Image talk:PrincedomMNEdi.PNG

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally someone found an computer version of:

[edit] Incorrect flag

Imbris, this flag didn't exist. This reminds me when you accused me for the NemanjicCrnojevic bit, lol are we switching sides? :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what do you mean when say that such flag never existed. Do you mean that it was never described or that the evil Government of Montenegro is lying [1]. Probably it could be traced to some museum or archive where it could be to this day observed and checked by C-16 or simmilar methods. -- Imbris (talk) 00:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course I am not. Please do not put words into my mouth. I am saying that you failed to see that it is white, and not golden - and the fact that it's actually the military banner. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop claiming that Danilo had a white eagle on his flag. Because Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and the image from Nikola I war flag both have golden/yellow eagle. Nikola simply inherited Danilo I war flag. -- Imbris (talk) 23:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

For crying out lauds, not a single flag had a golden double-headed eagle. This is original research. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this edit summary of yours ("Nikola inherited Danilo and kept the yellow eagle on his war flag"). Please see Nicholas' Banner yourself. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you think this is orriginal research then address the issue at a proper place. This discussion would be at a more constructive level if you would stop claiming something that everybody can see for themselves. I have used as a source official documents which have historical value and are museum heritage in Montenegro. Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and Image:Nikola I used firstly as a War flag.png are enough sources for everybody but you. -- Imbris (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Why do you still claim that not a single flag had a golden double-headed eagle. -- Imbris (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

And everybody can see this to the up. Both that flag in here, and the two flags you linked use white color. It is you who misinterprets them. BTW, it's very amusing how you argued the validity of the Serbian Kingdom's flag, on the argument that Dulcert's map depicts it white and not yellow, and in here claim that it's actually yellow and not white. :D

Because I know at least some basic things about Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Maps have been very valuable at the time so made on sheep skin (Pergamena). What Markuš and the other one made are still not enough to withstand any historical or auxilliary historical test. Stop reverting the file. And do you know what I find amusing. The fact that Markuš is a ultra-nationalist who printed his booklet (of 100 and so pages) in 20.000 copies. It is clear what is his intend, using the booklet as a political pamflel because he is a politician and not a historian, his work is also not a historical work but a hoby-research into symbols of Montenegoro. If that was a historical work then it would have 1000 or so pages and would be printed in 1000 or so copies. -- Imbris (talk) 01:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Not just Markus' book. Every other source. Even that website you yourself used depicts all flags with a white eagle, and you cannot imagine how shocking this comes to me - it's as if you'd claim that the top stripe on the Flag of Hungary is violet and not red. If Markus is an ultra-nationalist - then I guess you might share some of his attitudes. ;) Please don't try to undermine every single source, just because it doesn't support your original research. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice words from Pax. He really thinks that he is well off in this discussion. It is strange to see how he continues to claim that no Montenegrin flag - ever - had a golden/yellow eagle. 60% or more of the peoples in Montenegro do not agree with him. They have through their lawful representatives selected a flag of Montenegro which use heraldic elements that existed in Montenegro of Danilo I.

I would not even comment his views that I am a nationalist because I worked with several Serbian editors who commented my work with compliments. Pax lives in Serbia and thinks that Panonian views are correct (regarding drawing of Serbia before 1st of December 1918. Well that is not correct, and the majority of Wikipedia agreed - this image was deleted.

What sources. Some modern day books that claim Serbia to the Vladivostok.

Imbris (talk) 23:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

For heavens sake, people in Montenegro argue ON THE COLOR OF THE COAT OF ARMS - EAGLE. No one SANE (0%) argues that the flags had a white eagle. The new flag was a mixture of heraldic and vexilologic symbols.

That seems to me like youd claim. :) PPNjegos (talk) 12:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And that 0% elected the Parliament who elected the Government who made the Flag and the CoA based (by even your oppinion a mixture of heraldic and vexillologic symbols) - they are all wrong. Parliament has been elected by the entire people(s) no matter what pollitical group they belong.

Everything is sourced but in the interest of being detached and by looking at the historical images - then why stating the unsupported claim that in Montenegro there has never been a golden/yellow eagle. It is Danilo I. who institutioned the golden/yellow eagle.

Also no one has commented that the historical war flag of Danilo I had golden letters D. I. and not black ones which modern sources claim.

Imbris (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope. They are right. YOU are the one who is wrong.

Where is your source? --PPNjegos (talk) 21:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Just below, in the second headline. -- Imbris (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean you dont have them. PPNjegos (talk) 08:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Obvious misinterpretation of sources

To Pax. Why you insist on revertment to the obviously and most apparent misinterpretation of the sources Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and Image:Nikola I used firstly as a War flag.png. The file you are constant in reverting to Stefke version is a mistake because uses black letters D. I. instead of old gold colour which is present on the first source. -- Imbris (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

How can't you see - you are the one who is misinterpreting sources. Just look at them, please. Also, could you please declare regarding this? Thanks. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Your policy is to always bring up the discussion where it is clear that your POV on Montenegro is a cause of all evils. I will not even look at it.

Regarding editing of this image/file and other topics we can discuss about. Sources are not misinterpreted. You are the one whose POV is clouding the discussion and your POV is the main reason for this discussion. Golden/yellow eagles have existed in Montenegrin flag history and these file from official sources do testify for the validity of this particular image/file.

Where is Panonian? Are you still best friends? I couldn't belive that there are still young people in Serbia who are focused like you in clear POV of Serbia towards Montenegro and Montenegrins. Schade. -- Imbris (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Accusing each other for POV will get us nowhere.

ALL sources state that the bisephalic eagle was white - you are just misinterpreting a photograph and improvising by changing the color of the flag. Are you actually aware of that?

A user from Montenegro also disagrees with you. And this, pardon me but paranoia, is neither helpful to me, nor you. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference being that you accuse for POV without any sources that such offence happened.

It is clear that you have some misconceptions about the Montenegrin Nation. This is a nation that exists and nothing can change that, its symbols are official and historical. It is not helpful that you continue to claim that no golden/yellow eagle ever existed on a Montenegrin flag.

Also your bringing of users to state their POV which (no coincedence) is the same variety as your own is not helping to solve the discussion.

Imbris (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Offenses are unjustifiable, no matter what. In addition to that, a total of seven sources has been supplemented to you. This is not a mere offense - this is a very outrageous claim. Does this mean that you perhaps admit that you're wrong? :)

I claim this because I have at least some basic knowledge about Montenegro, which (obviously) sadly you do not. This has nothing to do with anything you insinuate. This has got do with:

1. Truth

2. Verifiability

Your unsourced claims miss both these points. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You have not sourced your claims of POV happening in this case. You have only proven your belif system which claims without sources from the past (not todays political and nationalistic sources) that in the history of the Montenegrin flag there was not ever golden/yellow eagle on the flag of Montenegro (of any kind).

This is clear POV and your claims of "knowledge" are funny and demeening of my person, but what can we do your offences cannot stick on me (they only reflect you). Your expertise is not history it is your hobby, your user page clearly indicate that computers is your choice.

The honourable members of the Parliament of Montenegro have decided looking at the history of Montenegro that there have been flags with golden/yellow eagles in the history of the flag of Montenegro.

Also your insinuations are only just what the word says - insinuations.

Imbris (talk) 22:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to continue this uncivil bickering from your part, I just want to hear sources. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You have received sources under the second headline

What do you expect more. I will not be bothered by your attempts of starting a name calling war but this is reaching every limit. Stop your unsupstantiated claims that there has not ever in the history of Montenegro (flag) been golden/yellow double headed eagle. Danilo could have seen it from Russian diplomats and Nikola certainly from Russian tzars. -- Imbris (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

For the last time, there is no source whatsoever. I can't let you conduct OR. My claim is backed by FoTW, Markus, Government of Montenegro, National Museum of Montenegro, countless other and every non-you Wikipedian in here. Now please - either present sources (any at all!), or just abandon your claim. This is not a content dispute, but you're trying to endorse this without any source whatsoever, so I will be reverting to the real original version.

P.S. Please do not hypothesize like you did in the last sentence (Danilo could have seen it from Russian diplomats and Nikola certainly from Russian tzars.). This reminds me of the moment you claimed (Is the goal-keeper dressed in pink or what. I think that this has to do with my current issue of the Prince Danilo Flag. -- Imbris (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)) that the actual color of a football goal keeper today had something to do with Danilo's flag from the mid 19th century, even regardless that your claim is violet and not pink. Danil just removed the cross and replaced it with his personal coat of arms, a white double-headed eagle, in national-romantic remniscence to the Serbian Empire. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 08:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

You have none of the sources you claim. -- Imbris (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

What are you referring to? Are you actually saying that one needs sources to disprove another's claims, before that one backs them up? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

---

{{quote|blatant hoax of mr. Pax. Sources very well known and listed. Also his attempt to portray this as a OR are null and void. His version is POV and not neutral. It is a very dubious biased way of thinking|20px|20px|[[User:Imbris|13:30, 2 April 2008}}

How can removing blatant original research be a hoax? Of the very well known sources, not one can I see - nor they are listed at all. Our (me and other users') version, unlike Imbris' one, is sourced. If you think obeying Wikipedia's policies is POV and biased - I recommend a refresher course. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not OR this is history. -- Imbris (talk) 23:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

..and on what you base that? Is there anything at all to confirm that this is not your own personal violation of Wikipedia:No original research? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

You haven't produced anything which would in any way affect the sources I produced for your pleasure. It is up to you to disprove sources if you have additional ones (prefferably not BG ones) because you haven't got any you started wild accusations of OR. Not only that but you started to refer to some institutions and persons for which you haven't got any sources to do so. If you had sources then you would quote them. Or? -- Imbris (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What sources?

That's precisely what I'm claiming - so far you have had a lot time to present sources, and you didn't. That's a clear violation of Wikipedia:No original research. On the other hand this contradicts to my knowledge, that of other Wikipedians (including Montenegrin ones), the Flags of the World website which you call upon, the National Museum of Cetinje, Markus' book, as well as countless other depictions.

Are you saying that I can jump in, change the Flag of Bulgaria to an all Red with black lion one - and then attack you like that when you accuse me for OR, also refusing to support any source whatsoever to back up my claim? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)