Talk:Preterism

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[edit] Second Coming

I was wondering if there might not should be some clarification noted on the Full Preterist section on the Second Coming. Of the full Preterist that I know, I do not know of any that believe that the Second Coming that happened in 70 AD was the Rapture. Since it links to a aritcle on the Rapture, it appears that the second coming in 70 AD was the Rapture, rather than just a coming in judgement.

Jerry Moon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revelationist (talk • contribs) 15:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Links

Virgil I think you are correct that the sub-links (many of which I put up, being ignorant of the Wiki guidelines) need to go. For instance, on the ones I put up such as Darth Gill, Sharon Beverly and the like are already indexed on my site - so that is a master reference for sites such as that. I really do think we all need to agree on just few representative sites to list realizing that not all of views will be directly represented (i.e. in my case, I don't exactly represent the hyperpreterists who disagree with me on the heresy issue, but the fact still is, mine is the largest site, meaning site with the most material, focused exclusively on partial preterism nearly alone without large section dedicated to soteriology or other issues). If another site comes along that is in direct competition to what I provide, mine wouldn't have that position. Though Todd is no longer a full preterist, just by virtue of the articles and debates he has, his site does promote full preterism. That may change in the future, but right now that is the case. PlanetPreterist more geared towards articles (which are geared in a different perspective) but it generates discussion that seems to me to include more traditional full preterists.

If there are arguments to include different sites, or simply to have no links at all, I would love to hear them. It is back to the work week for me, I will likely once again disappear for a while.

Roderick, I am glad I didn't offend you. I don't want anyone to think I am disparaging or trying to exclude their site - I think I am trying to point out some dispassionate reasons for a few that might be included. I am open to hear flaws in my reasoning.

Dee Dee Warren 13:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


Judging by most of the comments here and by visiting some of the links provided in the article, it looks to me like ALL of the links are in violation of using this site as a soapbox. Some of the things Roderick E has said toe the line of violating the WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. I stand by my previous comment and say that all links should be removed unless they are used in a bibliographical sense.

Charleca 14:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Charleca - you are baffling to me. You have not provided any substantion that leaving a few prominent links is "soapboxing." I have perused many Wiki articles, and having a few reference links is extraordinarily common. Additinally, ALL of the informatoin in this article (written almost entirely by myself and Mike Beidler) WAS drawn from information in the three sites I recommended - they ARE source information. Also, I have a request to ask - your bringing up of Roderick to me served no purpose. I have not supported anyone in this discussion, not Roderick, not Virgil. I am trying to faciliate discussion and have us all put the personal attacks and personalities aside. You seem to use a comment to me to get in a jab at Roderick, and I don't appreciate that. My comments had nothing to do with that. And if Roderick makes any comments to me to get a jab in at Virgil, I also don't want anything to do with that. We have to take here in a dispassionate sense if at all possible. Hyper-linking to Roderick's name in an irrelevant fashion like that isn't helpful. Just as I don't think bringing up past issues in this discussion about Virgil by Roderick is helpful. Virgil and I have had pesonal discussions regarding a lot of our past confrontations, and they are history to both of us, and I for one don't wish to dredge up the past, nor have a war of personalities here. We already have very strong and upsetting positions on some things, let us strive to keep the personalities out of it.

Dee Dee Warren 17:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I apologise. I didn't mean to associate you with Roderick E. I just lumped my concerns with what I see into one response. I'll try to avoid doing that in the future.
As for the links, in my view, if they are not used as a citation, then it is an advertisement for the site. Without diving deep into the contents, it looks like Todd's web site is the closest to the NPOV we are looking for. Virgil's looks like a collection of submitted articles that may or may not have something to do with the subject (only a few relavent "What Is" links on the side). Yours caught my attention at the start with "100% Certified Heresy-Free."
I have no problem at all with displaying a link to web site if, and only if, it was used to quote facts about a particular subject. But, I'm under the impression that all facts on any of these web sites were probably gleaned from other disinterested sources.
Charleca 18:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Charleca, just wanted to let you know I would be gone for a bit, but I don't like delaying in accepting an apology. I will be able to discuss your other points likely this weekend.

199.72.65.130 18:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

okay I am back to battle political correctness again for one more day [smile].

>>I apologise. I didn't mean to associate you with Roderick E. I just lumped my concerns with what I see into one response. I'll try to avoid doing that in the future.>>>

As I said before, apology accepted. I do not mind being associated with Roderick if we're talking about the same thing it was just out of place in a comment to me but I understand that you were just trying to get all of your points in in one point and did not mean to imply that they all related to me. No problem.

>>As for the links, in my view, if they are not used as a citation, then it is an advertisement for the site.>>

But that is not how they are used elsewhere on Wikipedia. It is very typical to give up to three links simply for further information. I and Mike Beidler, the primary authors of the original article, drew heavily on existing preterist material. In order to avoid "advertising" any one particular site, we avoided making any biographical references but generalized our material. I could easily make my site a biographical reference and all that would happen is that everybody could make their site a biographical reference. This is what is called following the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law and is in my view silly and not what is typically seen on Wikipedia.

>>Without diving deep into the contents, it looks like Todd's web site is the closest to the NPOV>>>

 Sites are not required to have a neutral point of view.  Only articles on Wikipedia are.  The real world on real subjects is not neutral.  Todd is not neutral.  Todd is a human being and inevitably will present either through format or article selection things that are closer to his point of view.  This is just the facts.  References for further information or to do just that give further information, not promote a spin, whether that's been be sanitized or overly biased, to any one point.  most of the discussions on this page I have found do not really completely understand the wiki policy of NPOV, and factors one at it done appealing to "bias" that demonstrates this, I just do not have the time to deal with at this point.  However with these articles if they are the major references to the various points of view (and we can make no mistake about it there are points of view presented with in the article but presented, and not advocated, that does not mean the sites of owners who hold these pointy views do not advocate for them, this is very very important to understand here) and therefore legitimate references.  The three sites that I suggested are the three major sites to get reference material on all the points of view presented.

>> Virgil's looks like a collection of submitted articles that may or may not have something to do with the subject (only a few relavent "What Is" links on the side).>>>

I would disagree.  Nearly 90% of Virgil's site has to do with the subject at hand with the other percentage being related.  Now I disagree with nearly everything upon Virgil's site, and I think it is slanted towards his point of view, but that is its purpose and it is the major reference for his point of view as well as those who were opposing his point of view within his own framework (i.e. full preterism).

>> Yours caught my attention at the start with "100% Certified Heresy-Free.">>

So? It is a perspective that is presented in the article that many if not most Christians would consider hyper-preterism heresy. One cannot sanitize that utterly. It's therefore my society is a valid representation of a majority view. A majority view cannot be silent simply because some people don't like it. I don't like full preterism, I can't say that a link to a full preterist sites on an article that talks about full preterism is invalid because it advocates for full preterism. This is political correctness completely imploding upon itself. No doubt, my site advocates against full preterism, but the article mentions that this is something that happens, and there is without a doubt, by Virgil, Roderick, or Todd, or I would daresay nearly anyone in this community that my site is the foremost site doing that work. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone agrees with the contents but whether it is a legitimate, major, and relevant resource. The three sites that I suggested are.

Also as I've said before, this isn't buttering my bread. I went back through my link tracking program and saw that I had a whopping total of two hits from this wiki article in the past 30 days. One of those hits was likely from me making sure my link worked. No one is getting any great advertising out of this, though potentially if there were fewer links readers wouldn't be so intimidated and we check out the resources more readily having only three to choose from rather than 10, 000, that remains to be seen. However I believe what I have presented is reasonable and I think I can say with some reasonable certainty that it would be supported by Virgil and Todd, Mike Beidler, and and perhaps to some degree by Roderick though I've conversed with none of them personally on this.

If my tone in this response seems combative, it is not intended to be as it is so easy for things to escalate on wiki. If you would rather discuss this with me first by e-mail to see if we can come to some sort of consensus (this invitation is open to all) that at least would be quicker for me because I tend to answer e-mail quicker than I visit this site. My e-mail address is preteristsite@gmail.com. Also if there are any funky spelling errors or nonsensical words in this post, I tried to proofread it, but I dictated it using a voice recognition program and sometimes it does somewhere thinks. Hope to talk to you soon.

Dee Dee Warren 13:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fleshy

An editor added the word "fleshy" in a way meant to be perjorative adding it as fact, rather than an opinion of fact. If the editor wishes to insert that, a NPOV way of doing so would be to say "physical body, which full preterists would state is 'fleshly'" instead of making one's opinion of someone definition a factual assertion.

Dee Dee Warren 18:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ActiveDiscuss

Are we all pretty much in agreement over the NPOV stuff and the generals of the article? If so, can we remove the ActiveDiscuss tag at the top of the article? --Virgil Vaduva 19:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Virgil - yes I think so. That was put there by the Wiki Admins back when things were unfortunately too heated. I am in agreement that it could be removed as I think we are all able to discuss things without getting too upset.

Dee Dee Warren 17:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on edits

Virgil - limiting it to some partial preterists (your last comment) seems to be ackward - for it is not only their position. Many outspoken persons aren't preterist at all.

With regards to the change Parousia 70 made - I have never met one full preterist meeting that description. While he might be able to round up a few, that is hardly any kind of substantial number to warrant an encyclopedia entry. That is the exact argument we made against Roderick's suggestion to include some other variations - right now it simply wasn't warranted. I do not think we can include this extreme minority and then not include Roderick's suggestions - thus, the article should stick with the basics IMHO.

65.8.107.9 12:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I have already removed Parousia70's change a day or two ago. As for Virgil's, my thought's were similar to yours, but I was having trouble thinking of a way to reword it. -- Charleca 13:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From that to thus

Dee Dee, someone contacted me with the concern that your most recent change replacing "that" to "thus" is "stating a conclusion regarding Full Preterism" rather than letting the reader decide. How about trying to rephrase the entire sentence? It currently states:

Naturally, their critics assert that the Resurrection has not happened and thus, the condemnation applies.

How about trying other versions and eliminating "naturally" and "thus?"


--Virgil Vaduva 18:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes I see that, you have a point there. Let me think on it and I will do it this weekend.

Dee Dee Warren 01:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reworked sentence - to Virgil

Virgil, I reworked the sentence. Is that one acceptable?

Dee Dee Warren 02:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Dee Dee, thanks a lot...I really appreciate your spirit and willingness to resolve those issues. :) --Virgil Vaduva 21:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Removing thekingdomcome.com

I'm removing my website link, this time permanently as I am disassociating from preterism. Preterism requires a strong dose of 1 Cor 11:19 "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." before I am willing to associate with it again. Thanks Roderick E 03:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Book List and Website List

Having consulted with some of the major contributors to this entry, I will be deleting the book list and website list in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. However, if a book or website is referenced within the text of the entry itself, feel free to create and add it to a Bibliography section. --Mike Beidler 02:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ohhh...clean, fresh air. :) --Virgil Vaduva 12:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Full Preterist Definition is WRONG and should not be assigned to 70AD

Your current definition of a Partial Preterist or a Full Preterist is TOO NARROW in focus and SHOULD NOT BE LINKED TO 70AD. It fails to classify those who believe all has been fulfilled like Samuel Lee who did not assigned all fulfillment to 70AD. Samuel Lee believed that the destruction of Pagan Rome completely fulfilled all prophecy. He did not look to the future and would fall in to a Full Preterist if the definition was not assigned to 70AD. If someone believes all prophecy has been fulfilled in the past, he is a Full Preterist. Maybe add a definition to include people like Samuel Lee and call them Full Preterist II (FP2)

We need to back up and define a Full Preterist as one who believes all things have been fulfilled and nothing is yet future, and define a Partial Preterist as one who believes some things have been fulfilled, and some things have not. The current definition is by no means good enough.

FULL Preterist MEANS all things have completely been fulfilled. Whether or not you see that fulfillment in the Cross, Pentecost, the Destruction of Jerusalem, or in the fall of Pagan Rome, it does not matter. If something is a Past event, it is past.

Please revise this definition. It is tooooooooo narrow in terms of classification.

Ls thomp 15:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


This may be partly true, but I think we're trying keep the definition to one that believes the "End of The Times" occured at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Normally a "preterist" wouldn't view it as any other time. - Charleca 16:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a misrepresentation of what the terms Full (Complete) Preterist (past fulfillment) means. It does not include those who do not assign all prophecy as being fulfilled in another period of time besides 70AD. I mentioned Samuel Lee who was one of the greatest scholars of Preteristic history yet he did not assign the complete fulfillment to 70AD. Just become it is not the norm does not mean that it can not be opened to classify these others who were also Preteristic in nature and did not believe there were things that remained unfulfilled. Ls thomp 21:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of this article is not to represent every single person that holds to some odd position regarding preterism, nor would that be possible since almost nobody agrees with everyone else in every minute detail regarding theology or prophecy. The definition of Full Preterism is fine the way it is in my opinion and should not be changed. It will only confuse readers more than it probably already does. --Virgil Vaduva 15:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree Virgil and that is consistent with the way other minor variants were handled. This is a general popular audience piece, not an exhaustive treatise.

Dee Dee Warren 20:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello, that is simply not under dispute by anyone even remotely credible. If you check a page that even would be anti-thetical to my views, www.preteristarchive.com - they concede that. Using the term "historical preterism" instead of partial preterism he states (see last sentence):

  HISTORICAL PRETERISM (HP) - A) Umbrella term covering the whole spectrum of partially fulfilled eschatology, including systems of Partial Preterism, Historicism, Catholicism, and earlier forms of Preterist-Idealism.  B) This class has roots dating back to the first century, and finds particular development in the writings of Justin Martyr and  Eusebius.    Today's contemporary "Partial Preterism" was primarily developed during the Reformation era in the hands of  Calvin,  Grotius and  Hammond, though the  Jesuit Alcazar is possibly the earliest to present a fully developed system.  C) Generally teaches that some Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD70 --  and perhaps during the subsequent millennia -- but will be ultimately fulfilled in the future "end of the world".  (Broadest Range in Time and Doctrine)

And describing "full preterism" as "modern preterism" he states (see last sentence):

MODERN PRETERISM (MP) - A) The whole spectrum of fully fulfilled eschatology,     including (but not limited to) Full Preterism, and recent systems of Preterist-Idealism.  B) According to known literature, this class did not emerge until the 19th century in the writings of  Samuel Lee, although it can be seen as the natural progression in theological development (particularly anticipated in "Theophany" by Early Church author  Eusebius).   C) Generally believes that all eschatology was fulfilled by AD70, or by the conversion by heathen Rome to Christianity, or by the supposed "fall of Islamic persecution of Christianity".  (Narrowest Range in Time and Doctrine - Only Known Representations of this View Are From 19th-21st Century)

I have numerous citations as well from what that implication is clearly drawn in my article http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/warrensemantics.html

In my article I quote Roderick Edwards (definitely not an ally) as well in saying - Full/Modern Preterism is derived from an earlier, less developed version, called "historic preterism"

Dee Dee Warren 14:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I see my comment placement might be confusing.... someone earlier asked for my support why I said partial preterism was historically prior... I should have inserted my comments there. Sorry :(

Dee Dee Warren 14:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


THEN HOW SHOULD THESE EXCEPTIONS BE CLASSIFIED IF THEY ARE NOT FULL PRETERISTS? They do not extend the fulfillment to the future but do not assign all fulfillment to 70AD. While it may be the norm, it certainly IS NOT a correct definition. These men are scholars with very high credentials. Samuel Lee and others blow any modern day scholar away. It is a very lititamate view that should be considered worthy of this classification. to say these don't matter shows idgnorance in these matters. It is certainly not from reviewing and investigating his views. It is very narrow minded IMOLs thomp 16:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

How should the exceptions should be classified? Who cares and why should be classified at all? A reader searching to learn about Preterism has no interest in knowing what every preterist on the planet believes regarding any given topic under the sun. Did you read what was said above by three or four people? This article is not an exhaustive treatise on the topic of Preterism or a list of what every full preterist in this world believes about AD 70. It's a GENERAL description of the position, presenting the definitions as they are perceived by a majority of contributors. --Virgil Vaduva 17:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minutae in variations

I agree fully with Virgil.

Dee Dee Warren 00:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] please include some mention of double fulfillment

It would seem appropriate to have some mention of the notion or concept of "double fulfillment or double reference" in an article on partial or full preterism. Prophetic mention of the "abomination of desolation" has more than one reference in the Jewish mind. They were all aware of Antiochus Epiphanies. There is the prophetic reference to Titus. Could there be one yet to come? I'm sure that there are many theologians adopting some combination of the preterist and futurist viewpoints, immediate predictions that will be echoed in the end times. 209.191.208.162 10:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of Preterism

Would it be possible to list a history of Preterist thought and perhaps who held such views? Minguo

[edit] Preterism versus Historicism

The article claims:

'Expositors of the traditional protestant interpretation of Revelation known as historicism have always maintained that Revelation was written in AD 96 and not AD 70.'

This isn't true. Over the centuries Historicists have accepted both dates. It was only as a result of Praterism emerging in the 17th century that the early date started to be rejected by Historicists, in order to remove support for the Praeterist position. As late as 1727 Sir Isaac Newton had argued that Revelation was written during the persecutions of Nero, but by the mid-19th century this theory was being completely dismissed, and Elliott’s description of it as ‘the baseless presumption of a Neronic date’ (Horae Apocalypticae, volume IV, 5th edition 1862), was typical of the later Historicist attitude generally expressed. Still, even at this time there were Historicists who believed in an early date. --Taiwan boi (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Removals

I'm really being caught off guard by the continual removal of several citations. Far from trying to advance some POV from any website, I was simply showing that there are known Partial Preterist writings that date back to the 2nd and 3rd century. This isn't disputable. I rightly edited the sentence about Church fathers to refer only to Eusebius. I did this out of respect for the quantity and substance of his content. Eusebius' writings are not necessarily the oldest of the Partial Preterist, but they're known to be the most concise and easily accessible.

Can someone also explain why the citation of Townley's Full Preterist book was removed? I can't find anything discussing it in the Talk Page. Can any earlier work be provided, that holds to a well-formed Full Preterist view, and not just bits and pieces of it? Please provide this as a reference if it is available.

Why, as well, are any references to Full Preterism's willingness to reject Creeds being removed? I'd like to know what will suffice as a citation for this? While these are POV articles I've been linking to, this claim has to be substantiated with a POV article, as the debate is mainly taking place on the internet.

I'm wondering about these types of citations. As far as Wikipedia's policy is concerned, I don't understand how anyone can view these as violations.

Thank you in advance.

Mise-en-page (talk) 20:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Eusebius was a full preterist, not a partial preterist. Rather than making a general statement about this, I recommend including full quotes referencing what you are trying to communicate. I also fail to see what a historic reference to a 2nd or 3rd century has to do with either full or partial preterism or what value it bring to the article itself. We are not talking about the history of either one. The goal of the article is to define it and explain it to a reader. --Virgil Vaduva (talk) 21:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
On what basis can Eusebius be called a Full Preterist? In his Proof of the Gospel, Eusebius wrote that the latter part of Isaiah 66:18-19 refers to "His second glorious Advent, when all nations shall see His glory, and when He comes in the heavens with power and great glory" (see 6.25) And also: "The prophecies about the Christ should be divided, as our investigation of the facts shews, into two classes: the first which are the more human and gloomy will be agreed to have been fulfilled at His first Coming, the second the more glorious and divine EVEN NOW await His second Coming for their fulfilment" (see 4.16).
I'm sorry, but this is not Full Preterism. Do you have any references that show Eusebius holding to Full Preterism? I just can't believe what you're saying.
Anyway, I do think the historicity matters, because preterism is a view that a large number of earlier commentators held to. If something has a grounded history, it tends not to be a crock. So why is talking about this history unimportant?
Mise-en-page (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies. The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." - Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, Book VIII
Let's all do our homework before we present inaccurate information to readers; if not, your inaccurate references will be deleted, not just by me, but any other editor here. --Virgil Vaduva (talk) 15:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm perfectly okay with doing the homework, and working to support any claims made in this article with the most specific citations. I agree and would maintain that all of us need to do so.
Now, unfortunately, you still haven't established clearly that Eusebius was holding to Full Preterism. Eusebius is still only talking about the First Coming of the Messiah here:
"You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (St. Eusebius: Demonstratio Evangelica [Proof of the Gospel]; Book VI - Chapter 13)
At this point, the burden only lies on you. I've already demonstrated that Eusebius saw the Second Coming (which means that glorious, final one on the Last Day; not the one in judgment against apostate Israel) as still future even in his time. Every idea he's talking about in what you've quoted is also contained in the Book of Hebrews. And it's in Jeremiah 31, as well as most of Zechariah and Malachi. These were just Messianic expectations, which sometimes went against what the Jews perceived, and which were absolutely fulfilled once Messiah came and even more so within the generation that followed. But it's only concerning the emergence of a new faith in Christ which would trump the Jewish temple system and its remaining nationalism. That's not Full Preterism, because he is saying nothing about the Final Judgment or the Final Resurrection having already occurred.
How old is Partial Preterism? How old is Full Preterism? That's all I'm trying to establish. We'd be talking about the same information concerning Dispensationalism, so why not Preterism? It's not a big deal.
Mise-en-page (talk) 16:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
And, again, what about Robert Townley's Full Preterist book "The Second Advent of Jesus Christ: A Past Event"? Is this obscure in any sense? On what other basis can a concise Consistent Preterist book like that be removed? It just hasn't been touched on.
What of Full Preterism and the eucemenical creeds, too? I think that's an important aspect of this because it is a huge distinction between the two views. What was wrong with the sources for that? One source was Sproul's book, for goodness sake. Let's be honest.
Mise-en-page (talk) 16:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reminder on references

Mise-en-page - You are apparently under the impression that I am here to debate the merits of preterism (full or partial). I am not; this is not a place to debate theology, creeds of personal opinions. This is a place to write a relevant article on the study of fulfilled prophecy. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question."

Specifically, "self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable" - Per WP:SPS, every single reference you provided initially failed the litmus test. Please, no blogs, no forums comments, no obscure references from websites that nobody ever heard of.

This is not the first time we had this debate here and I honestly am not going to spend my time arguing with you the merits of eschatology. I already provided references and challenges to your assertions and I restored the article to its original state pre-Eusebius modifications. If you want to present Eusebius in a general light and provide quotes from him about his eschatological work, I do not personally believe this is the place to do so. Again, this is an article about Preterism, and I would love to work with you to improve it as necessary. --Virgil Vaduva (talk) 17:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Virgil, I appreciate your response and I do understand where you're coming from. My only contention was there are parts of the article that can be improved with a little more background and some relevant cites. We might let this sit for a while. Nothing is desperately needed at this point.
I should say that I'm not interested in a debate, but I haven't percieved you to be either. It was only that I saw your labeling of Eusebius as "Full Preterist" as incorrect. On the contrary, he appeared to me to be very relevant to the topic, and he at least places a date on one side of the Preterist camp. I wanted to understand where you were coming from, because this appeared to be your only basis for not wanting to cite his writing as being early Partial. I'm sorry for that misunderstanding and I'm glad we could work it out by referring back to our established ground rules.
In any instance, it's true that we should be keeping this entry as basic as possible. No problems there. We'll discuss it over time as issues get brought up. Mise-en-page (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree and I will try to work with you and everyone else to improve the article; it needs it and right now all the missing citation tags need to be resolved one way or another. Our disagreement over Eusebius illustrates the bigger problem we have here: the issue is not cut and dry over the history of Preterism, so it makes development of the article (if we decide to tackle the history of it) even more difficult. On the other hand, if we are only dealing with the basics of what Preterism is, then I personally do not think it is necessary to go over the historical aspects of it. Perhaps other editors can chime in about this? --Virgil Vaduva (talk) 19:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I've done some work on the references. Let me know if there are any issues. --Taiwan boi (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)