Talk:Primera División Argentina

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Contents

[edit] Logos

There's a really good site with free logos. Only condition is to name them. High Quality Football Logos It would be good to donwload those missing. Including some that are no longer in 1st division, but had been, such as Huracan, Argentinos, etc. Also should update international competition's pages. --Marianocecowski 09:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Argentinos Juniors is in First Division (as of now...). Bear in mind that most clubs have changed logos at some point. elpincha 12:47, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Club Position

We should make a desition regarding Tournament and Position for the clubs.

We could -put the current Position and League at tie of edit-, or we could put the ending Position of the past Tournament.

For example, Clausura 2005 is about to finish, and we can set all the Positions at the end of it. But when the Apertura begins, are we going to modify the data after every weekend? Seams to me better to keep last Tournament's Positions. Comments? --Mariano June 30, 2005 07:24 (UTC)

You're right about the need for consistency. But enforcement would be difficult, so let's be tolerant... I hope nobody got mad about my putting the championship in Miguel Angel Russo's article a few minutes before it was actually true... elpincha 30 June 2005 08:18 (UTC)

[edit] Over 32Kb

The size of the article finally crossed the 32kb limit. And I was hoping to add another table with all the relegations/promotions[1]. Should we make another page with the detalied statistics and leave only the short ones? -Mariano 13:47, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I think we should split and also consider a cleanup to eliminate redundancies between this entry and the Football in Argentina article. elpincha 08:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, Football in Argentina is a rather slim article, but the history part of Primera División Argentina could be moved there and be only referenced here.

The Top-3 table and records perhaps deserve an article of theirs own. We could leave only the second table with number of titles, or not even that. I wanted also to keep a table on relegation/promotion, probably in a forth article. We will need to think good names for such articles though. -Mariano 12:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Axis

"No team from outside the Buenos Aires-Rosario axis has ever won a title, and a reversal of this trend is not likely to occur in the foreseeable future."

What do we do with Quilmes and Estudiantes LP? It can be argued that Quilmes is from Bs. As, but Estudiantes?? I don't think ELP qualifies as a Buenos Aires team, since La Plata is not even included in the Greater Buenos Aires area...

Maybe Buenos Aires is meant to be about the province, although pairing it with Rosario would be odd. Maybe "only teams from Buenos Aires and Rosario have ever won a title, yadayada". Don't forget to sign with ~~~~. SpiceMan (会話) 13:12, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it has already been solved by Sebastian himself. -Mariano 13:58, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, c'mon Spice, are you going to chastise me for not signing once? Bummer! :):):)
Related to the matter in hand, I did try to fix it, mainly to avoid the odd pairing between a province and a city. :)
--Sebastian Kessel 16:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Top scorers

Argentina - List of Topscorers Mariano(t/c) 12:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

What is this, Macaya??? :-) Sebastian Kessel Talk 16:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Why, the list of top scorer of each season of the Argentine football! Mariano(t/c) 08:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I know, gracioso, I mean what it is for. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 16:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, eventually we will have to make an article from it, doncha think? Mariano(t/c) 08:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I do m'friend, I do... Good foresight. :) Sebastian Kessel Talk 16:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Teams in Primera Division

che loco, shouldn't there be a table or list with all the teams currently in primera division?! This article has everything about primera but nothing on the teams currently playing in it :S Arg2k 18:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third place finishes

During the Metropolitano and the Nacional, many of the seasons featured semi-finals. How was it determined which of the losing semi-finalists deserved the third place finish?

In Nacional 1982, the table in this article gives Talleres 3rd place, even though Estudiantes (the other SF loser) finished above them in Group C, and lost their semi by a smaller margin 0-3 as opposed to 4-8. The only surviving factor is that they lost to the eventual champions, but in the very next season Temperley lost to the eventual champions, but Argentinos Juniors were credited with the 3rd place. If no-one comes up with an explanation I would like to amend the table to include both losing semi-finalists. King of the North East (T/C) 11:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

As no-one replied to this for 7 month I went ahead and made the changes a few days ago. EP 18:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Method to determine Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana places

How does Primera División Argentina determine which team will participate in the Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana? For example, as Copa Libertadores 2008 starts around February, does the result of the Apertura 2007 determined the places? Or the entirely result of Apertura and Clausura 2005/06? Or the result of Clausura 2007 and Apertura 2007? The question is the same for Copa Sudamericana. Can anyone help? Salt (talk) 05:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Historically the results of the previous season determined participation, therefore Copa Libertadores 2008 was represented by Apertura 2006 champions Estudiantes, Clausura 2007 champions San Lorenzo. 2007 Libertadores holders, Boca Juniors and the three best placed teams from the combined points of Ap06 and Cl07, excluding the three already qualified.
Participation for Copa Libertadores 2009 will be determined using: Apertura 2007 champions, Clausura 2008 champions, Apertura 2008 champions,the two best placed teams from the combined points totals of the three seasons combined.
Participation in Copa Sudamericana is determined like this: Boca Juniors and River Plate by invitation, the 4 best placed teams from the combined points totals of Apertura + Clausura.
Complicated stuff huh? EP 20:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, it's really complicated. Thanks for your clear explanation.
But there are still somethings that I would like to make sure. For the new system for Copa Libertadores 2009, is it a long term system and will also be used in the future? If so, then wouldn't it be so strange that for the winners of Apertura, it can participate the Copa Libertadores twice because it can play in the Copa Libertadores this season as well as the next season?
For the Copa Sudamericana, are Boca and River Plate invited every year certainly? And who is the invitor, the Argentine Football Association or the CONMEBOL?
Lastly, before the current Apertura and Clausura system was adopted, how were the two places of Copa Libertadores allocated?
I hope I didn't ask too much. I hope this part can be explaned more clearly in the article as it is quite confused for those who are not familiar with South American football. Your answer would certainly be a great help! Thanks! Salt (talk) 15:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
1. In future it will be worked out with the combined Clausura and Aperura for the year before. Therefore Lib 2010 will involve teams qualifying via Cl 09 + Ap 09. But I'm not 100% sure of this.
2.River and Boca are invited by CONMEBOL every season no matter where they finish in the table, then the best four finishes amongst the rest, (Arsenal get an additional place in Sudamericana 2008 as holders).
3.Before and during the early years of the Ap & Cl system they had a pre-libertadores liguilla tournament, similar to qualification events still held in Uruguay. Before that the winners of the Metropolitano and Nacional qualified automatically. I would leave the history of qualification out of the article though, as the qualification process is already complicated enough to confuse most people. The qualification information for specific seasons can be found in the Seasons in Argentine football articles. EP 18:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your answer again! I totally agree with you that the history of the qulification is too complicated to be included in the main article. Nonetheless I think it is valuable to be included in somewhere at wikipedia. So I am planning to start a new page on the historical change and add a link in the main article. Though it may not be a long article, I think it is helpful for those who are interested in Argentine football, like me.
BTW, I find one more strange thing. As there are places for those best teams in the combined table in the previous season in both Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana, it is necessary that all those places are allocated to the same teams, isn't it? For example, the three best team get the Copa Libertadores spots in the combined table must also get the places in Copa Sudamericana because they must be 3 of the best 4 teams. So the teams participating in these two cup must be nearly the same? It is very strange, isn't it? Salt (talk) 05:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Metropolitano and Nacional

I have got some questions concerning these two competitions.

1. In the article, it is said "Originally, the Metropolitano was a regular two-group championship, from which the six best teams of each group would advance to the Nacional." However, as what I have found in 1967, the Metropolitano was a 2 groups tournament, while the Nacional is a league of 16. If the best six teams from Metropolitano qualify to the Nacional, isn't it a 1w teams competition? Why is it a 16 teams tournament?

2. It is said "In 1970 the tournaments were separated; the Metropolitano had its own qualifying groups, and the Nacional two groups and play-offs." If tournaments were finally separated the Metropolitano finally had "its own" qualifying group in 1970, does it mean Nacional is the qualifying groups for the Metropolitano before? But how is it possible that a later held Nacional can act as the qualifying group for the Metropolitano?

3. In question one, it says teams of the Metropolitano qualified to the Nacional, while in question two it says teams in Nacional qualified to the Metropolitano. What is the relationship between the Metropolitano and Nacional?

4. It is said that "Nacional, which was open to teams from the provinces", it seems it implies that Metropolitano only allowed teams in the old competition to participate. Is it true? If so, is this policy continue until the end of Metropolitano-Nacional era and teams not in the old competition could only play in one tournament (the Nacional) in a year? What were the exact criteria of eligibility to play in these two competitions?


I found the concerned section in the article is quite confusing. I don't really understand the content. Hope someone can help. Thanks a lot. Salt (talk) 17:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

See this, qualification and relegation details are given there. (follow the links 1961-1970,1971-1980 and 1981-1990). Regards EP 17:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)