Talk:Prince Marko

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[edit] Raviojla

According to the article "it is very interesting that "raviojla" (reads "ravioyla") means "Beautiful girl" in Celtic languages". This is simply wrong. I speak three of the four living Celtic languages and there isn't even any remotely related word meaning "beautiful girl". Unless any hard evidence for that claim can be presented, I suggest it should be removed.

BTW, why is Raviojla describled as an elf-maid? Elves (álfar, alver, ælfen, Elfen, Alben, and so on) belong to northen Europe. Wasn't she really a vila, some other Slavic fairy, a nymph, or what have you, rather than an elf? --Salleman 02:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are right, Raviojla/ Ravioyla is a vil(l)a. In epic poem we could read: "vila Ravioyla..." No, she is not elf, or elf-maid... (Raviojla/Ravioyla means: girl(-like) with beautiful hear, literarily.) But, <quote>it is very interesting that "raviojla" (reads "ravioyla") means "Beautiful girl" in Celtic languages</quote>, could not find in article. --Ninam 23:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This is a POV article, which discussed only the Serbian point of view. Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs refer to him as a Bulgarian/Macedonian Slav, which I will add in the near future. There is a lot of Bulgarian poetry devoted to Krali Marko (the Bulgarian name of the historical figure). I'm wondering what the right title of the article is. Obviously it won't be fair for the article to be called Krali Marko, Marko Kraljevic or his Macedonian language name. If there's no interest in the matter, I'll make changes soon. --webkid 18:17, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Of course, his mention in epics of surrounding peoples must be mentioned but I've never heard that anyone claims that he is Bulgarian. Nikola 20:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

217.10.246.155 has replaced much of the article with the Bulgarian legend instead (and wrote a page on "Vulkashin"). We need to integrate the two. --Joy [shallot] 16:33, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BTW, a compromise name would be Prince Marko which is what the name really means. --Joy [shallot] 16:34, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree if others agree. The variant is used in English. Nikola 08:56, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why do we need a "compromise name" at all - let's just point all varieties of his name. Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Primarily because this is an English Wikipedia where the words "krali" and "kraljević" have to be translated one way or the other. I moved it. --Joy [shallot] 10:16, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If everybody is ready to leave behind chauvinistic agenda (like in the case with so called Crnobog),

While we're at it, why is "the case of so-called Crnobog" chauvinistic? I noticed that you moved the page manually to Chernobog, which isn't a proper way to do this because the page history is lost. If you simply explain why Chernobog is so much better than Crnobog or indeed many of the other variants at Talk:Crnobog, we'll make a full move, it's no problem. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

we might just include the story of Krali Marko from both Bulgarian and Serbian POV. It is even going to be interesting to compare how the epos evolved. But Nikola - putting "Great Serbian" tools in use is not gonna work. I find this deeply offensive

Which "Great Serbian" tools? What are you, GP's sockpuppet? Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

and am not gonna sit an watch. Claiming that Bulgarian rulers of South-Eastern Macedonia were Serbians makes no sense and I take it really personally - like a slap in my face. Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ethnicity aside for a moment, Vukasin was Serbian ruler because he was proclaimed zupan, despot and king bu Serbian tsar Stefan Uros, and ruled a kingdom within Uros's (Serbian) tsardom. Logically, so was Marko, who continued to rule the same teritorry. Encyclopedia Britannica, mentions Vukasin in History of Serbia[1]. Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Even Serbian historian Ilarion Ruvarac in 1888 wrote: "Ali je Kraljevic Marko rodom bugarin i s jedna i s drugi strane, t.e. bugarin i po otcu Kraljic Vukashinu i po materi Jevrosimi (Jeleni), sestri despota Momcila, koj je takodje bio rodom bugarin". Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ruvarac isn't the only historian in the world, you know. Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Prince Marko is above all a Serbian epic hero. By the ways of Serbs living with side by side with other nations he also became a hero of Macedonians, Bulgarians and even Croats. Nevertheless, he is celebrated from the Adriatic (where the first songs on him were recorded) to East Bulgaria. Since the only connection between these two lands were the Serbs living in both areas he is a Serb hero. It is a nonsence that a Bulgarian or Macedonian epic hero is celebrated in areas that have never seen anyone from Bulgaria like North Croatia! The same thing is with Hunyadi Janos who is a popular charachter in Serbian folk songs but no one doubts that he was first the hero of Hungarians and that he is historicaly a Hungarian.--Dultz 00:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK I edited the article, clearing all national agenda. Seems quite justiful to me like this. 217.10.246.155 11:37, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's good enough, to the same tune that my edit was, except less integrated. I suppose if the myths are that much different then they should be separate. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] No Celts, please

The claims that the name Ravijojla has a Celtic origin is without any scientific proof. It is an offspring of popular school of thought influenced with Celtic legends and Irish music that would like a lot of names and legends in Serbia and Balkans to be Celtic. In scientific spheres proofs of Celts in Balkans in our AD era are unknown. As the user who wrote the claim has failed to give us any citation that would lead to some evidence about it (and I consider it an impossible task) I deleted the aforementioned section. --Dultz 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)