Talk:Presque Isle State Park

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Featured article star Presque Isle State Park is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
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Ruhrfisch (talk • contribs • email)  Dincher (talk · contribs)  Dtbohrer (talk · contribs)
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Contents

[edit] Stub

I don't think this article is a stub any longer. Has a good coverage thanks to previous contributions. I made some edits on the tone of the language, though. Sounded like a brochure, not an encyclopedia article, and was definitely as violation of WP:NPOV.Tomcool 02:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perry Monument

The Battle of Lake Erie makes mention, and includes a photo of, the Perry Monument at Put-In-Bay, but not similar info or links for the Perry Monument at Presque Isle State Park. If anybody is actually editing this page, you might want to take care of that. MikeyTheK 15:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If this is the photo you're refering to (Image:Perrymem2.JPG), it is of the Perry Monument on Presque Isle, not the one in Put-in-Bay (although I must admit I do see how they could be confused). --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 17:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sand replenishment

Does anyone else feel that the sand replenishment efforts should be mentioned? This news blurb got me thinking about it... --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 04:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You could discuss beach nourishment and/or coastal management in the geology section where sand is already discussed briefly. You could also consider discussing erosion and replenishment in the Lake Erie Watershed (Pennsylvania) article's section on Presque Isle Watershed. A worthy topic, but the Nature vs Recreation aspects can be political and have to be dealt with in a sensitive manner. --Pat 07:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

This article is a good start, but it needs definite improvements.

  • History section:Some parts have sources, others do not [the daughter article does not have the relevant sources]
  • Habitat section:First para has no sources. At the moment, the two paras are quire short and could be easily merged.
  • Geology:Second para is unsourced and very short.
  • Recreation:The first sentence is POV (“countless”) and reads like marketing. It is also unsourced. Some of the subsections could probably have their headers removed and some of the paragraphs could be merged as they are currently short. The section is unsourced and the bolding of the emergency information is inappropriate since WP is not supposed to be a warning pamphlet.

Apart from that the prose/pictures/NPOV seems to be OK. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

    • Recreation changes countless is gone, subsections have been condensed, bolded warning gone, sources coming soon. it's been referenced Dincher 00:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Habitat changes The first paragraph has been referenced. Dincher 00:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Geology changes It is now sourced. Dincher 00:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • History changes Ref for the Coast Guard section added. Dincher 00:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map needed

I am working on a map for the article per the FAC request. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Here is the map - please I added it to the article. Feedback, comments, and suggestions welcome, Image:Presque Isle State Park Map.png Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Is it possible to add the location of the waterworks? -- Dincher (talk) 20:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Should be - I also need to add the marina pond and label it. May take me a day or two. Good suggestion - thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
        • I found the former waterworks and pools on the DCNR map and added them, also the marina pond and fixed the road around it (Census did not show the marina for some reason). Also resized the map (less of Erie and the Lake) and fixed the scale (used old scale- whoops). May have to WP:BYC to see it Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History ideas

I am working on expanding the history section per the FAC comment. How about combining the Coast Guard information and the Lighthouses section as a subsection in the history section? They are both from the 1800s and serve similar purposes (aiding naviagation on Lake Erie). I think maybe 4 subsections would work for history: Early inhabitants (Erielhonan and Iroquois), Forts and War of 1812 (French and British forts, Perry's 1812 stuff), Coast Guard and Lighthouses (1800s stuff), and State park and the modern era (waterworks, state park, 20th century and 21st). WHat do you all think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

All the recommendations sound good to me. I had deleted the subsections because I felt they may have been too short. As they are expanded I am all for recreating the subsections. -- Dincher (talk) 20:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, my expansion / rewrite of the history section is basically done - any feedback welcome. I tweaked the subsection titles a bit, but they are basically the same as above (some different word orders). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Long list of Flora and Fauna

I found this long list of plants and animals on Presque Isle, which thanks the assistant director of the state park for the information. Not sure I want to search through it all though. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:40, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Just checked all the birds names starting with "A". All rated Least Concern. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Also checked all "B" birds, except for two NT (Buff-breasted Sandpiper and Bell’s Vireo) all are LC. Sigh, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I will look through the list later this evening. Dincher (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Finished the list of birds. 1 Endangered, 3 Vulnerable, 5 Near Threatened and the rest are Least Concern. The Piping Plover is classified as EN. The Cerulean Warbler, Rusty Blackbird and the Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow are classified as VU. Also the Golden-winged Warbler, Henslow's Sparrow, Northern Bobwhite, Olive-sided Flycatcher, and the Red-headed Woodpecker are "NT". --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 19:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - that is a lot of work!! The Penn State ref has a fairly detailed explanation of the 6 habitat zones and ecological succession. I was going to expand Habitat using mostly that and a few other refs, similar to what I did with History. For some claims it may be best just to quote them directly, i.e. According to the DCNR, because it has so "many unique habitats, Presque Isle contains a greater number of the state's endangered, threatened and rare species than any other area of comparable size in Pennsylvania."[1] Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks from me too! The plans sound good. Dincher (talk) 00:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Waterworks

This section doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe it's just me but it seems awkward. Basins on the peninsula were used as reservoirs to hold water pumped in from Lake Erie: pollutants were allowed to settle to the bottom before flowing into the waterlines of the city. Does it sound like the pullutants are flowing into the waterlines or is it just me? I had reworded it to look like this Basins on the peninsula were used as reservoirs to hold water pumped in from Lake Erie. Sediments settled at the bottom of the basins before the water was pumped into the waterlines of the city. I don't really like this either. Thoughts? Or am I off base. Dincher (talk) 02:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Agreed it is a bit awkward. My experience is that water is usally allowed to settle (so sediments and other particulates settle / precipitate out) before it is further treated and pumped out. Often water is filtered through a sand bed to remove such stuff too (although this is not mentioned here). The two large basins make sense as settling pools. See Water purification article, especially sedimentation. The problem is that what little I know (thank you tour of the local water treatment plant years ago) and modern water techniques are not necessarily what they were doing on Presque Isle in 1908. I will reread it and the DCNR source (plus l ook for another Erie specific source) and try and tweak it. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Found this. [1] The text is way too small and tight for me to comfortably read right now. Perhaps I can tweak it from home, but can't here.Dincher (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

  • It was written in 1888, so 20 years before the waterworks was built there. I did find the year the third lightbouse was built and I think it is in the Waterworks ferry boat dock area. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I tweaked the waterworks section - is it better / clearer now? On to Habitat... Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article lead paragraphs

Since we are revising the article for FAC comments, I assumed we would go back and look at the lead last (after all else revised). We should expand it to three paragraphs per WP:MOS. I also wanted to discuss the rationale for removing the sentence "Presque Isle, which can be reached by automobile or boat, closes at dark and in certain winter months." from the lead paragraphs. The lead is supposed to summarize the article, these are true facts and in the article (Peninsula Drive, Marina, Erie Water Taxi). What is unencylcopedic (edit summary reason for removal)? I asked Trey, who made the edit, to reply here. I am in favor of including this information in the article. I think we should be focusing on expanding the article to meet the FAC comments / objections, not removing stuff. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I too am in favor of restoring the removed sentence to the lead and agree with building the lead into three paragraphs. Dincher (talk)

[edit] Tom Ridge Education Center

Per FAC conversation there is a problem with the section about Tom Ridge whatever it is. I propose that we just cut it out. It's not really part of the park and it is mentioned, briefly, further up in the article. Dincher (talk) 22:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I had thought of moving TREC into the Habitat section (after Gull Point). Subsection one talks about the 7 ecological zones and will end with man's role in the ecology of the park / peninsula. Subsection two will look at birs, flyway, endangered / threatened species and Gull Point Natural Area (allowing nature to take its course). Subsection three could be TREC, entrance to the park, a new focus on educating visitors about the environment. What do you think? Recreation would follow. Not sure if it would be better to have Geology between Habitat and Rec (where it is now) or before Habitat (might lead in nicely to shifting sand as the start of the 7 zones, would follow history too (and could tie into that - breaches of peninsula, Corps efforts to stabilize sand / peninsula). What do you all think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 00:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The plans for TERC sound good. I am going to be bold and move Geology now to between history and habitat. Dincher (talk) 00:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox pic

I switched two photos. I think that the pic of the beach is more interesting and specific to the park. It is the only "surf beach" in PA, the other pic could've been a pic of the bay, the lake, the peninsula, the city or the park. I won't fuss if somebody wants it switched back. Dincher (talk) 02:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sort of on the fence with this. I like the thought that the first picture people see is an image of the whole peninsula. But an image of the beach is understandable. Kinda wish the beach image was more recent (note the lack of breakwaters) and with less people (current picture reminds me of a travel brochure). I'm probably going to look for a better picture (maybe from Flickr). --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 03:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I added back in the aerial photo of Gull Point so that may complicate things (as now there are two aerial photos near the bottom of the article). I also like both images, either one is OK with me in the Geobox. Working on TREC next, History, Geology, Habitat are done - any comments welcome. Not sure if TREC will be a subsection of Habitat or its own section - need to read more on TREC. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I like the original picture. One reason is that the park is uniquely shaped and situated and the aerial view shows that - I know of no other place on Earth that looks like Presque Isle State Park does in that picture. You also see the whole park and bay at one glance, and even get some idea of the zones (beach, ponds, forest). Finally the picture now there, while nice, is both fairly generic (it could be almost any beach) and outdated (it is not what a Presque Isle beach looks like now - no breakwaters). I am still OK with either as the Geobox image, but am leaning towards the original aerial shot of the whole peninsula. Just my $0.02 Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It's back to the way it was. I agree with the discussion. Dincher (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References question

I am unable to access the Cyberlink, LP refs now - they are current number 7, 20, and 25. When I try to follow the link, it asks me for a login. I am fairly certain I have accessed these with no problem before, so I assume this is a temporary problem, but could someone else check these links to make sure? Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

That has to be a mistake on their part. The link on Google does the same thing. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 06:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem must be cleared up. I got right to the website without any problem. Dincher (talk) 20:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - it was still blocked very early this morning, but was better by about 6 hours ago. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review please

I have expanded and tweaked the article about as much as I can. We could add specific sepcies to the habitats (the Penn State ref has them) and go into a bit more detail on beaches (names and locations), but I am not sure either is needed. Other than that I think the body of the article is pretty much done. Could someone please look it over before I expand the lead to three paragraphs? I also have a couple of people I think I can get to look it over for copyedits. Hope what I did so far is OK, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

PS Here is a draft new lead:

Presque Isle State Park (pronounced IPA: /ˌprɛskˈʔaɪl/) is a 3,200-acre (12.95 km²) Pennsylvania state park on an arching sandy peninsula that juts out into Lake Erie, 4 miles (6 km) west of the city of Erie, in Millcreek Township, Erie County, Pennsylvania in the United States. The peninsula sweeps northeastward, surrounding Presque Isle Bay along the park's southern coast. It has some 13 miles (21 km) of roads, 21 miles (34 km) of recreational trails, thirteen beaches for swimming, and a marina. Popular activities at the park include swimming, boating, hiking, biking, and bird watching.

The recorded history of Presque Isle begins with the Erielhonan, a Native American tribe who gave their name to Lake Erie, and includes French, British, and American forts, as well as serving as a base for an Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry's fleet in the War of 1812. With the growing importance of shipping on Lake Erie in the 1800's, Presque Isle became home to several lighthouses and what became a Coast Guard station. In 1921 it became a state park, and as of 2007 it hosts over 4 million visitors per year, the most of any Pennsylvania state park.[1]

The Presque Isle peninsula formed on a moraine from the end of the Wisconsin glaciation and is constantly being reshaped by waves and wind. This leads to seven ecological zones within the park, which provide a classic example of ecological progression. A National Natural Landmark since 1967, the park has been named one of the best places in the US to watch birds, and protects them in its Gull Point State Park Natural Area. The new Tom Ridge Environmental Center at the entrance to the park allows visitors to learn more about the park and its ecology. Presque Isle State Park has been chosen by the Pennsylvania Bureau of Parks for its "Twenty Must-See Pennsylvania State Parks" list.

Not all wikilinked, but what do you think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me!Dincher (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proofreading

I began proofreading on Tuesday evening. My brain says it's time to stop for the night. I volunteer at a library on Wednesday mornings, but I plan to get back to this later on Wednesday. It looks great, and my tweaks are minor. Don't hesitate to undo any that you don't like. Finetooth (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the proofreading. It is greatly appreciated. Maybe I spelled everything correctly! Dincher (talk) 05:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Ditto on the thanks - the only thing I changed was "Erielhonen" to "Erielhonan", but then I thought fish sticks and fish stocks were the same thing, so what do I know? :-) Thanks again, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. All of my subsequent tweaks were minor. I made an error that shows up in the page history; I said I added two periods to citation 5, but it was citation 6. Good article, good graphics. Finetooth (talk) 00:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks so much - per the second support comment at FAC, I just removed eight sets of parentheses in first two History sections (hopefully not introducing any new errors in the process). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 10:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't think to look at the FAC comments, though that would have been a good idea. I agree with removing the parentheses. I used to insert lots of them in my work until another editor scowled at me and told me to cut it out. Commas are generally less disruptive to the prose flow, she said, and she was right. One other thing I noticed but didn't change were double-digit numbers like thirteen and fifty written out with letters in some places and written as 13 and 50 in others. I'd be glad to go back through and make them as consistent as I can if you have a preference one way or the other. I generally prefer one through nine and 10, 11, 12, etc. Exceptions must be made for multiple-digit numbers at the beginnings of sentences and sometimes elsewhere, I realize. Finetooth (talk) 17:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
That would be fine - thanks, also appreciate an eye on my () removals, thanks again Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Fixed the numbers, checked the parens and made minor tweaks. Replaced a few more parens with commas, and slightly rearranged a bit more of the prose. Also read the FAC comments and could find nothing more for a proofreader to get excited about. I'd be glad to assist further if needed. Finetooth (talk) 20:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Peninsula Park"?

I think we might need a source for the line:

"Presque Isle has also been referred to as "Peninsula Park".

I live in Erie and I've never heard Presque Isle called "Peninsula Park". Closest I've heard is it being known as "The Peninsula." --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 03:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Back when Dincher and I were working on the List of Pennsylvania state parks I emailed Presque Isle State Park to see if they knew when the name officially switched from the 1921 "Pennsylvania State Park at Erie" to today's "Presque Isle State Park". They wrote back nicely and said they did not know, but that the park was also known as the Peninsula and Peninsula State Park (unofficially). I am not able to consult my email archive right now, but I can by Monday. I believe it was a historic name (and it is mentioned in the list). I can also check Cupper's History (I have a copy) as I think it is in there too. I can do that in an hour or so, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. I figured it couldn't hurt to have a source for that. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 04:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
A quick look through Cupper's PA State Park History did not show it (also not the world's greatest index), but I did find it in a 1940 index of records at the PHMC here and on a postcard on eBay with that caption: here. The first source is more reliable, looks like it should read "Peninsula State Park". Then I realized the first source is the notes for the WPA Federal Writers' Project Guide to Pennsylvania, so it is in Google Books here. That is what I would cite. Good catch, thanks! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Penn State has the whole book online - here is the link. Click on Section 1 and search for Peninsula for the first mention of "Peninsula State Park". Good night! Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have added the Pennsylvania American Guide as a ref, with the page number of the first ref to it as "Peninsula State Park". I have the URL of the whole book, but I can't find a way to get the URL that links directly to that section (the Penn State Digital Library books are PDF, but oddly linked), so if someone else can get the direct URL to the first section where page xxviii is, please use that URL instead. Thanks again for pointing out the need for a ref here, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I changed the link to go directly to the pdf instead of having it inside the Penn State Digital Library window. Still can't get it to go to right section though, I'll get it eventually. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 23:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing that and all your work here - I'm just glad every ref wasn't this much work ;-) Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maintained template added

I have added the {{Maintained}} template to every Featured Article and List I have made major contributions to, and just did so here. I also know this article is the work of many and invite anyone who is interested to add their names too. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)