Talk:Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark (born 1971)

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Contents 1 Greece and Denmark 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.2 Discussion

[edit] Greece and Denmark

When did she become a Princess of Denmark this article says she was denied the suffix "and Denmark" and style HRH. - dwc lr (talk) 03:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

She apparently always was a Princess of Denmark. No source was ever presented as to why the Princess would ever be denied the Danish title or even the style of Royal Highness. The September 2003 issue of Vanity Fair, for which the princess' father wrote an intro to their section on royals and also for which the princess was photographed on June 2, 2003 (it is sitting right in front of me) gives her title as Her Royal Highness Princess Olga Isabelle of Greece and Denmark. Her sister, also photographed, is similarly styled. Charles 03:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Were they both in the magazine? I seem to remember only Olga, because she had that huge butterfly clip thing on. Was Alexandra in the magazine too? I don't know where my copy is (which is a shame, I loved looking at it) or I'd check for myself. Morhange (talk) 05:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Both Olga and Alexandra are in the magazine and both are titled as princesses of Greece and of Denmark and both are styled Royal Highness. Charles 06:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Then perhaps Vanity Fair should have checked with the head of the dynasty, King Constantine II, rather than with the girl's father: HRH the late Duke of Windsor consistently asserted that his wife's title was "HRH the Duchess of Windsor", but King George VI was Britain's Fount of honour. Daniel Willis, whose book The Descendants of King George XIII is the source of this factoid, is known in royal genealogical circles for verifying information directly with dynasty members and Heads of Houses, rather than merely regurgitating what older published sources say. Since he carefully notes that the daughters do not share their father's HRH or "and Denmark" (page 94), and then goes out of his way to explain the difference (see endnote #24 to Chapter 1 on page 762), it is less likely to be in error than Vanity Fair, whose editors may know a lot about courtesy to doting dads, but nothing about royal titulature and the consequences of morganatic marriage. FactStraight (talk) 09:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Published author Marlene Koenig asserts that the daughters of Prince Michael are Royal Highnesses and Princesses of Greece and of Denmark. There are no set rules for morganatic marriage in Greece and nothing in Greece would allow for the removal of the Danish title. Perhaps the princesses are not dynasts but they do appear to be princesses and Royal Highnesses. Remember, it was announced before the Prince Michael's wife would be known as "the consort of Prince Michael of Greece", however now in the listing of prominent members of the Greek Royal Family they are known as Prince and Princess Michael. Things have changed, apparently. Charles 16:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Koenig's comment was posted on a newsgroup in 1997, whereas Daniel Willis's book was published in 1999 -- and Willis cites Koenig's book Queen Victoria's Descendants (which, however, does not mention Prince Michael or his daughters) and Koenig herself as sources. It's undisputed that although Marina Karella was not recognized as a princess when she wed Michael in Athens in 1965, her status and that of her daughters were upgraded: all sources now accord Marina the title of Princess and HRH. But the same genealogical sources continue to list the marriage as in violation of dynastic standards, the consequences of which are up to the Greek and Danish monarchs. Willis documents the continued distinction between the father's style and that of his daughters. So does L'Allemagne Dynastique volume VII, on the Oldenburgs: page 329, Michael's title is "Prince of Greece and Denmark", but page 357 records his daughters as "(Princesses) of Greece". Yet page 355 shows that Alexandra, the morganatic daughter of Alexander I of the Hellenes, was allowed the full title "Princess of Greece and Denmark"; so these distinctions are coming from kingly decisions & can't be dismissed as carelessness. Willis also confirms the distinction on page 419 of his 2002 genealogical book, The Descendants of King George I of Great Britain. You yourself cited Willis on a newsgroup to revert an edit last month. FactStraight (talk) 02:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, however, there are two lines of information going on here. One touting something as it was and another stating how things have changed. For all we know Mr. Willis wasn't aware of an upgrade. I am not discounting him as a source completely but the princesses have been styled as Royal Highnesses and as Princesses of Denmark (a status I haven't seen a source denying her specifically). I do know that Marina was formerly known as Marina, Consort of Prince Michael and that she is now HRH Princess Marina but Marlene Koenig, who has contact with the King, has said that the princesses are HRH and of Greece and of Denmark, another apparent change. Has Mr. Willis substantiated why the princesses are not of Denmark with decrees or other sources? Charles 02:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The sources aren't simultaneous, but sequential. Koenig's casual comment in a newsgroup can't outweigh two published royal geneaological books, with bibliographies and reputations for accuracy in royal genealogy. Wiki's standard doesn't require that the authors of books document each datum therein individually. Nor was Koenig's contact with the Greek royal family cited in the newsgroup as the source of her info in 1997.FactStraight (talk) 02:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Charles, what is the evidence she is a Princess of Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Male-line descent from a King of Denmark and a lack of sources explicitly denying her the title "Princess of Denmark". Omission does not equal denial. Charles 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Violation of WP:OR. The sources clearly state her title is Princess of Greece. This is clearly sourced you see the Willis book for yourself online. In L'Allemagne Dynastique her title is just Pss of Greece while her father is given Greece & Denmark as noted by FactStraight. - dwc lr (talk) 19:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Other than WP:OR and a newsgroup posting what half decent source is their that she is a Pss of Denmark when there are two genealogical works cited which say her title is merely Pss of Greece, or should we not concern ourselves with published sources. - dwc lr (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Omission of a title in a published work does not mean that the title is not held. Sources have not been provided which explicitly deny the Danish title to the Princesses Olga and Alexandra and as male-line descendants of Christian IX of Denmark, as with all Greek royals, they hold the title "Princess of Denmark". The 1953 Act of Succession in Denmark created two classes of princes and princesses, those who were dynasts and those who are not. Olga and Alexandra are the latter because it allowed for princes and princesses to keep their titles and transmit them in the male-line as had always been done. Charles 22:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Again WP:OR. These published works clear as day give her title, Pss of Greece what published works can you provide that say something else. - dwc lr (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I must agree that this appears to be WP:OR. The 1953 Act states nothing about princely titles. Nor does it account for the various post-1953 counts af Rosenborg whose existence shows it's possible for the issue of Danish princes to be denied the princely title and Highness due to unapproved marriage. Moreover, titles are recorded affirmatively, explaining who has such-and-such title: Dynastic/genealogical publications aren't going to write "Princess Olga of Greece but not of Denmark", no matter how accurate that may be. Nor does any work I've ever heard of document the degree to which the Danish monarch was consulted about the marriages of Greek dynasts. Demanding such "proofs" is a red herring, since even the most reputable sources rarely document data so precisely. The most recent, reputable source that reports a person's specific titulature must surely prevail until contradicted by an equally reputable, equally specific source. So far, no such cite has been given.FactStraight (talk) 06:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move