Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 37

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Use of Cagan's Book

I understand that the status of Cagan's book as a source is currently being mediated, but my understanding from past discussions is that we (the editors who discussed it at the time) agreed that it could only be used for non-controversial content such as the number of children Rawat has. I have just read two items in the article that attack ex-premies that are sourced to the book. One related to Macgregor and the other to ex-premies engaging in criminal activity. I ask the editor concerned to respect the previous agreement and remove both of those items, and any other controversial material solely sourced to the book. Thank you. --John Brauns (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Sylviecyn (talk) 19:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Add to that the flaws when one actually starts reading Cagan's text, see my remarks above in #Customs incident...
The bulk of the previous discussion is at Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 29#Status of “Peace Is Possible”, John has a point. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Who added and where is the edit that uses Cagan's book for these statements? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Just check Momento's recent contribution list. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In fact I had already removed one, before reading John's comment [1] --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that it was you, Will, that added this. [2] I am missing something? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you are missing something. It was added by Momento and deleted by me. Momento then asked that I restore it. I did so in a more appropriate location and with attribution. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That all sentence needs to be removed. If we include a mention of Macgregor's article, we will need to inform readers of the controversy that ensued, legal wranglings, the apology, and affidavits, and that is not a good idea. Remove the lot. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't just about Macgregor, but about other contentious material added by Momento sourced to Cagan. As you know, Cagan is one of the topics on the mediation list. As pointed out above, there was a consensus to not use Cagan for contentious assertions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's continue this in the section below. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a discussion of Macgregor. This thread concerns Momento's use of Cagan in various edits. If no one here agrees with the new Cagan claims I'll remove them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Adressing John’s concern in the below thread, concerning the stated deficits in the Cagan book: It is only a biography. People who buy it are probably interested in its subject. The antagonism that surrounds the subject is also conditioned by the subject. The only circumstance that makes his detractors notable at all is their, albeit twisted, connection with the subject. A biography of John Lennon will name his assassin, but needs not give room to his personal motives. In WP, there is a seperate article on Mark David Chapman. Of course Chapman had his reasons, but they are not of interest in the context of a John Lennon bio. You can of course write a book on Israel without interviewing Hamas, Nasrallah and Ahmadinejad, although they probably think you should. It is enough to mention and characterize the conflict, and it can still be a highly informative monography, no need to derogate it. If one wants to hear the voice of Hamas, they can easily do so anywhere else. Like I said above, the guest of a gourmet restaurant is not obliged to go through the contents of the garbage can. He is very thankful for the garbage can. If the reataurant had none, that would raise suspicion the waste is recycled in the meals. But for the description and appraisal of the restaurant the garbage plays only a role insofar, as the bugs are not supposed to populate the kitchen. As a guest, I don’t need to really hate the bugs, I just don’t want to eat them or their metabolic products. Even an ecology-minded person has a right to a clean plate. And that is, to my understanding, the position of a person who purchases the Cagan book (I hope you forgive me the somewhat drastic analogy, no offence meant. I am just trying to help clarifying the logics of a complex and turbid situation).--Rainer P. (talk) 08:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC
Rainer, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from making derrogatory remarks about detractors, former followers, etc. Your post above is a bit over-the-top and borders on personal attacks because of the way you characterize detractors as having a "twisted" connection to..." And, with due respect, enough with the gourmet restaurant garbage and flies analogy. That's the second time in two days you made that same veiled personal attack against John Brauns (I have to assume you refer to myself, too). For the record, I don't have any connection to the subject anymore at all, twisted or otherwise. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Sylvie, I owe you an apology. I won’t use that unsavory analogy again, promise. Thinking it over, it may have given me a little sense of compensation for that sick feeling that persisted for almost two days after my first encounter with EPO. So it's maybe a rather personal thing and has nothing to do on WP. P.S.: I am now pretty immune. And I do have quite my own ideas concerning the connection between you or John and Prem Rawat, but that does not belong here, either.--Rainer P. (talk) 16:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Question: Was this edit made with consensus? Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 09:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Were these [3][4][5]? Momento (talk) 10:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Did anyone discuss changing the section headings to "Disappointment" and "Opposition"? If you want to go by the rules Steve, and I do, very few edits in the last few weeks have been made by formal consensus. Perhaps we should institute no edits without discussion and consensus? I would support that.Momento (talk) 10:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, I issued a warning to them about that, and I have asked that changes are discussed before they are made have consensus, right here. So, it goes for both sides. If ultimately necessary, protection may be used. But I don't want it to get to that. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 10:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Excellent.Momento (talk) 10:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Obviously there has been opposition to Rawat, so why would we only allow one source and not another? Frankly, I'm surprised that the "ex-premie" group has been included in the article (as they are an "insignificant minority") but since it is currently accepted Cagan's must be allowed to comment on them. To exclude Cagan on "opposition" is unacceptable bias.Momento (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Steve, I'm in favor of following the rules but what are we supposed to do about this? Every few days this part of Melton's comment is left off the quote -" Mishler's charges found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission". Do I have to put it back in or can editors be instructed to use all of a quote or none at all.Momento (talk) 10:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Momento, I'm surprised to see you make that request because just the other day you added a quotation with no indication that you'd deleted a couple of sentences from the middle.[6] Do you think that it is acceptable when you do it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Added new topic to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Momento edit-warring over criticism section at Prem Rawat. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

No concensus was reached for that edit, Steve. I thought we were going to wait until the Cagan book issue is resolved before adding contentious edits from her book as Momento did. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Please have a look at the Consensus section, everyone. I'd like to know if you all agree or disagree with my idea. Once again, while I can't formally impose anything, I strongly urge editors to discuss changes here before making them. Steve Crossin (talk) (review)

Cagan, again

I counted ten cites in the article from Andrea Cagan. They are cites 1, 6, 21, 22, 48, 57, 66, 72, 120, and 124. I don't see how the cites can continue to be used until the reliability of Cagan is settled. In fact, it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse to be writin any "proposals" (which should be titled "drafts) until all of the disputed sources are resolved. Also, the "Critical" section contains this very weasely statement:

Critical former followers became known as "ex-premies" and some have undertaken illegal activities against Rawat and his followers.[120] [121][122] A website started in 1996 utilizes the term, www.ex-premie.org.[123][122] Elan Vital has characterised former followers that became vocal critics as disgruntled former employees.[121]

"Some" is a weasel word. The phrase "some have undertaken illegal activities" is also weasely, and it's cited from Cagan's book (which should not be used for this because her section on ex-premies is all hearsay, and based a long list of libellous lies about certain ex-premies taken from the EV website). The news report about Ackland (from the Courier Mail) says he was stopped by the police when he tried to protest, not that he's a criminal. Furthermore, not only critical or vocal former followers refer to themselves as "ex-premies." It's a term that is interchangeable with "former followers," like ex-husband or ex-wife is interchangeable with former husband, wife, etc. Sylviecyn (talk) 16:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

"some have undertaken illegal activities..." & ref

Is there a consensus to undo this edit? I'd be in. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Francis, thanks. The phrase you highlighted should be removed. Sylviecyn (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Disagree. It is an important fact about the "ex=premie" group.Momento (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Momento, it's not a fact. It's innuendo based on trumped up lies made up by Elan Vital in order smear Rawat critics. It also uses guilt by association. The sole purpose of its insertion by you was denegrate Rawat's critics. It has no place in an encyclopedia. And, btw, you never gained concensus for inserting that line, because I would have disagreed strongly. You made a unilateral edit. It really must come out of there soon -- long before proposals and concensus is reached on sources. That could take months. It's Cagan repeating Elan Vital defamation of character, nothing more. Sylviecyn (talk) 02:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Momento, did you discuss that edit or seek consensus for it? I don't see anything of that type. Furthermore, the use of Cagan as a source is in dispute and is subject to mediation. That edit appears contentious and inflammatory, and is counterproductive. I suggest that it be reomved until we can reach a consensus about it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Since the sentence had been in existence for more than a week, I suggest it stays there until we reach consensus about it. That was Francis was doing and I agree with him. Momento (talk) 23:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Where did you discuss that edit? I don't see it. I dont' se any consensus for that material, nor do I see you asserting that there is one. Since it's derogatory information from a dubious source we should remove it pending agreement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea to unprotect the article to make piecemeal edits. You said so yourself and Steve agreed. He's made a mirror article for edits, let's go with what we all agreed.Momento (talk) 00:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
The request is not to unprotect the article - the request is to make one edit to undo an edit made without consensus. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Eleven editors, including yourself, agree to Steve's proposal, please stick with it.Momento (talk) 00:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Requesting changes is consistent with the agreement we all made. If Momento insists on retaining the edits he made without consensus before the page is protected then that prevents making changes to remove the material. If he wishes to veto an edit supported by several other editors then that's within the scope of the agreement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
There are several edits that were made without consensus, and if I am not mistaken, such an edit by one editor triggered another edit by another editor, and that is where we find ourselves now. So, I would support a deletion of all these edits that were made without consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure if a removal of content that had limited/no consensus would fit in with the protection policy. I think it best the mirrored version be worked on, and when there's consensus for copying or adding content through a {{editprotected}}, then that can be done. I think it would be difficult to determine all the edits that were made with consensus, and those that were made without consensus, and it would take a large time to determine this. Content in the article is disputed, that's why it's protected, and being mediated. I think in the interests of the mediation, the article should be worked through as it stands, and we shouldn't waste time trying to determine what edits are OK and what edits aren't, that's why it's at mediation. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 20:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ex-premie: connotations

@Sylviecyn. Not really; I have several friends that have stopped being actively involved with the subject of this article, and that no longer consider themselves "followers", and they will be very offended if they would be referred as "ex-premies". The only people that refer themselves as such, are these that have chosen to become active critics. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Please stick to the facts and the subject of this page, Jossi. What your friends think or don't think about the term is irrelevant to this discussion. The terms 'ex-premie" and "former follower" are synonomous and interchangeable. Sylviecyn (talk) 20:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
ex-premie" and "former follower" are synonomous and interchangeable? According to whom, exactly? As I said above, we are entitled to our own opinions, but not entitled to our own facts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
They are synonymous and interchangeable because the prefix "ex" means "former." "Ex-premie" doesn't mean "vocal critic of Prem Rawat," it means "former premie," which is the same thing as "former follower." Please see Dictionary.com's definitions of "ex-". Sylviecyn (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, the only group that defines 'ex-premie' as only refering to former followers who post on the internet is Elan Vital. The people who came up with the web-site name clearly intended it to mean any former follower of Prem Rawat, and in fact it had been used that way before ex-premie.org existed. If Elan Vital want a short name for former followers of Prem Rawat that criticise him on the internet then they should come up with their own name, not try to hijack an existing term. --John Brauns (talk) 21:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, the only group that defines 'ex-premie' as only refering to former followers who post on the internet is Elan Vital. Where exactly? I do not see such mention. As for sources. which sources describe an "ex-premie" in any context other than to refer to former follwoers that have become critics? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This 1983 article in Hunduism Today uses the term [[7]] quite naturally in the normal English usage manner of ex- meaning former as we have been trying to explain to you so many times.--John Brauns (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Tx, the source shows:
  • Term "ex-premie" was used more than 10 years before ex-premie.org came to life;
  • Term "ex-premie" not loaded with negative connotations, at least not for the author(s) of that article.
(and some other interesting stuff in that article, of no relevance in this discussion thread, but useable for Wikipedia as far as I can see) --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
That article use of the term, is consistent with my argument above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, you have no evidence that the ex-premie refered to is an 'active critic', and he certainly didn't post on the internet on 1983. The fact is that people who have rejected Rawat as their master did so for a reason, and the only evidence of those reasons we have are those people who have spoken out. If you argue, as you have done in this case, that anyone who does speak out becomes part of an unrepresentative minority (that you then vilify), you have a responsibility to provide some evidence that the majority of former followers think differently. You have not done so, so it is reasonable for neutral readers to come to the conclusion that you have no such evidence. Also, in the article, it appears to be the author that coined the term, 'ex-premie', not the former follower quoted. --John Brauns (talk) 23:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
A mention does not make this relevant whatsoever. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Rawat had millions of "former followers" before the "ex-premie" group started its website.Momento (talk) 23:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for this information? The fact that Rawat has lost 'millions' of followers is definitely noteworthy and should be included in the article. --John Brauns (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It's already included in the article.Momento (talk) 01:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I could understand the need for some people to promote their website, or to promote the view that hey represent anything else than just themselves. But if that group of people were relevant and/or notable, we would have multiple reputable sources that describe them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
There are multiple sources, Jossi, and EPO doesn't need Wikipedia for promotion. Just Google it. And please knock off the sarcasm and baiting, Jossi, you've been making a habit out it and it doesn't help. Sylviecyn (talk) 02:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
There was no sarcasm or bating in my comment. Are you saying that there are multiple reputable sources that describe the views promoted on that site? I don't think so. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, considering that you created an article on The Prem Rawat Foundation. I think that for you to accuse others of using Wikipedia for promotion is, well, lacking in self-reflection. Maybe it's better to avoid discussing the purported motivations of other editors. Unless you want your motives discussed then don't discuss the motives of others. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
No, Will. That article is about a registered foundation about which there are substantial sources, and if you think otherwise, go ahead and place it on AfD. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

<<< I have refactored my comment above. I prefer to engage in constructive debates as these that are taking place at the different proposals pages set by the mediator. From now on, I will simply ignore any comment, questions, or opinions presented in these pages that are not 100% focused in improving this and other articles. I invite other active editors to take the same attitude ... I think we all had enough of useless debates that do not move us forward in this content dispute. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I'd encourage editors to stay on topic, in fact I'd encourage editors to use this talk page to discuss topics directly related to the mediation. Keeping things focused would be the best way to progress here. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "ex-premie" website, I found another reference. "Online: Working the web: Cults: Creating a cult is a cakewalk, says Clint Witchalls. All you need are a few ideas, an audience and access to the net. " The Guardian (London, England). (Feb 13, 2003): The golden age of cults was in the late 60s and early 70s. Nearly every self-respecting hippie had dabbled with a bit of wicca or shared a bowl of mung bean stew with a Hare Krishna devotee. Remember the Divine Light Mission? Remember the Moonies? Recovering members can be seen licking their wounds at www.ex-premie.org and www.xmoonies.com respectively. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

  • I've noticed that the discussion on this page is slightly unfocused. This page at the moment should be used for discussing the mediatiion, and the article, but not endlessely debating over details. I feel that it's time that the discussion is refocused, therefore, I ask that discussion here either ceases, or is at a very minimal amount. This talk page will be used to discuss the article in a focused, structured way. It also has a list of issues to be mediated, and they can be worked through one by one. I've added soft redirects to the talk page, for ease of access. I'd ask that all parties engage in discussion on the proposal pages, note that not doing so could equivilate to silent consensus. Thanks again, Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 20:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Exceptional claim?

Is this an "exeptional claim" that needs to be removed? [8] Please provide rationale:

Mishner's charges, made just after the deaths at Jonestown, Guyana, [1978] found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission

What is needed is maybe to simply change the verb to: "found little support and have did not affected the progress of the Mission. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

A) It's a claim that is only made by one source in one place. B) The organization underwent a loss of membership in this period and disbanded a few years later. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
(A) So now we can start removing content sourced to scholars which have not been mentioned in other sources? Are you sure of this? How is this argument compatible with other discussions you are having about singular claims made in much less reputable sources? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
(B) For that, we only need to change the verb as proposed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Melton's Encyclopedic Handbook is a tertiary, non-academic source that misspells Mishler's name. This is not the highest quality source available. His assertion that Mishler's widely reported comments had no effect on the "progress" of the DLM is unsourced. Since the plain facts show that the DLM was not undergoing progress but was in a serious decline the statement is extraordinary. As orginally worded it placed too much weight on Melton's negation and too little on the actual assertions by Mishler. According to Melton, Mishler's complaints — that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaji's personal use — found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission.[9] Iff we gave substantially more space to Mishler's various criticisms then mentioning Melton's opinion might be worthwhile. But we barely mention Mishler so Melton's extraordinary claim is out of place. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not understand why you are bringing the argument of "extraordinary claim", which is defined in Wikipedia here WP:REDFLAG, in relation to what Melton is saying. I would argue that you are engaging in WP:OR by making these arguments. Mishler is the one about which WP:REDFLAG applies: reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended, if at all. After all, we do not know that Mishler's comments had in relation to impact in membership.; we are simply quoting a scholar's opinion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said before, if we give Mishler's assertions more space then Melton's opinion may be worth including. It's poor writing to make the rebuttal as long or longer than the assertion. Regarding the Mishler's assertions, they seem in character with what we know of him. It is not at all extraordinary that he would criticize Rawat, and we have several sources which say he did so. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
It is not at all extraordinary that he would criticize Rawat, sure. But what I am arguing that it is a WP:REDFLAG, as of reports of a statement by someone against an interest they had previously defended. That is in WP policy for a reason. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
That may be so, but the "redflag" requirement is satisfied because we have numerous highly reliable sourcs which conform that he said those things. WP:REDFLAG does not prohibit us from reporting "exceptional claims", it only requires that we have highly reliable sources to back them up. Are you seriously arguing that Mishler didn't become a critic of Rawat, and that he didn't say the things attributed to him? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:REDFLAG cannot be put aside because something was said multiple times, Will. Redflag is there to avoid reporting opinions that are made by people that may have had an ax to grind. That is exactly what thee policy is there for. And not, not waved enough unless you have taken notice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The Associated Press and United Press International both carried quotations from Mishler (apparently froma press conference). The assertions have also been reported in scholarly sources and even in Melton. WP:REDFLAG simply requires that we support extraordinary claims with highly-reliable sources. Which source is not highly reliable? If one of them is a problem I'm sure we can find a better replacement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
No will no. You are missing the point completely. It does not matter how many wires you throw at it: WP:REDFLAG is pretty unambiguous about this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's clear (and brief):
  • Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality reliable sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included.
Which sources are you saying are not "highly reliable"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Imho, per the discussion in this section, this edit should be undone. Further, we do not systematically "use all the quote or none". --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

There are unresolved disagreements about that deletion, therefore I object. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Jossi is correct; request declined. Thanks for the help. weburiedoursecretsinthegarden 17:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, please state the unresolved disagreements, or where to find them. Above, you apparently ran out of arguments a week ago, and didn't reply to Will's last question. Please don't state "unresolved disagreements" without a proper argumentation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Read above, is that simple. Unless you are now the judge for which argument is "winining", which I don't think you are, there is no agreement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Please resume your argument then. As far as I can see all your concerns were answered by Will, and you didn't answer his last question. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, either there's an intelligent response to Will's arguments above, either the discussion has died out, and hence is moot, and there's consensus for the change. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Francis, you are more than welcome to create a proposal on a new proposals page. Let me get a button up for it, and make it easier. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Think it a bit over the top to create a 5th proposals page for this:

Undo this edit

Also, nobody seems to think there's still anything to add to what has been said here — but please, if you do, come forward.
I objected to fragmentation of discussion multiple times, same here: if however anyone feels substantial new additions to the analysis of this edit may be made: feel free of course. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Undo this edit, because "but Mishler's charges found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission" is an exceptional claim: all authors (including Melton 1982) see a status quo at best for the Mission in the affected period, and maybe a very partial recuperation of what had gone lost shortly before, but no "progress" of the Mission: no extraordinary evidence is presented to support the exceptional claim.

Above no further reliable sources providing support for this exceptional claim have been provided, so WP:REDFLAG still applies and I assume everyone agrees by now that this claim should not be attached there. The extensive discussion of the evolution of the mission is in Prem Rawat#Reception, and even there nobody sees the need to cover all bases (see e.g. discussion below #Full-time membership of German premies), so why should we describe the most exceptional claim in this context? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not see this an "exceptional claim", it is an opinion of a scholar, and can be easily attributed and placed in the appropriate verb as argued at the top of this section. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Tx for resuming your argument.
Re. "it is an opinion of a scholar" - all other scholars, even Melton himself, contradict it. Thus exceptional.
Re. "can be easily attributed and placed in the appropriate verb as argued at the top of this section." - irrelevant. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for providing your opinion. Please point out where in the policy pages it is explained that a claim made by a scholar and that is not made by other scholars is an "exceptional claim" or a red flag. If your argume t s basded on claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view, please provide sources that present a contradiction to these words by Melton, and without engaging in OR. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The editprotected request was declined. Please do not constantly use this template. It's for uncontroversial changes, or those supported by consensus. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 19:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Criticism: section content

(content of this talk page section moved back to active talk 05:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC))

Editprotected

{{editprotected}}

To replace the current content in the lead paragraph, which is on this proposal page here, with the content in this proposal. Consensus for this proposal is on this discussion page. Additionally, replacing the content which is here, with this. Consensus for this proposal is on this page, and myself being the mediator of this dispute, I feel that both proposals have consensus, therfore I request the edits be made. Thanks, Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 08:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 09:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly object to your handling of the Prem Rawat mediation. To announce an intention to choose and insert a proposal on the Prem Rawat talk page and to make that change less than 30 minutes later is outrageous. This is isn't a race. Important changes must be clearly notified to all involved and ample time given for a response to your proposed change. As for your edit summary of "consensus", 11 editors signed on for your mediation on the Prem Rawat talk page. Only one WillBeBack commented on your proposal on that page.Momento (talk) 10:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • You are welcome to offer an alternate proposal. I didn't decide on a proposal. I was left a note on my talk page, the fact that the proposal had been worked on with a few other editors, who were participating in the proposals process, I feel that I gave plenty of time to allow for either alternate proposals, or discussion, on the talk page. Objections were only raised after the proposal was implemented. I also feel this is a case of silent consensus, and that if a reasonable time is given, and that no objections are made, or no alternatives are offered, that there is consensus for an edit. I'll have the edit undone, however in future, participate more actively in the dispute, and offer alternatives. Sitting on your hands and doing nothing makes consensus difficult to determine. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 11:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The edit has been undone. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 14:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your level-headed response, Steve. Rumiton (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Of course, I'm just noting it's extremely difficult to try and determine consensus when no discussion or further alternatives were offered, and that I'd like in future, for participants to be more active in discussions. Thanks. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 15:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
My thanks also for your prompt response.Momento (talk) 21:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I didn't have the page on my watchlist. I hope I have them all now. Much active discussion and many alternative suggestions should ensue. Rumiton (talk) 14:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Good, I'm glad to hear it. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 14:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Straw polls

!Voting is evil - Straw polls are not a replacement for active participation in debates. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Voting isn't evil. Voting is a tool - counterpoint. Straw polls can be a useful adjunct to active participation in debates. 82.44.221.140 (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, please see this. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 22:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)