Talk:Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian)

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[edit] POV

The article still reads very POV. Another term for primitive apostolic Christianity is Christianity; a redirect to Early Christianity seems appropo. This is a term that is used by many traditions to refer to the early Church. KHM03 22:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I was going to thank you for the redirects, but I see you have already flagged the article (as if that is not POV)! Apostolic Christianity was and is very different from modern mainstream Christianity in a number of respects. The problem with an article about Early Christianity is that is about a time period of about 330 years. This article is about a time period of almost 2000 years. If you would like to point out specifically which statements you find POV, then I would like to improve and provide more support for each. That is how you can help KHM03.--Kevin 23:28, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Mainstream Christianity (MSC for short) considers itself Apostolic. Accordingly, an article about "Apostolic Christianity" in an NPOV encyclopedia needs to discuss the largest group which considers itself apostolic...MSC (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism). It may also mention some groups on the margin (Latter Day Saints, for example), but the "meat" of the article needs to deal with the largest, most representative group. Otherwise, it's POV.

Now, primitive Christianity is equated with the early Church; in fact, greats such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley actually called the early Church the "primitive Church". That is the most prominent definition. Therefore, in an NPOV encyclopedia, primitive Christianity = early Christianity. A simple redirect ought to suffice.

I am uncertain what claims you are making here, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it seems to me that you are making the claim that some (not all, certainly) "Church of God" groups claim something else for "Apostolic" Christianity or "Primitive" Christianity. If so, that's all well and good, but these names are generally understood to mean something else by MSC and by the public-at-large.

Is there a specific school of theological thought that makes these claims, i.e., Arminian, Calvinist, Roman, etc.? If so, we may be able to help fashion an NPOV article with a more appropriate and accurate name. Until then, it seems very POV. KHM03 00:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

What MSC considers itself to be is POV. The claim to the name is POV. What would be a beneficial discussion is how Apostolic observance and teachings relate to both MSC and PAC (Primitive Apostolic Christianity), and this would be a good addition to the article. The term Primitive, can refer both to time, and practice. Early refers only to timing. Primitive can be used as an adjective describing time as in your example above, or as an adjective describing a basic or primary (understanding) of a noun (Christianity). The school of thought for PAC uses only one textbook. Everything else is just speculation and conjecture; any other label would be POV. --Kevin 01:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Because MSC is so large in comparison to more marginal groups (marginal in terms of size, not correctness), it is the dominant "version". One may disagree with MSC or its definition of "Apostolic", but any article dealing with the term (in an NPOV encyclopedia) will be dominated by MSC. That's not POV...just reality, for good or ill. I think that the Christianity article tries to define a "basic" or "primary" understanding of the Faith (with the additional understanding that specific denominations will have their own additional takes). My question regarding a school of thought was for your benefit; an article entitled Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Methodist), for example, could elucidate the Methodist view of the term more freely. Is there a school of thought, marginal grouping, or denominational heritage which claims the PAC label as you apparently want to use it? KHM03 01:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, KHM03. We are coming to an understanding! Size or correctness is what many differences of opinion are about. You are correct in saying any article will generally discuss the majority POV, and it may be the first paragraph. I would just appreciate hearing that this is POV! I would welcome you to write a paragraph or more discussing the MSC POV. Just acknowledge that it is POV! That is what the article acknowledges by using the terms some and sects. There are plenty of articles referring to MSC POV, and I would welcome you to refer to those, but please realize that TMI (too much information), will be referred as well.--Kevin 01:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you can cover these issues with the following lead statement: Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity consider themselves to be Apostolic, and this and more is discussed on their respective pages. But these faiths are also part of Nicene Christianity. This article is limited to Primitive Apostolic Christianity, as contained primarily in the Christian Bible and secondarily in the Ante-Nicene Fathers collection. (from 209.78.18.73)

This is an agreeable introduction, and I have added it to the article.--Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Another option would be to rename this article "Pre-Nicene Christianity" since there already is a Nicene Christianity. (from 209.78.18.73)

This would be another era limited description, which is not really descriptive of modern PAC. --Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Protestants also consider themselves "Apostolic", as do Mormons, etc. The term is already in use by many other groups...this is my point. To call an article PAC means you're talking about these groups. This is why I suggest we pin down the school of thought that is making these claims (Adventist? Catholic? Calvinist? What?), in order to have a more precise article title that enables Kevhorn (et al) to develop it more appropriately. KHM03 12:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought Protestants were specifically not Apostolic, i.e. sola scriptura. Mormons believe in latter day saints.

I have not read of any group that uses primitive apostolic to describe their doctrine. If you have references, we can include them.--Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Which "Church of God" are we talking about? Certainly not one down the street from me, which is pretty mainstream, and to whom most of this stuff is pretty foreign. Lots of denominations with that name. KHM03 12:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There are a number of groups that call themselves Church of God; What we are discussing are the groups that are Nomian or Sabbatarian.--Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I suggest moving this article to Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian), if you want to focus on this particular CoG school of thought. For instance, I created a while back an article on the Methodist Articles of Religion...but the Anglican Articles of Religion are more prominent and more important historically. So, I titled the article Articles of Religion (Methodist), which means the article can focus more precisely, without inherent POV concerns. I did the same for Atonement (Governmental view). I think you'd get a bit more room to maneuver, and avoid the obvious POV issues, and conflicts with MSC. KHM03 16:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

There are several articles of religion, or liturgy writings, among various denominations and distinguishing them from each other is very necessary. If there is something written elsewhere concerning current religious observance of PAC, lets discuss a necessary distinguishing term. Sabbatarian is only one difference from Nicene Christianity. Many of these groups are non-trinitarian, apolitical, not participants in war....--Kevin 16:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, then, here's a "heads up": PAC is the same as Early Christianity, Christianity, or MSC (pick one). Anything else is POV and will be edited as such. The term is not unique to any particular Sabbatarian school of thought or any other marginal group. I strongly suggest a more precise article title. KHM03 17:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Please reread my rewrite above; it was not clear enough. As stated earlier, the article and title of Early Christianity is limited to a time reference and does not denote current observance of PAC--Kevin 17:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

But PAC is practiced today by MSC...at least that's the claim made by MSC. The two are equated. Early Christianity = PAC, according to the mainstream view. That's the issue. If you wish to write about another view, then specify with an appropriate title. Otherwise, editors will have to edit this page with the knowledge that MSC is the dominant view, and your views may be lost. KHM03 18:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

How about Primitive Apostolic Christianity of the Bible or Primitive Apostolic Christianity of the Bible and Ante-Nicene Fathers? Other options are Pre-Nicene Christianity or Non-Nicene Christianity.

"PAC of the Bible" is considered by MSC to be MSC. Pre-Nicene Christianity is also EC, but could also include sects like the Gnostics. I don't think that's what you're going for. That's why I wondered if the PAC was associated with a school of thought like Arminian, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, etc., so we could make it "PAC Sabb." or whatever and be done. KHM03 19:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I have read through several Christian History articles, and I have not found any MSC group that claims to observe PAC. There are some groups labeled as Christian Primitivism by MSC that are sometimes also called Restorationists that do attempt to observe PAC (although not all restorationists view the restoration of PAC as part of their agenda). As I have said before, please bring some evidence to support your claim that MSC=PAC. Extremely early Christianity is PAC, but this early Apostolic Christianity bears little resemblance to MSC. History has changed MSC to the point that the Apostles would not be able to recognize many of the teachings that bear little resemblance to PAC. How about adding Restorationism to the title even though primitive is already in place ?--Kevin 19:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You seriously believe that MSC doesn't consider itself PAC? Wow. Speak with any Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian. What I believe is of no consequence here; the point is that MSC considers itself PAC, though it usually just uses the term "Christianity". You say, "Extremely early Christianity is PAC, but this early Apostolic Christianity bears little resemblance to MSC. History has changed MSC to the point that the Apostles would not be able to recognize many of the teachings that bear little resemblance to PAC." That's a very POV statement which I also dispute. The early Christians would recognize MSC as the Church. So, no luck there. If we add "Restorationism", which is OK with me, you'll also have Mormonism & Jehovah's Witnesses involved, which is part of that movement. Again...fine by me...if that's what you're aiming for. I tend to think "PAC Sabb." is your best bet. KHM03 19:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well that is your POV. Sabbatarian is alright, although incomplete.

Roman Catholicism holds to a form of progressive revelation, and therefore current Papal doctrine supersedes PAC, and most Protestantism has descended from that type of supersessionism. You may ask someone on the street if they think they observe PAC and they may think that is a legitimate label, but most theologians would agree that much has changed since Primitive Apostolic Christianity was the only Christianity.--Kevin 20:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, I would disagree that MSC isn't PAC...but the point is moot. With the move, you are free to explain PAC in any way you want (within WP rules) and you don't have to worry about giving proper time (which would be most, probably) to MSC. Good luck! Make a great article! KHM03 21:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

First, Mormonism definitely claims to be "PAC" as you describe. They claim that "MSC" lost apostolic/priesthood authority sometime between the first and fourth century (I've never been able to pin them down any closer than that), but that this was restored when Joseph Smith and friends were visited by Jesus, Peter, John, and others, and given this authority and teachings again. Second, Orthodoxy also claims to follow the teachings of the Bible and of the anti-Nicene fathers. For instance, when our parish was preparing for a visit from our bishop, our priest had us read what Ignatius of Antioch had to say about how one should treat a bishop, not just as a historical reference but as a practical guide to be put in practice. We deliberately follow first and second century practices regarding baptism, Eucharist, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and so on. Some outward forms have evolved, but we at least think we're building squarely on the same foundation. I say this not to try to convince you that we're right, but to make you aware of the historical claim, and to let you know that the PAC (Sabbatarian) is not as unique in this respect as it might suppose. Wesley 05:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

"ante-Nicene" (before Nicaea), not "anti-Nicene" (against Nicaea) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.17.54 (talk • contribs)

Oops! My mistake. Thanks for the catch. My overall point remains though. Wesley 13:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mormonism

Looks good Wesley. I could say much more, but I don't want to dominate the article. :-D The intent of this article seems to be in line with the dominant theme of early Mormonism. A key meme of early Mormonism was that "angels had visited the earth again" "to restore the ancient faith", and that all "the gifts and powers" of "the primitive church" had been "restored to the earth". The articles of faith say "we believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church." So your additions are certainly appropriate. Thanks for being familiar with the issues. You're a good soul. Tom Haws 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)