Talk:Pretzel

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[edit] bush choking on a pretzel

The below was removed by User:Daniel Quinlan with the comment "Bush choking on a pretzel is not encyclopediac". I was not the one who first put reference to the incident here, but I'm not sure I agree that it's inclusion is inappropriate. Googling for "Bush Pretzel" gets over 17,000 hits; the event certainly became a known pop-culture reference. As I've often had to decypher old pop-culture references from historic materials of eras I'm too young to remember, I personally would find explantions of such potentially usefull in a project as wide and deep as Wikipedia aspires to be. I'll let others decide if this merits inclusion in the article; in the meantime, I moved the former text here to talk. -- Infrogmation 01:01, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

On 13 January 2002, US President George W. Bush choked on a pretzel and fainted, causing worry. He recovered almost immediately with only a minor bruise from falling off a couch. The event was much commented on by satirists and late night talk show hosts.

External Links

I don't think this sort of reference is really appropriate here. The web search for "George Bush Pretzel" only returns 9,070 hits and aside from a few articles and late-night jokes shortly after the incident (which did happen), it looks like all of the references are on extremely anti-Bush pages. I have a similar concern about the reference to Bill Clinton on the Rimming page. Let's just say I'm more of an expert on Pretzels, so I only made a Talk comment on that page. Both seem like simple cases of people peppering Wikipedia with political low blows about politicians. If the page had a significant list of "pretzel incidents" or "pretzels in the news", then I think it would fit in. As it was, especially considering that both this and the Rimming article are so short, they both seem like low blow POV content. Daniel Quinlan 01:28, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
Huh? Why google for "George Bush Pretzel"? Googling "Bush pretzel" gives about 103,000 hits today. Many of these references were probably created in the last year and half due to the 2004 U.S. presidential campaign, but I think it's notable trivia that the pretzel is probably the only snack food to ever have nearly killed a U.S. president.
I was wondering if this debate was still open. If I remember correctly there was a lot of attention on pretzels due to this very incident in International media at that time. Some newspapers in Europe apparently explained in detail what a pretzel is. Personally, the first time I heard about a pretzel was during this incident. In some ways one could even say that this incident made pretzels "noteworthy/newsworthy". Shouldn't we include this bet then? Gingerjoos (talk) 13:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

2bad that sob didnt die on that pretzel. that would be hella funny.24.144.137.244 17:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

>>When did Dick Cheney open a pretzel company?

[edit] image

Image:Pretzel.PNG

The image shown here has been listed on Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion with the claim it was obsoleted by the image now on the page yet the image now on the page does not really show you what a pretsel is just how they are sold. Plugwash 03:05, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


In my opinion, this article is missing a mentioning of pretzel variations, like "Yoghurt pretzels" and the like... -- Mnolf 13:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Say what?

Pretzels are traditionally about the size of a standard cookie. ... What the heck is a "standard" cookie? I'm also surprised that there's so little to be said about something as common and everday as a pretzel. -- WikidSmaht 23:47, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Most people believe the pretzel was actually invented by the Native Americans... ...The truth behind this can't be proven... ... I've never heard this one - I'd have thought the Jewish/German provenance to be much more certain, especially given the similarities between pretzels and bagels. If speculation is the game then why not assume that the refrigerator was also developed by Native Americans, as a means for keeping their pretzels fresh?

[edit] Pretzel history

Taken from the book 'History of Science and Technology' (au: Bryan Bunch with Alexander Hellemans) has it that- "An italian monk invents prezels as a reward to children who learn their prayers. He calls the strips of baked dough, folded to resemble arms crossing the breast, prestiola ("little reward").

Could we possibly get more on this? The article currently says:
One documented account taken from the book History of Science and Technology (by Bryan Bunch, with Alexander Hellemans) has it that in 210 A.D., "an Italian monk invents pretzels as a reward to children who learn their prayers. He calls the strips of baked dough, folded to resemble arms crossing the chest, pretiolum ("little reward")."
If one googles around, it's possible to find other citations of this source, some of which give the slightly more plausible date of 610. But on what basis do Bunch and Hellemans give any date at all? This claim is awfully specific, and I'd like to know what their source on this is.
I've been working on la:Panis quadragesimalis, the Latin version of this article. It turns out that there are attestations of bracellus and its variants as the name of a cake, starting from the 12th century, and apparently none at all for pretiolum (There is no entry at all for the word in the impressively complete lexicon of Du Cange, not even in the meaning of "little prize"). If Bunch and Alexander can lead us to a legitimate primary source, I would be very interested.
It is interesting how the first Latin attestations for bracellus, the Hortus Deliciarum illustration, and the first bakery emblems all seem to occur in the 12th century. This seems to lend credence to the theory that the pretzel was invented in the Middle Ages. Most of the evidence I've seen presented that it was invented by the Romans has been rather shaky (though I have a pet theory about the Sabine lixula cake... ;) ).
I'm currently travelling abroad, so I can't possibly look for History of Science and Technology. Does anyone else here have easy access to that book? --Iustinus 16:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I' ve checked the book, and made some changes to the page. No source is given for that specific entry, however, in the "Further Reading" section, two sources on Food and Agriculture are given:
  • Fruit: An Illustrated History. Peter Blackburne-Maze. Firefly. 2003.
  • A History of Food. Maguelonne Toussain-Samat (tr. Anthea Bell). Blackwell Reference. 1992
Perhaps if I look up that latter source I can find out where Bunch and Hellemans got this information. --Iustinus 18:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record: I corrected the spelling of "Pretzel" in reference to northern Germany. I am from northern Germany, and certainly we do not call them "Pretzel". Actually, no-one in Germany calls them "Pretzel". Nowhere. Never-ever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.55.15.190 (talk) 15:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Stats?

The average amount of pretzel per american is mentioned two times, one being 1.75 pounds and the other being 2 pounds, which is it?

[edit] Portal

Hi. Please refrain from spamming the Philadelphia portal template on articles that are only tangentially related to the city. While it's acceptable to use on articles relating directly to the city, putting it on articles like Pretzel, Hoagie, and Stromboli is taking things too far. Thanks. - EurekaLott 04:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I really want to assume good faith about your post, so before I take offense at your use of the word spam I am going to post my justification. The article is listed under Category:Philadelphia cuisine, and features Philadelphia in the article. Philadelphia is an eating-town. The portal is appropriate. --South Philly 13:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Earliest depictions

Not the earliest depiction of a pretzel?
Not the earliest depiction of a pretzel?

I added Image:Hortus Deliciarum 1190.jpg, which I imported from the Spanish wikipedia. There it is claimed that this is the earliest known depiction of the pretzel. However, several websites claim that the Vatican Library has a 5th century manuscript of Virgil with a pretzel illustration, Codex no. 3867. Of course even in this day and age, most of the Vatican Library is NOT available online. Anyone have any idea how to track down this reference? --Iustinus 05:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

AHA! Codex 3867 is the manuscript known as Vergilius Romanus. But googling around for illustrations from that codex, I have yet to find the pretzel. Anyone have more luck? --Iustinus 06:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've got it. According to this site and this one, the illustration in question is Image:VergiliusRomanusFolio100v.gif. I'd hardly call that conclusive. But this illustration does seem to be mentioned in several discussions of the history of the pretzel: do you think it merrits metnion in this article, just on that basis? I'm undecided, myself. --Iustinus 19:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you spot the pretzel in this picture? ;)
Can you spot the pretzel in this picture? ;)


[edit] good?

"Soft pretzels are good and traditional." This is not very becoming of an encyclopedia.


[edit] Pretzel = Pretzel

"Telephone books in the U.S. and other historical records from the early 1940's show that the Pretzel was there often referred to as the "Pretzel"" - Really? Sixty years ago we called pretzels pretzels. How is this worthy of mentioning? Adtroy 17:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the original text said that old phonebooks said "bretzel." --Iustinus 01:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The official term for Pretzel is Brezel

This is the word which can be found in the german wikipedia

But this is the English wikipedia, and English speakers for all practical purposes never call it that. Just like German speakers like to call cellphones handys, an allegedly English word, even though English speakers don't use it. Just because "handy" would be wrong in English doesn't mean German speakers shouldn't say it. --Iustinus 15:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frequent vandalism

This article suffers both from frequent vandalism by anons, and registered editors missing out on reverting it. I suggest a request for permanent semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. -- Matthead discuß!     O       15:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pretzel lye wash: Needs clarification

The article says that pretzels are dunked in lye. In practice sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide (lye's cousin) are used. before baking. I'm not disputing this, but I really think that section needs an additional mention that the lye in question is a *diluted*, food-grade lye solution/.More importantly, it needs to state the actual lye content in that solution. I'm guessing it must be a weak solution; between 0.1% and 3%, but I'm not certain, so I won't add it myself.

The reason I suggest this is, it's quite possible that some poor soul attempting to make soft pretzels could be unaware of the dangers of lye, and might use solid, non-food-grade, or a strong solution of lye, with the upshot being a trip to the emergency room, or worst case, the morgue. Can someone who knows add the specifics of what percentage the lye solution typically is? Or, at least post it here? 97.82.247.200 19:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More detail on production and physics

I notice that this article lacks any detailed description of how the different varieties of pretzel are made and what parts of those processes are responsible for their distinctive characteristics (both traditional and mass-manufactured varieties), somebody that knows about pretzels should add this information, as well as perhaps a few recipes. I found the bagel article to be much more informative. 67.180.206.34 08:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

This is true. Specifically, the point of the lye bath was to make the bread softer. Medieval breads were made with whole wheat which creates a hard thick crust after it cooled. It was so tough that well-to-do people ate the insides, and used the outside as a kind of edible plate (a "trencher"). Afterwards, these were given to the poor as alms. The bigger the loaf, the better. The lye process softened the outside so that little breads could be made and sold for hours during the upcoming day. Modern commercial whole-wheat bread are sprayed with an enzyme to prevent this problem. Recipes that say, "non-aluminum pan" date back to the days of lye, as baking soda does not harm it..... Baking soda is a recent culinary addition, and it is added to make the water boil vigorously. Unfortunately, this makes the water seem hotter than it is. Using a baking soda bath too soon leads to a soggy pretzel which absorbs too much water. The pretzel will be pale, lumpy instead of smooth, heavy instead of light, and taste foul because it soaked up baking soda..... It is better to place the formed pretzels on a cookie sheet dusted with baking soda than flour. Flour will make the hot bath unusably foamy...... Many modern recipes call for yeast, but most medieval recipes used no leavening or sourdough leavening. The pretzel process is similar to the bagel boil-and-then-bake, which uses no yeast because it is against orthodox Jewish 'kosher' food laws. In addition to giving breads a fluffy structure, yeast adds glutamate, which significantly improves the flavor, and many vitamins, including a form of vitamin D, an important nutrient if the diet does not include animal sources...... Perhaps one of the most delightful hidden aspects of the pretzel is its efficient use of the water and heat. While being boiled, it floats and must be flipped over midway through the process. It needs a certain width to be stable. A sphere is unstable. A patty shape is stable but does not cook evenly through to the middle. A ring is stable but leaves an unused space in the middle. Thus, with its Y-shaped central part, a traditional pretzel is a fairly optimal design...... What I truly would like to know is, is it necessary to have anything in the water at all? Can bagels be made with clean water?...... I know there are bagel recipes which use sugar or honey. Would anything reasonably easy to clean that provided sufficient solutes work? User: Talzhemir:Talzhemir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.15.94 (talk) 03:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
An update on baking soda: I asked a friend (named Nash) who's a professional chef with a specialty of baking. He says the main purpose of both lye and baking soda is as a "dough conditioner". It makes the dough more elastic, and softer after it's baked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talzhemir (talk • contribs) 22:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] National Pretzel day?

Seems kinda unlikely. - Denimadept (talk) 06:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What date would that be-- January 13? User Talzhemir:Talzhemir —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talzhemir (talk • contribs) 23:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I forget, look at the article. I'm questioning the edit. - Denimadept (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Nevermind, someone removed it. - Denimadept (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)