Talk:Premier of the Republic of China

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[edit] Name

[edit] Requested move

Premier of the Republic of China → President of the Executive Yuan (or Premier of Taiwan)

[edit] Discussion

I don't understand why anyone would oppose the move of this article to President of the Executive Yuan. I mean it's the official title. The current name is not even a common name, nor is it an official name. Since I know there will be a lot of objection to the move to Premier of Taiwan, I figured it would be best moved to President of the Executive Yuan, no?--Jerry 21:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

To me, the current name is even more confusing. Most people know this position by its common name Premier of Taiwan, and the current name is very different from its common name and people with no knowledge of the ROC/PRC issue will confuse this with the premier of the PRC.--Jerry 02:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is true that Premier of Taiwan is more common. But using Taiwan might cause some pov issue. Chris! _ct 02:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, that's why I proposed the move to President of the EY instead of the Premier of Taiwan.--Jerry 02:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily since we can have a disambiguation line like "Not to be confused with Premier of PRC" on top. Chris! _ct 02:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think the disambiguation line would be necessary if we just simply move the page...it might confuse foreign Wikipedians who have no knowledge on ROC into thinking that this is something else, it doesn't matter because we're moving it to the official name, you can have a whole section just talking about the name of the position but the title has to be either official or common, and if you think moving this article to premier of TW is overdoing common name conventions, isn't president of the EY the best name to move to?--Jerry 03:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really. I bet more editors will know what ROC is than editors who know what Executive Yuan is.Chris! _ct 03:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter (I don't think it does), because it's the official name, and we either use the official name or the common name.--Jerry 03:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That is why we should keep the current name. The current name is more common. We don't use official name here per WP:NC. Chris! _ct 03:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

We do use the official name. Why do you think President of the Executive Yuan would be confusing anyways? Do you expect Executive Yuan to be moved to Executive branch of the Republic of China?--Jerry 20:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

i am saying that using Executive Yuan as part of the title of this article is confusing. I never say that Executive Yuan should be moved to Executive branch of the Republic of China. Please read the naming convention, we use the most common name. Chris! _ct 00:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

So having Executive Yuan isn't confusing to you but the President of the Executive Yuan is? Please read the naming convention, we use the most common name. I have already noted before, the most common name is Premier of Taiwan, not the current name.--Jerry 00:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. If the most common name is not acceptable, then we use the second most common name, which is the Premier of the Republic of China. Also if a person tries to look up what the Executive Yuan is, he or she must have some kind of knowledge of what it is beforehand. Don't you think? Chris! _ct 00:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, if the most common name is not acceptable we don't simply use the second most common name, and that's hardly the point since the President of the Executive Yuan is even more common than Premier of the Republic of China. And I'm going to say this one more time: The President of the Executive Yuan is both the official title of the position in both Chinese and English. If you think a person would be confused about the title, there could be a statement, a disambiguation line, or even a paragraph in the article talking about the name of the position.--Jerry 00:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't think we can sort this out by simply arguing. Why not let other join the discussion first? Chris! _ct 00:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm simply trying to explain. I don't think this is so hard to understand. Premier of Taiwan is the most common name, but since it not so neutral, we move to the official name, which also in this case is the second common name. I don't see the current name President of the ROC as an option since it's neither the official or the common name.--Jerry 00:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

While it is the actual official name, I'm curious as to why you're proposing this move from common name -> official name, when just a few weeks ago, you were advocating the exact opposite for various China-related articles.  _{Folic_Acid | talk}  03:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Premier of the ROC isn't the common name. I would still think the move to Premier of Taiwan (the common name) is appropriate, but I'm sure many people will oppose on that move.--Jerry 00:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Premier of ROC is the second most common name. We should use that. We just don't use the official name. This is a simple concept. Anyway, what do you think, Folic Acid?Chris! _ct 22:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find anything in the naming conventions that says do not use the official name. If so, I wonder why articles like the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China still exist. More importantly, the current name is not the second most common name, President of the Executive Yuan is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerrch (talk • contribs) 23:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NC reads: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity." President of the Executive Yuan while official, is not a good name since it is not the one most easily recognized. Just ask a bunch of non-Chinese or non-Taiwanese English speakers, a majority of them don't even know what Executive Yuan is. While the naming convention does not spell out no official name, we don't use the official name if it is not the most easily recognized name and other alternatives are available. Usually when all the alternatives are used or not available, we use official name. Note that Republic of China and the People's Republic of China have to use the official name because Taiwan and China are already used. Chris! _ct 02:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This naming convention WP:COMMONNAME is the one with more detail. Chris! _ct 02:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the most easily recognized title of the position is the Premier of Taiwan. Now I would certainly agree the move to Premier of Taiwan. I don't think you would agree, though. So we move on to the second most easily recognized title: President of the Executive Yuan (which also happens to be the official name). Just because it is also an official name, doesn't mean that it should not be used (It's not logical to skip the second most common name and move on to the third just because it's official).--Jerry 02:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No. President of the Executive Yuan is simply not the second most easily recognized name as a majority of non-Chinese and non Taiwanese English speakers doesn't recognize it. President of Republic of China is the real second most easily recognized name. Chris! _ct 02:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

1,030 ghits for "President of the Executive Yuan"

744 ghits for "Premier of the Republic of China"

I believe it is pretty obvious that "President of the Executive Yuan" is more common.--Jerry 02:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The numbers of ghits don't mean anything. If you try yahoo!, they are about even.

952 Yahoo! hits for "Premier of the Republic of China"

1160 Yahoo! hits for "President of the Executive Yuan"

But anyway, the fact that a majority of non-Chinese and non Taiwanese English speakers doesn't recognize it still held true.Chris! _ct 03:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Try Executive Yuan vs. Republic of China on Google

EY 898,000

ROC 26,000,000 Chris! _ct 03:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tables

Here's a table with all combinations that I've seen in this discussion. Please feel free to add to it: — Sebastian 03:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

How are you going to prove that most non-Taiwanese people aren't familiar with the Executive Yuan? Although they are about even on yahoo, the President of the EY is still more common. And why are you comparing the EY with the ROC? we are not proposing a move of EY to ROC.--Jerry 03:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I compare EY with ROC in order to show you that people in the world recognize ROC more than EY Chris! _ct 03:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What counts here is what people in the world say, not the people in the country itself. The President of the United States is only called "president" here, but nobody would propose to rename that article to "president". — Sebastian 03:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

That is what I am saying. But User:Jerrch keep insisting that President of the Executive Yuan is more common. Chris! _ct 03:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It is. The tables above are some evidence.

BTW, people and medias in Taiwan usually refer to this position as premier (閣揆; neither premier of Taiwan or premier of the Republic of China). For example, Premier Chang would be 張揆. Just to make it clear.

--Jerry 20:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC) Note that President of the Republic of China is not the same as President of the Executive Yuan. They are two different government positions. Chris! _ct 03:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, my bad. I'll split the table. I'm still not sure if all the premier titles go together or if "President of the Executive Yuan" = "President of Taiwan". Please move the rows so that it's correct. — Sebastian 09:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the table. This is exactly why I don't think the Premier of the Republic of China is not an option.--Jerry 20:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you say. I will continue to oppose the move. Chris! _ct 03:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, why? I am not happy with what I found, because I distrust Jerrch's insisting on polemical arguments rather than facts, and I resent that I ended up making the table to prove Jerrch's point. But to be honest, it really looks like they has a point, doesn't it? From the overwhelming overall statistics, my personal favorite is now "Premier of Taiwan", but seeing that .gov.tw avoids this term like the plague, I must say that "President of the Executive Yuan" has some advantages, too. That said, I assume that the former is probably immediately understood by about 1000 times more readers than the latter. — Sebastian 07:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

To Chris: If you are going to simply oppose the move without any reason, it is possible that we can still reach a consensus and move the page, since you're the only one who opposes.

To Sebastian: I really do understand what you mean, but I knew the facts, I just thought that they would be common sense for people who are going to participate in the discussion.--Jerry 18:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see the reasons for my oppose vote. (You can search for "17:42" or for the first occurrence of my name.) — Sebastian 00:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, it is possible that we can reach a consensus and reject the move since you are the only one who supports. I already explain my position above. Number of google hits don't impress me as they do not truly reflect which name is more common. Chris! _ct 21:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What does reflect what is most common? (Sorry if I overlooked it; I'm not too vested in this issue, but I'm trying to get a fair impression before I change my vote.) It looks like your argument of 02:18 has been refuted by Jerrch. — Sebastian 00:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I have reasons and sources.--Jerry 21:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no reliable to know which term is more common. Google search is not reliable at all since more people in Taiwan use EY more through the internet and make more google hits. But that doesn't mean it is a more common term in the worldwide perspective. As far as I see, this is a one man show since nobody has shown support regarding this move. Chris! _ct 20:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that the google hits are not reliable to see which term is more known in the western world, but since the google hits shows comparisons of the names in English, I believe it is somewhat reliable. Although I may be the only one supporting the move, if I have a reason, and people opposing the move simply continue to oppose the move without a reason or sources to back their reasons up (my bad on this, but Sebastian provided sources for me), their opinions on the move should not be considered when reaching a consensus. Isn't this common sense? You don't just go around opposing moves that actually are reasonable.--Jerry 21:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Your move is not reasonable at all. First thing, we have to follow the naming convention. However, your suggested move is not doing so. So it really doesn't matter whether you have a reason or not. If it violates the naming convention, then it doesn't work. If you want to change the naming convention, then take your case to the naming convention talk page. Second, as I have said earlier, Google hits have no weight in this discussion since it is quite easy for someone to spike up the numbers and it might only show hits from Taiwanese websites without revealing a global perspective of which term is more "easily recognized." Therefore, your position is without a reason. Remember, you can't just go around and move articles without following convention because you think is right. A "one person consensus" is really not a consensus at all. Chris! _ct 20:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well the google hits are definitely a proof that President of the EY is more common. Even though you can argue that they aren't reliable, they give you an idea of how common these terms are. Have you gotten any source that says Premier of the ROC is a more common term than President of the Executive Yuan?--Jerry 20:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

No, google hits are not proofs. And President of the EY is not common. This is just your opinion. Chris! _ct 21:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Where's your source to back that statement up? (President of the EY is not common.)--Jerry 22:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for source. It is obvious to see that more non Asian English speakers recognize ROC than those recognize EY. But if you think google hits are proofs, then I already show you above that ROC has more ghits than EY. Chris! _ct 00:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Notice President of the ROC is not an option here.--Jerry 01:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It is an option. It is just that you don't accept it. Chris! _ct 01:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Premier and President are two different positions in the ROC government system.--Jerry 01:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I knew that. Chris! _ct 02:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay...So then why are you comparing ROC with EY? We are comparing "Premier of the ROC" to "President of the EY."--Jerry 03:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you are confusing yourself. President of ROC is different from Premier of ROC. President of EY is just the official term for premier. They are the same. Chris! _ct 23:53, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I know they are the same, but we are comparing President of the EY with Premier of the ROC. So your comparison of ROC and EY doesn't work.--Jerry 23:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It works because it shows ROC is more recognizable than EY. Chris! _ct 00:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It should not be compared this way, because President of the EY is more recognizable than Premier of the ROC.--Jerry 00:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

You know what. I am not going to continue this discussion anymore. Let's just wait for mediation. Chris! _ct 00:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? We're going to need a conclusion eventually.

Reply to your previous comments: I think you are having a double standard, you are saying the ghits aren't reliable for the "Premier of ROC vs President of EY" table while saying they are for the "ROC vs EY" table.--Jerry 01:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

They aren't. I show you that because you think they are reliable. And we can never get a conclusion between both of us because we can't agree on each other. That is why we need mediation.Chris! _ct 02:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the mediation request was rejected. I suppose we'll have to resolve this conflict ourselves.

Reply to Chris: I can still see your double standard. If you think ghits are reliable, then why eliminating other words from the title? I do agree that ROC might be a more common term than EY but it hardly matters in this case since the President of the EY is more common. On the other hand, if you think ghits aren't reliable, how can you prove that Premier of the ROC is a more common term than President of the Executive Yuan?

Also, what your saying actually implies that the move of Executive Yuan to Executive branch of the Republic of China would be appropriate, because both Executive branch and Republic of China have more ghits than Executive Yuan. My point is that if you're going to use ghits, you should use the whole title, the fact that ROC is more common than EY does not affect this move.--Jerry 20:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Premier of Taiwan

"Premier of Taiwan" is not an acceptable name because the premiers from 1928 to 1949 were never known by this title. For example, TV Soong, HH Kung, Sun Fo, Wang Jingwei, and Tan Yankai were never called "premier of Taiwan" by anybody. It makes no sense to separate pre-1949 and post-1949 (or to reflect common usage, post-1970s) premiers when we have what is essentially the same office.

It may make sense, however, to have an article for the Premiers of the Republic of China from 1912 to 1928 (not mentioned in this article) who went by a different title.--Jiang (talk) 09:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

What was the title?--Jerry 20:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

國務總理 (1912-14;1916-28), 政事堂國務卿 (1914-16)--Jiang (talk) 04:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So in English Prime Minister maybe?--Jerry 15:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe for 1914-16, but 總理 is also title of the PRC premier. I have to look up historical journals for common usage.

So maybe one article for the premiers whilst they were based on China (e.g. Premier of China from date X to date Y) and one article for when they were on Taiwan (e.g. Premier of Taiwan). Clearly "Premier of the Republic of China" is not well known so should be changed. John Smith's (talk) 17:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No, while 1928 is a logical breaking point, 1949 is not since the premier fled across the strait and continued in the same office. If it is about common names, then we would have arbitrarily break it around the late 1970s.--Jiang (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

How about Prime Minister of China (1912-1928) and President of the Executive Yuan (1928-present)?--Jerry 21:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

We need an article specifically on 1912-1928 premiers, as "Prime Minister of China" can also refer to the office(s) that existed from antiquity to the Ming dynasty (Chancellor of China)--Jiang (talk) 02:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

well John's idea is somewhat good (Prime Minister of China (1912-1928) or (Premier of China (1912-1928) or Minister-President of China (1912-1928) or First Minister of China (1912-1928)) or we could move Prime Minister of China to First Minister of China and start a new page with Prime Minister of China.  Avec nat...Wikipédia Prends Des Forces.  11:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation?

People here have spent a lot of time gathering facts and I admire your tenacity in still searching for a constructive solution. I feel this case is ripe for mediation. As WP:MedCab coordinator, I would of course welcome you there, but I think since this is a politically sensitive issue it may be better to bring it to WP:MedCom, where the problem can be attacked more officially. — Sebastian 16:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Mediation might be a very good idea - I would support it. John Smith's (talk) 17:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, mediation is good - I am tired of explaining this. Chris! _ct 23:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I also agree to bring this to mediation.--Jerry 23:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest someone files the case - don't expect someone to do it for you. I'm willing to help out anyway I can - name me as a party if you want. John Smith's (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I filed the case:Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Premier of the Republic of China.--Jerry 20:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)