Talk:Prince du Sang

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[edit] Which names to use and how to spell them

I am in a dispute with Charles. I want to take a poll.

1) How many people think the names of the French princes and princesses listed in this article should be written as the people were actually referred to at the time of their lives in their native language? Does anyone think that the names should be simplified beyond recognition into English? As an example, which is more accurate - "Anne, Duchess of Montpensier" or "Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, Duchesse de Montpensier"?

2) How many people think modern French usage should be used to write titles or should the usage prevalent at the time the people lived be used? As an example, let's look at capitalization. Which should be used, "Duchesse de Montpensier" or "duchesse de Montpensier"?

BoBo (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Wiki's naming conventions require that the title of the article be the form which is best known to present-day English readers. Within a biographical article, it makes sense to refer to the person by the name or title current in the period being described -- provided that this is made clear to readers: Louis XIV's grandson should be referred to as Philippe, duc d'Anjou during his youth in France, and as King Felipe V" or "King Philip V of Spain" after he became the Spanish monarch in 1700. French titles should usually be left in French (and wikified for those who may not be able to deduce the meaning, despite their similarity to equivalent titles in English). If the title is written in French, it should be lower-cased, because that is how noble titles were and are written in French. FactStraight (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
    • In the endpapers of Lucy Norton's Historical Memoirs of the Duc de Saint-Simon, Volume III, McGraw Hill Book Company, 1972, there is a facsimile of one of the handwritten pages of Louis de Rouvroy, duc de Saint-Simon's memoirs. It specifically refers to Philippe II, Duke of Orléans as, "S.A.R. Mg'r le Duc d'Orléans" with the title "duc" explicitly capitalized. That seems to indicate that the other styles used at the time like Madame la Comtesse de Soissons were also capitalized. BoBo (talk) 11:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    • In addition, in Susan Nagel's new biography of Marie-Thérèse-Charlotte of France, Marie-Thérèse, Child of Terror: The Fate of Marie Antoinette's Daughter, Bloomsbury, 2008, p.374, the author does an analysis of Madame Royale's handwriting. She reproduces a letter written in 1804 by the Fille de France to her cousin, Louis Joseph de Bourbon, prince de Condé in which she specifically refers to his son, Louis Henry II, Prince of Condé as, "M. le Duc de Bourbon" with the title "duc" explicitly capitalized. I think this is proof positive that whatever rules Wikipedia may have on the capitalization of the titles and styles of French royalty is wrong and incorrect. Is anyone going to seriously argue that the daughter of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette didn't know the correct way to address members of her own family? If people insist on using a capitalization system that is incorrect for the time they are reporting, I want to know how the Wikipedia policy can be changed. I do not want Wikipedia to be transmitting false, revisionist information. BoBo (talk) 16:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Since BoBo copied and pasted, I will copy and paste my answer from here but I will not be continuing two conversations on two pages: Spelling and grammar are now regularized. We use lower-case letters for French titles. Sorry! Just the way it is. We write in current English. Do you suggest using Old English for certain article subjects? Charles 17:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


When writing about titled personages, lower case is used when not preceded by Monsieur or Madame: Le duc d'Orléans était le cousin du roi. Madame Royale est devenue la femme du duc d'Angoulême. Only after Monsieur or Madame, does the title take a capital letter; ex: Monsieur le Comte de Chambord, Monsieur le comte de Chambord or Monsieur le Comte, Madame la Duchesse du Maine, Madame la duchesse du Maine or Madame la Duchesse.

Throughout the centuries, the French language has known many changes - grammar, spelling, meaning of word, capitalization etc. There have been many such changes since Madame Royale wrote her mémoires. If we want to write the way she did, then we have to "quote" her writings, otherwise, and when we write in French, we must follow the guidelines of today's Académie française. No one in France, even ces messieurs de l'Académie, speak or write as in the time of Louis XIV or even Louis Philippe.

In other words, I am siding with Charles. Frania W. (talk) 18:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

See also: WP:MOS-FR#Noble titles. Charles 19:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is another example to prove my point about what was current in France at the time that the senior line of the House of Bourbon ruled France. In the illustrations section of Antonia Fraser's book, Love and Louis XIV, The Women in the Life fo the Sun King, Doubleday, 2006, she reproduces a letter written in 1700 from Princess Marie-Adélaïde of Savoy to her grandmother, Marie Jeanne of Savoy-Nemours. On the last page, her style is clearly handwritten (probably by a lady-in-waiting) as "Mme. la Duchesse de Bourgogne", again with the title "duchesse" explicitly capitalized. With this, I think I have clearly established the royal House of Bourbon capitalized their titles.
As for the claim that, "spelling and grammar are now regularized,", my question is by whom and when? This sounds like a very arbitrary pronouncement, even if it was by the Académie française. By the way, if that is the case, where is the exact rule referenced? The reference to WP:MOS-FR#Noble titles isn't very helpful. That is only a detailed description of the arbitrary pronouncement. The following quote is highly suspect:
"in French with capital spelling: Comtesse de, Marquis de... (e.g. Charles de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu; Georges-Louis Leclerc, Comte de Buffon; Constantin-François de Chassebœuf, Comte de Volney). This is a incorrect Franco-English hybrid form using the capitalization rules of an English-user."
The consensus has been that all articles with French titles using de should follow the correct French form with the title in lowercase."
What consensus? As I mentioned before, by whom and when? Who are the people who came up with this: experts in French history or experts in modern French linguistics? I suspect they are linguists. Besides, even this is a policy created by modern French linguists, that should not impact the translation of the original French into modern English. The following famous books in English use this "Franco-English hybridization":
Nancy Mitford - The Sun King, Harper & Row, 1966;
Antonia Fraser - Marie Antoinette, The Journey, 2001;
Antonia Fraser - Love and Louis XIV, The Women in the Life of the Sun King, Doubleday, 2006;
Caroline Weber - Queen of Fashion, Henry Holt and Company, 2006;
Susan Nagel - Marie-Thérèse, Child of Terror: The Fate of Marie Antoinette's Daughter, Bloomsbury, 2008.
If anything, these examples prove that the "regularization of spelling and grammar" in the capitalization of French titles doesn't really exist in modern English. If modern English authors, especially of the quality of Nancy Mitford and Antonia Fraser, use the same capitalization system as did the French royal family themselves, then something is really wrong with Wikipedia policies in this area. BoBo (talk) 19:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Why on earth is this article using the French title, when a perfectly good English one exists, and rightly begins the text? Johnbod (talk) 01:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that a redirect is taking the link prince du sang to prince. Despite this problem, and the one Johnbod mentions above, I'm glad to see an article on this topic.qp10qp (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Not any more, and I did Prince of the Blood yesterday. Johnbod (talk) 01:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Although I felt it was fine for prince of the blood to be covered in the article on Prince, if there's going to be a separate article, it needed to use the English term, since there is one which exactly corresponds, both in transliteration and translation, to the French prince du sang. Ditto premier prince du sang FactStraight (talk) 07:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Also before Henry IV?

In my opinion the notion of the princes of the blood was established before Henry IV, despite what the article says at the moment. It's true that this would have become more codified under the Ancien Régime, but it was also a significant factor in sixteenth-century royal politics. For example, when Francis II died in 1560, it was held in many quarters that the First Prince of the Blood Antoine of Bourbon had the right to become the regent of the nine-year-old Charles IX; Catherine de' Medici had to buy Antoine off with the release from captivity of his brother Louis of Bourbon, prince of Condé, another prince of the blood. Louis's son Henry I of Bourbon, prince of Conde, was also a significant player in the French Wars of Religion, and was next in line to the throne after Henry of Bourbon, king of Navarre, until 1588, when he died. His son Henry II of Bourbon, prince of Condé became the First Prince of the Blood once Henry IV became king. The Catholic claimant to the throne at that time was Charles, cardinal of Bourbon, the surviving brother of Antoine of Bourbon and Louis of Bourbon. Again, his claim to the throne was as a prince of the blood. qp10qp (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

François Velde's article on the subject would seem to support your contention. Choess (talk) 01:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, that's interesting. Things became so complicated! qp10qp (talk) 02:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More on capitalization

FactStraight, I have corrected the capitalization. Look at my examples above and at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style. The titles were capitalized by the French Court when used in formal forms of address such as Monsieur le Prince or Madame la Duchesse. Even Frania W. admits as much for modern French:

"When writing about titled personages, lower case is used when not preceded by Monsieur or Madame: Le duc d'Orléans était le cousin du roi. Madame Royale est devenue la femme du duc d'Angoulême. Only after Monsieur or Madame, does the title take a capital letter; ex: Monsieur le Comte de Chambord, Monsieur le comte de Chambord or Monsieur le Comte, Madame la Duchesse du Maine, Madame la duchesse du Maine or Madame la Duchesse."

WP:MOS-FR#Noble titles was specifically changed to allow this type of capitalization, which can be applied to the article Fils de France and all biographical articles of those who were actual Fils de France or Princes and Princesses du Sang. BoBo (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I remain convinced that titles were usually not capitalized in French scholarly printed works, neither in France when the titles were in use nor in modern French -- and in my opinion it is such works which should guide Wikipedia. I do, however, concur with you that it was more common for the "Monsieur le" and "Madame la" styles to be capitalized than others, so I do not object to that form per se. However, as I expressed in the debate at MOS, I fear that "some who like to edit historical biographies are prone to maximize use of both titles and foreign phrases". When editing, I'm inclined to be vigilant for such excess, especially if the Monsieur le/Madame la locution seems to be used to get around the lack of consensus in favor of capitalization of French titles. FactStraight (talk) 07:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)