Talk:PRIDE Fighting Championships

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[edit] UFC/Zuffa now own Pride

This has been made official on Pride's Website and at a press-conference in Japan. I performed some updates, but a section devoted to this might be warranted. This news is HUGE for both Pride and MMA in general --Carl Von Clausewitz 10:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PRIDE events

This section makes note of bushidos, grand prixs, regular numbered events, and even "the best", but there is no mention of their shockwave events. This could potentially be included as an aside to the grand prix events since finals have been held at select shockwave events, but I think they deserve their own entry as this has not always been the case. Aeth3r 00:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Aeth3r

[edit] dream stage entertainment and yakuza link

Shukan Gendai is a known tabloid in Japan that publishes sensationalized stories. It seems that neither DSE, Pride, or Fuji TV have put out any press releases regarding this information. I don't know if we should take the news article to heart before we get information directly from one of the sources.

I agree with this comment. Wikipedia is looked at as a reliable, unbiased source by many. That the Pride FC wiki article would even mention a yakuza link citing a Japan Inc. article overviewing Japan's fight business is silly. What it all distills down to is this: A wiki writer wrote about a rumor of a rumor of a rumor mentioned first on a disreputable Japanese tabloid. "Relevant context"? You must mean unprofessional high-school yard talk. Someone ought to clean the article up of this garbage.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.80.39.59 (talk • contribs)

This "disreputable Japanese tabloid" is the reason why PRIDE got kicked off of Fuji TV. These yakuza accusations has been talked about every major MMA publication in the States--Sherdog, MMAWeekly, WON. Frankly, it's been six months since I wrote the comment below and while back then it was in a gray area, now it's very clear that Shukan Gendai brought down PRIDE. What you're advocating is whitewashing. hateless 18:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Your point is well-taken, and frankly, if someone removed that last sentence I won't protest. However, I did include it because it does give relevant context, even if it was a bit speculatory. That Nihon Keizai Shimbun in this article mentioned Shukan Gendai and the yakuza I think is enough to justify its inclusion here. Fuji TV could very well have dropped PRIDE because of negative publicity despite any actual yakuza involvement. hateless 00:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audience attendance

Just re-reading the opening paragraph:

"It is the most popular MMA organization in the world based on the number of event attendees: the PRIDE Final Elimination 2003 event had 65,000 people in the audience."

Final Elimination 2003? I assume this is refering to Final Conflict 2003, but it might also mean Total Elimination 2003. Anyone have any ideas? --- Trench 16:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

it was the event in which chuck lidell appeared, thid MIGHT have been the one which he LOST!!!--T00C00L 02:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable fighters

Given that this is the most subjective part of the article I thought I thought it'd be best to have some of my reasoning behind the current list here. - Trench 00:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ippon

"Ippon A fighter taps either his opponent or the mat three times."

As I understand it, an ippon is forcefully throwing your opponent to the ground in Judo. Genjix 17:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

In judo, an ippon (a full point) is awarder for a submission by armlock or choke, in addition to an excellent throw. This is how Pride uses the term.

[edit] Format

I've made a couple of changes to try and make the list easier to read

Removed fighters nicknames which I feel are better placed on the individual fighters articles
Removed several of the more 'empty' reasons for that fighter being notable, eg. stating 'current middleweight contender' doesn't tell the reader anything. Whether a fighter is a 'draw' or 'gatekeeper' I think is too subjective.

[edit] Additions/Removals

11 Oct 2005 - Slight modification to differences between Pride/UFC. Pride rules redone, taken from website.

I have added Goodridge and Herring. Both have moved onto K1 but I feel their records with Pride make them notable.

I have removed Schembri as he has only had one notable fight, (beating Sakuraba). I've have also removed Belfort and Liddell as I feel they are notable UFC fighters.

I have removed Herring, maybe if it is deemed neccesary to include previous fighters the heading should be renamed "Current and Former Notable PRIDE Fighters" Evil Angry Cat 23:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible future additions

Feel free to add names that might be worth adding here for discussion.

Kevin Randleman. Although he has not held a belt or been in a GP final, he has faced a lot of top fighters.

[edit] Objective ordering

For example: first the current weight-class belt holders, then the most recent tournament belt holders, then past belt holders by # of belts (alphabetically if tied), then by the total number of wins in PRIDE (or MMA).

Alternatively, just use alphabetical ordering for everyone. Maybe have a separate "Tournament winners" section. Shawnc 19:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling/Style

Should "PRIDE" be all-caps? The article doesn't seem consistent in this point, neither do any other MMA articles on wikipedia actually. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) implies it should be "Pride" but it seems to be the journalists consensus to write it as "PRIDE". Personally, I'm leaning for all-caps. hateless 19:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

A benefit of using PRIDE is distinguishing the organization more clearly. Shawnc 07:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and all-cap all instances of "PRIDE" I see. I'm going to justify this with the don't invent new formats rule in the manual of style (trademarks), since it's well established to all-cap "PRIDE" when referring to the promotion. hateless 17:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Thats like asking that 'shouldnt WWE, UFC, WBA (etc) have full stops between them?' cuz initials oughta have full stops after each letter, but no one does THAT even, so, how can you be stupid enough to ask if PRIDEfc should really be capitals or not, YEAH, their company named and brands it in capitals than why WoNt we ??? --T00C00L 12:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Testing for Performance Enhancing Drugs

I recently heard that PRIDE does not test for performance enhancing drugs. Does anyone know if this is true? 66.170.4.59 (Talk) 17:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

PRIDE tests for substances illegal in Japan, I believe. They do test, just that their standards are much lower than standards in Nevada, which folks in the US like the UFC must follow. hateless 19:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The announcers have mentioned that PRIDE does blood tests for AIDS on all fighters before every event. Maybe this should be included in a 'Testing' section. DesertSwan 02:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no mandated drug testing in their Japan events. They did have to test for PRIDE 32 "Real Deal" which was held in Las Vegas. Eight fighters came back clean and two failed, one of which was Vitor Belfort. He reportedly tested positive for 4-hydroxytestosterone, an anabolic agent. Refer to Sherdog or MMA Weekly for further details. Ddddcheap 23:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rule Differences with UFC

   * Kicking and kneeing a downed opponent are allowed in PRIDE but not in UFC.
   * Elbows to the head/face are allowed in UFC but not in PRIDE.

Shouldn't the first read "Kicking and kneeing a downed opponent in the head"? Also it should be made clearer that downward elbow strikes using the point of the elbow are not allowed in the UFC.

no it doesnt have to say "in the head" cuz kicking anywhere or stomping a downed opponent

anywhere is also illegal in UFC.--T00C00L 02:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

You are allowed to kick the legs of a downed opponent in UFC. --TheCooperman 14:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

we dont really have to add that downward elbow strikes thing, cuz UFC has a LOT of crappy rules and if we add THIS itd justr be fair to add them ALL!!!--T00C00L 02:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, kicking a downed opponent in the UFC is fine, as long as its not in the head. GSP has landed some viscous axe kicks to the stomach of downed opponents. Skeletor2112 07:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It should read:

   * Kicking and kneeing a downed opponent in the head are allowed in PRIDE but not in UFC.
   * Stomping a downed opponent is allowed in PRIDE but not in UFC.
   * Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck is allowed in PRIDE but not in UFC.
   * Elbows to the head/face are allowed in UFC but not in PRIDE.
   * The first round in PRIDE is 10 minutes while the first round in UFC is 5 minutes.

Those five things are the most notable differances... explaining the more sublte points like in PRIDE you can't knee or kick to the head of an opponent that falls face down and in UFC you can't strike downward with the point of the elbow makes those points to combersome. BD Defense 07:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Are there ANY elbows to the head allowed in PRIDE? The word 'downward' is redundant.

Why have this section at all? If you go to the UFC page, there's nothing about their differences with PRIDE. They don't even mention PRIDE and they shouldn't. To compare to UFC just makes you wonder why there isn't a comparison to each and every other MMA group. I think listing what's allowed and what's disallowed in the rules is enough. It's a PRIDE page and should be all about PRIDE. DesertSwan 02:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There's an argument that can be made that because the UFC is the more dominant major promo in the english speaking world, some comparison with the UFC on this article would be a useful topic. If you notice the Japanese version of the UFC article, it has a similar comparison of PRIDE rules.hateless 08:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PRIDE is not the largest MMA org

That honor goes to FEG/K-1/Hero's. Whoever keeps changing the article to say PRIDE is the largest MMA org in Japan or the world is going to get reverted without a source. hateless 15:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, but isnt K-1 a 'kickboxing-type organization', that 'occasionally' holds 'MMA events' (K-1 HERO'S). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by T00C00L (talk • contribs) .

No. They have several major MMA shows per year. SubSeven 16:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

yeah, but it is NO WAY as popular or big as PRIDE !!!--210.4.69.5 03:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well to settle the matter we need some verifiable sources, presumably either recent PPV figures or audience attendence numbers would suffice. Trench 15:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

the PRIDE Final Conflict 2003 event had over 67,000 people in the audience. The audience record is 91,107 people on the PRIDE and K-1 co-production Shockwave/Dynamite, held in August 2002, you could count shockwave 2002^ as PRIDE or not, but people came to see Hidehiko Yoshido kick Royce Gracies ass (once again), both were PRIDE contracted fighters!

and a recent Poll on Sherdog asked which event people would watch or buy and like the most:

K-I HERO'S, PRIDE BUSHIDO, UFC, PRIDE OPENWEIGHT GRAND PRIX, and 1 or 2 others ('small times')

and K-1 receved the lowest, followed by Bushido and UFC, and PRIDE GP received over 65% - 70%. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by T00C00L (talk • contribs) .

We all know K-1 is the biggest fighting organization Japan, but is it that big worldwide? I never see it on PPV, and aside from ESPN2 a few years back, rarely on tv at all. A lot of people base both K-1 and PRIDE's popularity on the one event that they combined forces on, what - five years ago? It's even rarer to see or hear anything about K-1's Hero's/ROMANEX or whatever their MMA promotion is called. It might just be that they are not big here in the US and are huge everywhere else, but from an American MMA fan's perspective, K-1 is not really even on the map. Does K-1 even do complete MMA cards? From what I have seen, they usually do like 4 bouts under K-1 rules, and 4 under MMA rules.

As far as "what makes an org the biggest", that's a tricky one - does the "live gate" alone make an org the largest? I would argue that the PPV buys, or TV ratings, are probably more important and better demonstrate the popularity of an org than the live gate. UFC 61 had 600,000+ PPV buys in the US, with a live gate of 11,167. I've never seen PRIDE PPV numbers, but they have to be decent in the US, and much bigger in Japan. While I agree that PRIDE is probably the biggest "MMA" org in the world, with no solid references, I vote that any reference to "biggest" should be left out for now. Skeletor2112 09:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say that since the UFC has by far the greatest number of people paying to watch, they should be considered the bigest. Yes, PRIDE does have more people at the gate, but far less at the PPVs. --Ronputvis 05:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

um, K-1 is available in the USA on iN DEMAND !!!T00C00L 09:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ???

The main page says that their Fuji tv deal is no more; and PRIDE's website says that FSN shows PRIDE archives and will also be airing BUSHIDO SURVIVAL 2006 2ND ROUND on Aug 27, 2007, so the main page says that PRIDE is left without a tv deal, but they HAVE one, so someone oughta rub that part that they DONT have a tv show, and also put in the fact about them and FSN.

PRIDEfc on FSN

BUSHIDO SURVIVAL 2006 T00C00L 09:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You missed two very important words: "in Japan". Fuji TV paid PRIDE millions to air PRIDE events on Japanese TV, while PRIDE was actually paying Fox Sports to air their highlights show. I doubt if they are being paid by FSN to air Bushido Survival 2006 that it will be a substantial payment that in any way compares to the revenues they got from Fuji. hateless 06:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Woah, i dont think u get anything, WHY would PRIDE pay FSN to air Bushido Survival, its NOT on pay per view, if PRIDE paid FSN where would the profit come from??? and who would pay for the Show and arena, where would the bugdet come from??? T00C00L 09:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Chill man, no need to be insulting... The USA is somewhat of an afterthought to PRIDE. They make serious money in Japan off off of ticket sales (usually 30,000 or more per show), and PRIDE is still shown on SkyPerfecTV(Japans biggest satalite TV) pay per view. PRIDE did pay for monthly one hour blocks on FSN for their highlight shows in the US, but I assume they are making somthing off of this Bushido event on FSN. More than the money they may get from FSN, I believe PRIDE is trying to get their name out in order to promote their first US event in October, as they are with sending Wanderlei over to the UFC. Skeletor2112 08:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Once again Added my huge 'Discovery' to wikipedia

I just added the Korean PRIDE FC website!!! --Too Cool 15:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pride VS UFC

I added a link regarding the PRIDE president suggesting other matches. However, I am rather concerned that this article has too many much regarding these recent events. Likewise, I look under the UFC article and there is not one mention of PRIDE, yet this article is littered with comparisons. --chadq

There's actually only one comparison with the UFC, and that's in the intro in the rules section. Considering the UFC/Unified MMA ruleset is the dominant ruleset in the English-speaking world (used in the US, Canada, and the UK), it would seem some comparison is fine, especially in such a limited placement. As for the Silva-Liddell episode, there's an argument that whole paragraph should be removed due to undue weight. hateless 20:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It is Official

It is official, everything that i said and posted,

that mike tyson will fight in PRIDE and that he will fight in the new years eve show and that his fight will be held in macau -china,

that PRIDE will hold PRIDE 33 also in USA, and that it will be on february 24th 2007 in california, and that wanderlei silva will fight there with the world MW title on the line,

and that quite a number of japanese fans had flown right from japan to view the event, even though an act like that would cost them THOUSANDS of $dollars.

well, its all been confirmed, and much more announced, and its all official and right here on the PRIDEfc website- http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/index.php?mainpage=news&news_id=889 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.76.96.12 (talk • contribs) .

The second US show has been known for some time, they pretty much announced it at The Real Deal.

I've removed the trivia about Japanese fans traveling to the US for the event for a second time (PRIDE 32). It's no more notable than the fact that US fans travel to Japan to watch shows. --- Trench 00:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

On October 21, 2006, PRIDE held its first MMA event in USA, PRIDE 32: The Real Deal took place at the Thomas & Mack Center in Las Vegas, Nevada. It was the first PRIDE event to be held outside of Japan, and in front of an audience of 11,727.

There should be some mention on the page of the severe rules changes that the state of Nevada imposed. PRIDE's first show in America was not even close to a PRIDE event; 10 point must scoring, no 10 minute first round, no shoes, no kicks or knees to a downed opponent (maybe just his head) and even coating a fighter's face with vaseline. The only way this farce represented a PRIDE event was the electronics show and the pretty Japanese girls. This statement in the History section needs a big asterisk. DesertSwan 03:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HUSTLE

Why is HUSTLE not mentioned? it was in part started by PRIDE and maintains a large following69.9.28.171 21:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the Dream Stage Entertainment article because it was not started by PRIDE as much as it was by DSE. PRIDE and HUSTLE are both brand names of DSE, so mentioning HUSTLE is something like mentioning Sprite in the Mr. Pibb article. hateless 08:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KRS is not DSE

I am editing out any reference of KRS becoming DSE because it is not true and I have sources. From Clyde Gentry's book No Hold Barred, (ISBN 190385430X) pg.252: "...Pride 4 would be the final event for KRS. The company sold Pride to Dreamstage [sic] Entertainment..." Also, running ja:KRS through Google's translator seems to support this, as it states KRS was a partnership of several conglomerates, none of them are DSE's current owner. For KRS to become DSE also makes no sense, KRS was aiming to more or less wipe out pro-wrestling with MMA (Gentry), while DSE obviously embraces pro-wrestling. hateless 07:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Looking at the article, I thought the references could do with tidying up. Therefore, unless there is resistance, I'm going to go through and tag the references so they will appear in the references section. -- Crazyknight 11:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Tagged all the references bar two. Had to replace the Liddell-Silva reference with an English equivalent. One of the unlabelled links is a Japanese site. The other doesn't seem to support the statement which it is linked to. Anybody willing to investigate? -- Crazyknight 22:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the Japan inc. citation, it seems they changed their site a bit and the full article comes up if you removes some extra parameters off the URL. For the one where Sakakibara suggests "alternatives" to Silva for Liddell, I think that whole sentence can be removed, I don't think it was a serious offer to begin with and I doubt we'll find the references for it, I believe it was an obscure comment the Japanese press mentioned off-hand but the American MMA press ignored. hateless 23:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Hateless. You're the strong back of this wikiproject. I removed that Japanese link and the statement it supported, replacing it with the reference to Dana White's interview with Neil Davidson where he said "the Japanese are very hard to do business with". There were two references to that JapanInc article, so I've taken your rejigged citation and combined it with the other. Retagging of the existing references is now complete. Hopefully, I've made this article a bit more compliant. Crazyknight 23:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bringing sense to the "Notable Fighters" section

I say this not in the interest of homogenisation but in the interests of preventing edit wars. Would it be possible to come to an agreeable standard for the Notable Fighters section of this article? On the UFC article, it is tournament winners and champions. Could we not keep this to a) major drawing cards i.e. Takada, the Gracies, b) champions and c) Grand Prix winners and finalists. If PRIDE is considered the biggest MMA promotion in the world, why is Phil Baroni listed as notable when he has never been a big noise in PRIDE?

This would reduce the list to:

Champions: Fedor Emelianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Takanori Gomi.

GP finalists: Mark Coleman, Igor Vovchanchyn, Quinton Jackson, Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, Ricardo Arona, Murilo Bustamante, Hayato Sakurai, Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipović, Josh Barnett, Kazuo Misaki, Denis Kang.

Notable draws: Kazushi Sakuraba, Nobuhiko Takada, Rickson Gracie, Royce Gracie and Mark Kerr.

I think we'd agree that Giant Silva doesn't belong on the list, though notable draws is open to interpretation. -- Crazyknight 15:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tilting away from NPOV

The article is starting to tilt toward a pro-PRIDE viewpoint and is starting to read like something from PRIDE's website. I'm correcting it a bit, I've removed the Controversies subsection and integrated it with the rest of the History section because they're not controversies as much as it was negative news about PRIDE. There's no need to ghettoize it into its own little subsection. Also, the Fuji TV withdrawl is still a huge concern, PRIDE's sustainability is still in doubt, and the History section is glossing over it a bit, as well as the yakuza accusations. hateless 19:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PRIDE has not been bought by anyone yet

Removed the part of the article that an anon ip added about how Zuffa has purchased Pride - patently false at this point. Edwardtang 18:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

More recent evidence reported by Dave Meltzer and Sherdog.com indicates that Pride has been sold to Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta (of Zuffa LLC). Only minor details are being worked out at this point and PRIDE President Sakakibara is stepping down. Chaos0mega 20:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Reportedly PRIDE is saying they're planning a "big announcement" for March 27, which is rumored to be when they announce the aquisition by Zuffa. It's also been reported that Sakakibara has told US PRIDE staff that Zuffa is in the process of buying PRIDE and that he will be leaving but the US staff will all keep their jobs. This is all unconfirmed speculation, though, until something substantive is announced. --Bk0 (Talk) 00:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

NBC Sports.com (and several other Japanese news sources) is reporting that the PRIDE sale will be announced tomorrow. There should be enough justification to mention this story on the page now. I'd personally do it but I'm too lazy to edit twice as we'll learn alot more come tomorrow about the sale (or lack of one). hateless 23:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Consolidation is technically correct, but as the AP report states in common language they were purchased by the UFC. Quadzilla99 20:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That point is refuted by MMAWeekly: "Sakikabara pointed out that it isn't the UFC that is buying Pride; it's the Fertittas. He said that the Fertittas will have 100% ownership."[1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hateless (talk • contribs) 20:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Ah okay thanks for the link. Quadzilla99 21:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

But are they still changing the rules? No more stomps or knees? Come on...that what makes Pride so fun to watch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.210.17 (talk) 22:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

PRIDE is now, in 2008, defunct. Any changes in rules is moot at present. hateless 01:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organization of history section

A few weeks ago, I tried to organize the history section into a few more headings, but I was reverted. Right now, it skips from "Origins" to "Pride Worldwide". Surely something happened in between? I tried "GP era" and "Bushido era" because those were obvious breakpoints in the flow of the section, not because there is a clear border between them. If you don't like them, can you propose alternate headings? As the article stands now, without headings at all, it looks like everything that happened to PRIDE before the Fertitta's bought it was part of its origins. gnfnrf (talk) 14:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

An obvious breakpoint would be at where KRS was dissolved and PRIDE was assumed by DSE, but the section is so deficient it doesn't even note that. The problem is the section is a prose form of the List of PRIDE events page, it barely goes into any relevant backroom history and other changes and issues. The comparison between the history section on UFC and this is stark, but then again, the UFC's history is much better documented. Anyway, the key divisions in PRIDE's history should be these: Origins (with KRS), Expansion/DSE takeover, As the top Japanese promotion, Yakuza allegations crisis, and Fertitta purchase. How the current content should be organized into these sections is another matter. hateless 18:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)