisbet Jensdatter Ulfstand - daughter: Sofie Clausdatter Bille - son: Claus Maltesen Sehested af Holmgaard - son: Malte Sehested af Rydhave - daughter: Birgitte Sofie Sehested - son: admiral Ulrik Kaas - son: admiral Frederik Christian Kaas af Nedergaard - daughter: Johanne Henriette Valentine Kaas married Christian Conrad, Count of Samsoe - daughter: countess Louise Sofie Danneskiold-Samsoe married Christian, Duke of Augustenborg - son: Frederick VIII, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein - daughter: Caroline Mathilde of Schleswig-Holstein married Frederik Ferdinand, Duke of Gluecksburg and of Schleswig-Holstein - daughter: Victoria Adelaide of Schleswig-Holstein - daughter: Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha married Gustav Adolf, Duke of Westrobothnia - son: Charles XVI Gustav, current King of Sweden.

some source: [1] Suedois 08:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)