Talk:Prince of Wales's feathers

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Shouldn't the article's title be Prince of Wales' feathers? I'm ESL, but I'm pretty sure in situations such as this the second s is dropped.--Caranorn 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

See Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending in s, z, or x — Matt Eason (Talk • Contribs) 13:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I have just read through this article and noticed that the following sentence unnecessarily uses the word "been" twice. "The badge has been traditionally been worn on the jerseys of players in the Welsh rugby union team and as the logo of the Welsh Rugby Union". This article doesn’t allow me to edit it personally so I thought I would mention something here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.sutton88 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea why you weren't allowed to click "edit this page". I've addressed it now, anyway. -- Jao (talk) 15:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Wru logo.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prince of Wales feathers, naming, citations

A contributor says they should be called the Duke or Cornwall's feathers but without citation of any kind. The Prince of Wales official website states that these are the "The Prince of Wales's Feathers" and refers to the feathers as the "badge of The Prince of Wales". That seems pretty clear cut. I'll amend, do provide a citation showing the badge to be named for the Duke of Cornwall and we can add that as an option - regardless this is clearly [also?] used for the Prince of Wales. Note that some military sites mention a white rose, for example the "award of the White Rose of York, the personal emblem of the Duke of Cornwall and York" and others the "Duke of Cornwalls coronet". The page on the Prince's coat of arms unifies the relationship of the various badges and emblems and mentions the coronet as an emblem of 'Cornwall. Pbhj (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

This article and this Dicussion-page are all wrong. This article should be titled "Heir Apparent's Feathers". This page is contradicted by other Wikipedia pages. The Ostrich Feathers are not a badge of PrinceS of Wales (in general). They are not a badge of DukeS of Cornwall (in general) either. They are a badge of HeirS Apparent to the Throne (in general). If the Feathers were a badge not only of the present Prince of Wales but uniquely of men who WERE PrinceS of Wales in the past, then the Feathers would not have belonged to Prince Charles before his creation as Prince of Wales in 1958. But that is not true -- the Feathers belonged to him in 1952, from the moment Elizabeth II became Queen, when he, Prince Charles, became Heir Apparent.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_wales

where it says

QUOTE:

He has a badge of three ostrich feathers

UNQUOTE

and

QUOTE

it dates back to the Black Prince and is his as the English heir even before he is made Prince of Wales.

UNQUOTE

If the Feathers are a badge of a man who is not Prince of Wales (as was the case before Prince Charles's 1958 creation) then obviously they can't be the badge of PrinceS of Wales (in general) just because later on the same man has both the Feathers and the title of "Prince of Wales". It's wrong to say that Emblem A symbolizing Title B also symbolizes Title C just because one man at one time holds both Title B and Title C. The text at

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/theprinceofwalessfeathers/

says "The badge of The Prince of Wales comprises" which is LOOSELY true in that RIGHT NOW this is a badge that is used by a man (Prince Charles) who is Prince of Wales. But it's wrong to use that loose language to assert that the Feathers are LINKED to the title "Prince of Wales". They're not linked.

Symbols of PrinceS of Wales (in general) are (more-or-less) symbols of EarlS of Chester (in general) because any Prince of Wales MUST be Earl of Chester and any Earl of Chester MUST be Prince of Wales. But while the titles "Prince of Wales" and "Earl of Chester" DO have this equivalence, the titles "Prince of Wales", "Duke of Cornwall", and "Heir Apparent to the Crown" do NOT. A man can be Heir Apparent with no hope of becoming Duke of Cornwall if his father is dead and his grandfather is King. Further, an Heir Apparent might or might not be, whether he is Duke of Cornwall or not, a Prince of Wales or someone who is waiting to be created Prince of Wales.

So the three titles are not linked, and thus emblems of any one of the three titles are not emblems of any other even though all three are emblems of the CURRENT title-holder, Prince Charles.

This Discussion-page repeats the same fallacy by claiming that because multiple Dukes of York have adopted the White Rose of the Yorkist side of the Wars of the Roses (opposing the Red Rose of Lancaster), and because one man was both Duke of York AND Duke of Cornwall at the same time, that, therefore, the White Rose is now a symbol of the Duke of Cornwall. Furthermore, the very language quoted by this Discussion-page is "personal emblem of the Duke of Cornwall and York". "PERSONAL emblem". In other words NOT a symbol of DukeS of Cornwall (in general) nor of the Duchy of Cornwall. Given the White Rose's standing as almost a synonym for the very WORD "York" and its present use by Yorkshire and appearance on buildings and bridges in the CITY of York, it is likely that no Duke OTHER than York would employ it.

(It is not hard to imagine how a man can be both Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York at the same time: a 2nd son of a King, first created Duke of York, and then having his only older brother die without descendants, causing the title "Duke of Cornwall" to pass to the man who is now the oldest SURVIVING son of, and senior lineage off of, the King. Nor is it hard to imagine how the titles would re-separate later on: the man who is Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York later becomes King. Instantly his eldest son becomes Duke of Cornwall. Equally instantly the title "Duke of York" goes defunct by merger with Crown. Later on this man, now a King, re-creates the title "Duke of York" for his OWN 2nd son. All the while the White Rose represents only the Dukedom of York, NEVER the Duchy of Cornwall, notwithstanding that AT ONE TIME one man was both Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York at the same time.)

This Discussion-page also cites

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/coatofarms/

. The coat-of-arms shown on that page is accurate for the CURRENT Prince of Wales but not for all PrinceS of Wales (in general). When the later George III was still only Prince of Wales he did not have any Cornwall components in his arms, since he was never Duke of Cornwall (being the grandson of, but never the son of, a previous Monarch). Even if past PrinceS of Wales who WERE also DukeS of Cornwall COULD include Cornwall components in their arms, I've never seen arms of any who DID include them, and I do not believe the present Prince of Wales/Duke of Cornwall included them until it was decided that his 2nd wife would be known as the Duchess of Cornwall rather than the Princess of Wales. The Cornwall armorial components are not mentioned in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%2C_Prince_of_Wales

so they could be rather new.

The entire page at

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/coatofarms/

should not be accepted as definitive because manifestly the sentence "Around its neck there is also a white label, to distinguish it from that of the Sovereign" belongs not in its own paragraph as they have set it but in the preceding paragraph, since it refers to the Welsh dragon-badge, which, being a ROYAL badge (as the page itself states), can be used undifferenced, today, only by the current Queen, requiring a white label-of-difference when used by her Heir Apparent, Prince Charles.

This Discussion-page states that this same page

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/coatofarms/

"unifies" emblems when in fact it DIFFERENTIATES them, telling us that some of Prince Charles's emblems are possessed in his status as Prince of Wales, others in his status as Duke of Cornwall, at least one element in his status as Knight of the Garter, and others in his status as Heir Apparent to his mother.

Finally the editor above states that this page

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/abouttheprince/coatofarms/

"mentions the coronet as an emblem of 'Cornwall". It does no such thing. It DOES say that the separate shield of Cornwall arms is surmounted by "his" coronet. The word "his" could refer to one of two things: "his" (Prince Charles's) coronet as Heir Apparent (the Royal Crown minus two half-arches), or a coronet for the title of Royal Duke. The image is too small for me to be sure but it appears to be, and most likely WOULD be, Prince Charles's coronet of two half-arches as Heir Apparent. Whichever coronet it is, this coronet is NOT an emblem of Cornwall. Either it is an emblem of all Heirs Apparent (including those who cannot become Duke of Cornwall) or else it is an emblem of all Royal Dukes, for instance the Duke of York. It's wrong to say that the Duchy of Cornwall has its own unique and special coronet, and the page cited has no language stating nor even merely implying that there is such a coronet.64.131.188.104 (talk) 05:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson


[edit] Response to rather long contribution

The above contribution is rather long, so I am going to respond in easy-to-navigate chunks.

[edit] Evidence

The Prince of Wales site states that the emblem is called the "The Prince of Wales's Feathers". You say they are not without citing any evidence other than Prince of Wales. You use two items from that page as "evidence". The first is the the caption on the image of the feathers. That caption does not attempt to argue the feathers belong to the heir apparent instead of the Prince of Wales. Rather it appears to be an inelegant substitution for "Prince of Wales". I'm not sure, but you may be trying to argue that because the feathers did not originally relate to the title, they don't now. That conclusion is faulty. The feathers became associated with the title by repeated use by Princes of Wales.

There was another place where the 'inelegant substitution' of 'Heir Apparent' for '"Prince of Wales"' occurred on that page, in the statement that Diana became Princess of Wales by marrying the Heir Apparent, and yes, I have posted that that she did not become Princess of Wales by marrying an Heir Apparent but, rather, by marrying a Prince of Wales.
I agree that this article should not be renamed "Heir Apparent's Feathers" but maybe a cross-link could be engineered so that people who are searching for the correct term get re-routed to this article. There is substantial popular usage of "The Prince of Wales's Feathers" and a good way for people to learn that the popular usage is wrong (as is often the case in matters heraldic, for instance "crest", "bar sinister") would be to have them read it in this article. But the article should so inform them.
As to showing that the popular usage IS wrong, if you google +"ostrich feathers", +"heir apparent" there is evidence. For instance at http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/tm_headline=-stop-using--my-three-feathers-&method=full&objectid=18695820&siteid=50082-name_page.html a person named Tim Duke who is the Chester Herald at London's Royal College of Arms says that the badge is "strictly" that of the Heir Apparent. The page also has a Lord Chamberlain stating "usually known as the Prince of Wales Feathers"' which implies that the usual usage is incorrect since if the Lord Chamberlain believed the Feathers WERE the Prince of Wales's Feathers then the Lord Chamberlain would refer to them as such without the qualifying language "usually known as" which can only be there to imply "isn't". A Lord Chamberlain and a Chester Herald carry some weight as expert witnesses, no? I've edited this paragraph again to remove straight lifts of copyrighted text.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson64.131.188.104 (talk) 03:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
If all you are looking to do is make a redirect page from "Heir Apparent's Feathers" to this page, I'll do that.
Thank you for the redirect. But (and I'll provide citations below) I'm also looking to have the article here clarify that the Feathers belong not to Prince of Wales but to Heir Apparent (and now I'm finding material stating that the Feathers go to Heir Apparent of ENGLAND, while the badge of UNITED KINGDOM Heir Apparent is different (the red dragon).64.131.188.104 (talk) 03:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Chester

I assume that your discussion of the Earldom of Chester is merely a lead-in to your discussion of Cornwall and York. If not, let me know. Unfortunately, your intention is not always clear.

No, I was not making a paralell of Wales/Chester and Cornwall/York. I wrote about Wales/Chester to contrast those two things with the three things "Prince of Wales", "Duke of Cornwall", and "Heir Apparent". In some ways "the Prince of Wales" and the "Earl of Chester" are different things, and in some ways they are the same thing, but, in contrast, there are no ways in which "Prince of Wales", "Duke of Cornwall", and "Heir Apparent" are the same thing, and it's wrong to confuse any one of the latter three with any one of the other two of the latter three.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Cornwall and York

Your discussion of Cornwall and York is unnecessary. No one suggested that the white rose is an emblem of Cornwall.

The text on this page that states that the White Rose of York is an emblem of Cornwall is this:'I'll amend, do provide a citation showing the badge to be named for the Duke of Cornwall and we can add that as an option - regardless this is clearly [also?] used for the Prince of Wales. Note that some military sites mention a white rose, for example the "award of the White Rose of York, the personal emblem of the Duke of Cornwall and York" and others the "Duke of Cornwalls coronet"'.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
I still think you are misinterpreting the white rose discussion.

[edit] Coat of Arms

No one suggested that the coat of arms was the coat of arms for any other Prince of Wales or that any other PoW used Cornish elements in his arms. I'm not sure what you built this straw man for, but it is clearly a straw man.

The armorial image cited to support the Feathers=Wales positon would not support such position unless the image cited pertained to ALL PrinceS of Wales in general, for if the image pertains to only one man then the Feathers could be born by that one man without their being connected to his being Prince of Wales.* Therefore to cite the image to support that Feathers=Wales is to tacitly assert that the image must pertain to PrinceS of Wales generally. *And in fact it is the case that this man IS bearing these Feathers for reasons having nothing to do with being Prince of Wales. He has them for the completely separate and disconnected reason that he is Heir Apparent.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Incidentally, the Prince's arms were granted when he was a child. Also, the caption under the image at Charles, Prince of Wales explicitly states it is the "shield". The Cornish elements are part of the full achievement, not the shield. The Prince is entitled to supporters in his arms, but you don't see them in the article image. That is because they, too, are not part of the shield.

It is true that Prince Charles had armorial bearings as a child. It is true that his site has bearings today. But these two true statements are insufficient to refute the speculation that the Cornwall components were added more recently only to facilitate his 2nd wife's choice to be known as "Duchess of Cornwall". People's armorial bearings are not fixed for life but change during their lifetime. It could BE true that Prince Charles's armorial bearings have never changed since he first had any at all, but it's not AUTOMATICALLY true.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

The Prince of Wales site page on the coat of arms is not written in paragraph form. All but two sentences are separated that way.

Readers can go there and decided for themselves whether the sentence about the label-of-difference on the dragon's neck belongs in the same paragraph as the sentence about the dragon.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

I'm not sure what your point about "unifies" v. "differentiated" is. As I understood it, "unifies" referred to the fact that all the information was in one place. Either way, this point seems irrelevant. If it is not, please explain.

"Differentiates" as opposed to "unified" is important because by itemizing the components as referring variously to "Prince of Wales", "Duke of Cornwall", "Heir Apparent", "Knight of the Garter", etc. the material teaches us that these are all different things and not one of them equivalent to any other of them. "Prince of Wales" is not the same as "Heir Apparent", and so the Feathers of the Heir are not Feathers of the Prince.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
Again, I think you just misinterpreted "unifies".

I agree that "his coronet" does not seem to mean "his coronet as Duke of Cornwall", but your wordy explanation does nothing to prove that the feather belong to the heir apparent rather than the Prince of Wales.

True. I started writing to correct a mistake in the article, then found more mistakes on the Dicussion-page. The text on this Dicussion-page that asserts (wrongly) that there is a special coronet that is used only by the Duchy of Cornwall is this: 'I'll amend, do provide a citation showing the badge to be named for the Duke of Cornwall and we can add that as an option - regardless this is clearly [also?] used for the Prince of Wales. Note that some military sites mention a white rose, for example the "award of the White Rose of York, the personal emblem of the Duke of Cornwall and York" and others the "Duke of Cornwalls coronet"'.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Conclusion

Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not an appropriate source for a Wikipedia article. If you want to present this argument, use verifiable sources. I think you will have trouble making the argument, though. References to the Prince of Wales's Feathers can be found here, here, and here. One of these is about a book from 1953 called The Prince of Wales's Feathers. It is clearly not a "fallacy" created by this article or talk page.

Also, there is no reason to link to the same article more than once or to separate links from the paragraph. By the way, You can create hyper links by typing [http://www.example.org Example].

As far as typography, I wanted URLs and some words on their own lines single-spaced but if I didn't double-space I couldn't get that. As far as using Wikipedia as a source in Wikpedia, no, you can't cite an article that states "~p" to refute an article that states "p", but you can cite both of them to show that Wikpedia is logically inconsistent and internally self-contradictory (and, therefore, needs some work). Sources for the idea that the Feathers are attached not to the Prince of Wales but to the Heir Apparent abound if you google as I specified above.64.131.188.104 (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
My point was that edits need to be verified by reliable sources. It appeared to me that you were arguing for a change to the article without a source other than Wikipedia. If an article contradicts another, look to the one that actually has a verified source. If neither does, then neither has any meaning with respect to the other. In that case, the information should either be marked with a {{Fact}} tag or deleted. -Rrius (talk) 01:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

-Rrius (talk) 07:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Response by pbhj to Christopher L. Simpson based on Prince of Wales website page

The Prince is strongly identified with his badge The Prince of Wales’s Feathers, the use of which dates back to the 14th Century and the time of Edward, The Black Prince, who was the first Prince of Wales.

Christopher L. Simpson states that "The Ostrich Feathers are not a badge of PrinceS [sic] of Wales (in general)." this seems to directly contradict the above statement. I hear what you're saying that, paraphrasing, it just happens that he's PoW and this is his badge. However it's clear that the basis of the badge (in the quote) is that Edward was the first Prince of Wales. If it were the badge of the Heir Apparent the quote would say something like "dates back to ... Edward, ..., the first Heir Apparent to use this emblem." - it does not. Hence you should contact the Prince of Wales and tell him his highly paid royal historians are wrong. Once that page is corrected then I'd be happy to see a similar correction made here. I think we can assume that the PoW's own website is canonical unless a completely unambiguous authoritative print citation can be provided (something under crown copyright for example). My ha'penn'th. A bonus for you; you may like to study the investiture medallion of Edward Prince of Wales (1910) and note the prominence of the Feathers, a strange prominence if these are not the badge of the Prince of Wales. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Consider two statements: "Every Prince of Wales has been strongly identified with a badge which has been borne by every Price of Wales" and "The badge borne by every Prince of Wales and strongly identified with each of them during their respective lifetimes is NOT the badge of the Prince of Wales but is, rather, the badge of the Heir Apparent, a status also necessarily occupied by every single one of them." I do not believe that those two statements are contradictory. As to the 1910 Investiture ceremony: Consider why the symbols of CORNWALL would NOT be prominent: it would back the heralds into a corner of undoing it later when in some future century there occurs an Investiture of a Prince of Wales who is not and can never become Duke of Cornwall. But no such undo would ever be forced if the symbols of the Heir Apparent are allowed to drift onto the Prince of Wales, because every single Prince of Wales who is ever Invested will also be an Heir Apparent, and so those symbols will never have to be withdrawn from that event.64.131.188.104 (talk) 03:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
"why the symbols of CORNWALL would NOT be prominent" the medallion is only to celebrate that specific event in 1910, everything about it is Prince-of-Wales-y. It's got Ed at Carnarfon, it's got Prince of Wales in welsh, it's got the welsh dragon and you're saying it has the symbol of the heir apparent ... wouldn't it be a bit out of place; Welsh people would no doubt find it antagonistic as their appears to be a presumption that Wales isn't just part of England (contrary to the truth from what I can tell). Meh. Pbhj (talk) 02:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The coronet
The coronet quote "Beneath them in the centre is the shield of arms of the Duchy of Cornwall surmounted by his coronet." is a separate paragraph. The only reasonable antecedent to "his" is Duchy of Cornwall, but it may just be poorly written. The point was that military sites mentioned the Duke of Cornwall's symbol as being a coronet and this page appeared to confirm it. This being a minor evidenciary element to demonstrate that their is a coronet which is a symbol of 'Cornwall (I use an apostrophy to indicate that I wasn't writing out the full title of Duke/Duchy of Cornwall). As the coronet is used for 'Cornwall it seems unlikely that the Feathers would be too. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Unifies
I used the word "unifies" in the sense of combining elements together in a single body. The "Coat of Arms" combine the different elements which represent the different positions of Charles Windsor (PoW, DoC, Royal Arms ...) as you rightly say it is distinctly his. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The White Rose
The mention of the White Rose of Yorkshire, which I suspect is the emblem/badge of the Duke of York was simply because in the context of the previous edit - which claimed the Feathers for the Duke of Cornwall - I found a couple of citations (again military history) which used a phrase like "the White Rose of York, the personal emblem of the Duke of Cornwall and York". The citations were ambiguous and so I referenced them - I can only 'assume' that the Duke of Cornwall at the time chose to use the white rose as his personal emblem because of his superior capacity as Duke of York. At no time did I imply that the 'rosa alba' was a symbol of 'Cornwall. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
But IS "Duke of York" a superior capacity to "Duke of Cornwall", given that the latter is always an Heir Apparent and, barring his own early demise, a future King? Is there a List of Precedence for Royal Dukes showing that if a Duke of Cornwall has not yet been created Prince of Wales then a Duke of York will walk in front of him? I don't know, but I doubt it. I can think of another reason why someone who is both Duke of Cornwall and Duke of York simultaneously might employ the White Rose: because he has been Duke of York for longer, long enough to already establish the White Rose as a kind of trademark with the public, and so might be reluctant to abandon it. He'd have been Duke of York first, becoming Duke of Cornwall only later after the death or disqualification of an elder brother who was the previous Duke of Cornwall.64.131.188.104 (talk) 02:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
Please stop making long arguments like this without thinking about whether you and the other person are saying the same thing. It may be that Pbhj is saying that the Dukedom of York was superior in time, not in precedence. It would be polite to ask rather than to assume. -Rrius (talk) 03:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought I made it clear I was speculating, I think it would be down to the Duke to decide which emblem to use - perhaps he prefers cricket to pasties? Perhaps he'd just had new bosses fitted with white roses? York has certainly been of more importance to the crown, IMHO. The Duchy of Cornwall is added to the Heir Apparent to make money, it's like giving him an alotment (no disrespect to Cornwall). Pbhj (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

In summary the intent was to show that despite the overwhelming evidence of princeofwales.gov.uk (which I concede may yet be proved wrong) other sites lead in that general direction and away from the Feathers being a symbol of 'Cornwall. I'd add to that now that I also believe they are not a symbol of the heir apparent either but are truly a symbol of the Prince of Wales(note this last one mentions "heirs apparent"), as they have been since the Black Prince took them for his own. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I totally agree the feathers have nothing to do with Cornwall. I just think they have nothing to do with Wales either.64.131.188.104 (talk) 02:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

[edit] Feathers around tomb of Edward the Black Prince, Canterbury Cathedral

As an additional quanta of information there's an image here from Trinity Chapel, Canterbury Catherdral (see eg Encarta) of the bronze effigy of Edward "the Black Prince" of Woodstock at Canterbury. You can clearly see the three "Ostrich" feathers or on a field of sable. These "shields" are alternating with the quartered shield showing the leopards with fleur-de-llys ([Plantagenat]). Before anyone starts this only shows a use in the memorial for that shield, it doesn't even prove that this Edward used it nevermind if mimicry of his use was intended to be a badge for Prince of Wales or Heir Apparent. Pbhj (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

[edit] stating that badge belongs not to Prince of Wales but, rather to Heir Apparent (and in some sources not U.K. Heir Apparent but England Heir Apparent)

I'm back, with some citations. One of them is within royal.gov.uk and so in terms of being authoritative I would hope would rank as highly as princeofwales.gov.uk. Or higher, since the text I'm citing speaks far more specifally to this issue than princeofwales.gov.uk. The latter says 'his badge The Prince of Wales's Feathers' without ever really nailing it down that the badge is his badge AS Prince of Wales. But the material at royal.gov.uk states very specifically that this badge is his badge as HEIR APPARENT.

And, actually, people HAVE written to the Royal Family (as suggested above) and snitched on the various high-paid web-masters. The sites used to be littered with heraldic insignia that were defaced by smudgy photo-effects as if the sites sold mineral-water. I noticed after that was changed that you could no longer find an emblem presented in less than its complete visual form. So they DO admit that their sites get stuff wrong.

I think that princeofwales.gov.uk errs more than esthetically when it says at PrOfWGovUk that Edward The Black Prince was the First Prince of Wales. This assertion is used above to support the link between the Feathers and Wales, since The Black Prince was the first to use the Feathers. But elsewhere PrOfWGovUkList in the same site of princeofwales.gov.uk they say that the first Prince of Wales (of the English conquest) was the future Edward II, grandfather of The Black Prince. Sites that agree are EngMonarchs and Wales. Assenting too is the common folk-tale that Edward I facetiously told the Welsh that his candidate for Prince was born in Wales and could not speak a word of English, duplicitously referring to the newborn future Edward II, who had been born in Wales.64.131.188.104 (talk) 05:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
To give consideration to all sides, I concede that an (English) Prince of Wales preceding the first (English) Prince of Wales to use the Feathers proves nothing -- the badge could have been created (and linked to Wales) later than the first Prince of Wales. I'm just saying that princeofwales.gov.uk can't be correct all the time if on one page they say the Black Prince was first and on another page they say that his grandfather the future Edward II was first.64.131.188.104 (talk) 05:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
To give further consideration to all sides, I concede that it is not possible to state that picking any (English or U.K.) Prince of Wales and asserting that they were the First Prince of Wales is unequivocally wrong. Since the title is a new creation every time, there is a sense in which every post-conquest Prince of Wales who ever existed was the first Prince of Wales. By the operation of chance every Duke of York for many centuries now has been the first Duke of York. However, there has always been a possibility of a 2nd Duke of York (if a Duke of York doesn't become King and leaves a son) but there is no possibility of a 2nd Prince of Wales. Hence, it is not customary to refer to every Prince of Wales as the "first", and so "first Prince of Wales" USUALLY refers to the future Edward II.64.131.188.104 (talk) 05:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

At RoyalGovUK (an offical royal-family uk-government site) it says in the answer to the last question on the page that the appellation is "popular" (which means "not strictly correct") and very specifically and unequivocally that the Feathers are the badge of the Heir Apparent whether or not such Heir Apparent is also Prince of Wales. (Interesting aside: it states the Black Prince took the feathers from the King of Bohemia's symbols -- while legend states that he took REAL feathers off of the King of Bohemia's CORPSE. Another interesting aside: it uses the pronoun "they" to refer to an Heir Apparent. Since an Heir Apparent is not plural, this is the genderless SINGULAR pronoun "they" of recent invention. That means that this official UK-government site is unwilling to rule out the possibility of a future Heir Apparent who is female, which at present is an impossibility.)

Sorry to return AGAIN but I erred by stating Heiress Apparent is impossible. If a Prince of Wales dies leaving daughters and no sons, the oldest daughter is Heiress Apparent, not Presumptive, to the Thrones. Since her father is dead there is no possible future birth that could displace her.64.131.188.104 (talk) 06:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson
You've erred again :0) a King could die leaving a daughter as the heiress, they could then have a son in utero and so then yes the daughter would be presumptive; long shot. I think you've read to much into the choice of pronoun in this informal FAQ response. However, that is a pretty clear citation Pbhj (talk) 05:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times NYTimes, answering a question about a New York City church's ornamentation, says they're "often called" the Prince's feathers (which, again, would be simply, if they WERE the Prince's feathers, "ARE the Prince's feathers", not "often called"), and says they're more correctly known as the badge of the heir apparent.

Your link says they are atop the pulpit a "crown and array of feathers". I couldn't find a closeup image but "The pulpit is surmounted by a coronet and six feathers, and fourteen original cut-glass chandeliers hang in the nave and the galleries." says http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM065.htm NYC Architecture] website. It appears that this is a different symbol entirely to the one under discussion. If that is the badge of the "heir apparent" ... Pbhj (talk) 04:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

At FlagsOfTheWorld there is an interesting assertion that I wasn't being specific enough in saying "badge of the Heir Apparent" but that, rather, the Feathers are the badge of the Heir Apparent of ENGLAND, and that Prince Charles's badge as Heir Apparent of THE UNITED KINGDOM is different, it's the difference-marked red-dragon badge mentioned before.

He goes on to say "As heir apparent to the throne of the United Kingdom, the Prince of Wales has his own badge, the Welsh dragon." - so if this guy is right, we're all wrong. Quoting now from the princeofwales.gov.uk coat of arms page "On the left is the badge of The Prince of Wales, the three ostrich feathers encircled by a gold coronet, and on the right is the royal badge of the Red Dragon of Wales.". Pbhj (talk) 05:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

At PraguePost there is an assertion that the Ostrich Feathers scalped by the Black Prince on the battlefield are the Heir Apparent's badge "popularly called the Prince of Wales [sic] Feathers". Again, "popularly called" is qualifying language which no author would insert if the Feathers really WERE the Prince of Wales's Feathers.

Well he's wrong on the origin of the feathers and doesn't cite any source in the claim for them being for the heir apparent. As for "popularly called" this could be a literary device to show that the author doesn't know the proper name but is aware of the colloquial name. I claim they are one and the same. Incidentally, ich dien was part of Edward of Woodstock's signature it seems. Pbhj (talk) 04:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

In the discussion of gaffes involving the three-feather Roosevelt crest at AmericanHeraldry an image of the feathers in question is captioned not as the Prince of Wales's Feathers but as "Badge of the English Heir Apparent", supporting the claim (above) that the badge for UNITED KINGDOM Heir-Apparent differs from ENGLAND's Heir-Apparent. But in any case these Feathers are not the badge of the Prince of Wales.64.131.188.104 (talk) 03:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Two quotes from the article (one in turn quoting NY Times) "The New York Times account of the event describes the house as being decked with pink roses and says that 'The attendants were in white faille silk frocks trimmed with lace and silver, and wore tulle veils attached to white Prince of Wales ostrich feathers, tipped with silver, and carried large bouquets of pink roses.'" and "Edward VIII, whose emblem it had been when he was Prince of Wales". This conflicts with the image blurb in that article - if if there was weight of will behind that blurb they would also say whose emblem it had been when he was Heir Apparent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbhj (talk • contribs) 05:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] stating that the feathers belong to the Prince of Wales

  • "of the famous Prince of Wales feathers and the less famous epithet of the Black Prince by the hero of and Poitiers was" History of British Costume By James Robinson Planché, 1836. The author discusses at length the controversy of the origin of the feathers but doesn't mention anything about the feathers being to do with the Heir Apparent.
  • "the origin of the badge of the Princes of Wales and refutes the stories of its origin to which Joshua Barnes and our later historians have given currency" The Gentleman's Magazine, 1826.
  • "I have long hesitated whether to adopt the account usually given in regard to the three feathers now called the Prince of Wales's feathers and said to have been won by Edward the Black Prince from the old King of Bohemia on whose banner they were borne The statement rests solely I believe upon the authority of Camden who does not mention whence he derived it but he is in general so accurate that I can scarcely doubt that he himself received it from some source worthy of confidence." A History of the Life of Edward the Black Prince And of Various Events Connected Therewith, which Occurred During the Reign of Edward III, King of England By George Payne Rainsford James, 1836.
  • "Unfortunately for Randle Holmes's hypothesis we have no contemporary example of the feathers being used by the Princes of Wale before the Black Prince nor of the coronet now combines the plume previous to the of Prince Edward afterwards King Edward the Sixth" The Literary Gazette By John Mounteney Jephson, George Augustus Frederick Fitzclarence, 1st Earl of Munster George Augustus Frederick Fitzclarence, 1827. This one is good; it goes at some length over uses by different Princes of Wales. It has good information on origin too.
  • "as the eminent persons of the court of Edward he was likely to have known the origin of the Prince of Wales's Badge There are several copies of Ardern's treatise in the British Museum in most of which the passage alluded to is omitted but it occurs in two manuscripts both of which were certainly written towards the close of the fourteenth century a previous folio a nastere (a species of clyster pipe) and a feather of the Prince of Wales Et nota talem albam" Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of London By Society of Antiquaries of London. This is an 1843 work quoting a 1376 work wherein is noted "the only contemporary notice of the Prince of Wales's badge should occur in a memorandum in a treatise on Hemorrhoids". There are several other mentions in this work as to the controversy of the origin, again no direct mention of the feathers in connection with the Heir Apparent.
  • "thirty thousand of them were slain including twelve hundred knights and eleven persons of princely rank among the rest the aged John King of Bohemia from whom the Princes of Wales are said, though doubts have been lately cast upon the old story, to have borrowed their plume of three ostrich feathers with the motto Ich dien I serve." The Cabinet Portrait Gallery of British Worthies By C.Cox, 1845.
  • "TWENTY THIRD OR THE ROYAL WELCH FUZILIERs In the centre of their colours the device of the Prince of Wales vizi Three Feathers issuing out of the Prince's coronet in the three corners of the second colour the hadges of Edward the Black Prince vizi Rising Sun Red Dragon and the Three Feathers in the coronet motto Ich dien On the grenadier caps the Feathers as in the colours White Horse and motto Nee aspera terrent on the flap The same hadge of the Three Feathers and motto Ich dien on the drums and hells of arms rank of the regiment underneath." ORIGIN AND SERVICES OF THE COLDSTREAM GUARDS. IN TWO VOLUMES. VOL. II., 1833. Pbhj (talk) 04:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Note on the acquisition of the feathers. There is no historically verifiable indication that John the Blind ever bore three ostrich feathers. On the other hand it is well known that his crest (not to be confused with the coat of arms) consisted of a pair or black eagle wings (un vol de sable semé de tilleuls d'or). This seems to be traditional crest of Bohemia (according to Loutsch), it is notable that John might parallely have used the Luxembourgish crest (a dragon, or rather Melusine rising from her bath). As to the veracity of what happened at Crécy, it's possible though somewhat unlikely that John indeed wore his crest to battle (usually it was only worn in ceremonies or tournaments, but some exceptions are documented), if so the Black Prince could have retrieved some actual feathers (as that's the most logical way to portray those eagle wings), though ostrich feathers seem rather unlikely. Alternatively the Black Prince or someone around him may have been aware of John's full arms...
I won't get involved in the issue of whether this badge is the Prince of Wales', the heir apparent, or whoever as I have no clue. Oops, to my astonishment I just found something in Stephen Friar's A New Dictionary of Heraldry. Page 372 under the heading Wales, Prince of: The badge of the Prince of Wales is "y ddraig goch", the red dragon, upon a green mount and with a white label of three points about its neck. The so called 'Prince of wales' Feathers' badge, which comprises three white ostrich feathers enfiling a gold coronet of alternating crosses paty and fleurs-de-lis and, on a blue scroll, the motto 'Ich Dien', is the badge of the heir apparent to the English throne. It is likely that the ostrich feather badge was first used by Edward, the Black Prince, who inherited it through his mother, Philippa of Hainault (sic). Since that time it has been the personal badge of the heir apparent and may be used only by him or by his specific authority. My emphasis on heir apparent. If this is correct (I sometimes disagree with Friar's work, but he sounds so determined that I'd tend to believe his statement, though I'd prefer to verify the link to Philippa of Hainaut as I'm not aware of any such symbol in that family) the article's title would still be appropriate but the content would have to be somewhat reworked...--Caranorn (talk) 13:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)