Talk:Prehistory of Australia

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Contents 1 Initial anthropology 2 ARID 3 extended periods of glaciation? 4 Politics and Social Orginization

[edit] Initial anthropology

From my reading, 'anthropology' was all the rage in the 18th C. (ie from initial contact): and has continued ever since.Thus I have removed sentence which claims otherwise. Eric A. Warbuton 03:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)'

[edit] ARID

The term 'arid' has a technical definition of 'less than 250mm pa' from Groves 'Australian vegetation' (This is an encyclopedia-not the womans weekly-so can we be accurate) which is less than 40% of the land mass of Aust. And importantly the majority of tribal Aboriginals do not live in these areas- they live in the tropics and sub tropics. Also I dont know the reason for leaving 'remote' in the text is: it adds nothing to it. Can someone tell me? Eric A. Warbuton 06:15, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

You initially said the issue was POV, not accuracy. If you can show that the majority of Aboriginal people live in areas which are not technically "arid," fine, delete it. I have no problems with deleting "remote" or replacing it with a less eurocentric word. Adam 08:20, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] extended periods of glaciation?

In the section on migration there is the phrase 'repeated episodes of extended glaciation' which I cant get my head round. In the period being talked about Im led to believe that there was a slow retreat from say 10,000bp. So are the dates correct as they now read in the text? Do they need adjusting? Can you provide some refs on the above process for us to peruse? Eric A. Warbuton 02:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The sentence reads: "Repeated episodes of extended glaciation resulted in decreases of sea levels by some 100-150 m." What is difficult about this? It doesn't mean glaciation in Australia, it means globally. It means that global glaciation has fluctuated over the past million years, causing sea levels to rise and fall. Adam 06:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Well: the context is at the end of the pleistocene epoch where there weren't 'repeated episodes of extended glaciation' : there was only deglaciation from at least 10000bp: can you provide refs to show otherwise?Eric A. Warbuton 08:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it was a little clumsily-phrased; when I wrote that sentence my intention was to avoid the implication that this was a singular event (rather, sea-levels have repeatedly fluctuated), whilst maintaining a link to a predominant factor in this fluctuation- ie, glaciation. As Adam points out, I of course did not mean to imply that the most-recent glaciation referred to had a presence in Australia itself. The context of the sentence refers to not just the last 10,000 yrs ("end of the Pleistocene" is rather broad), but the whole of the extensive period in which it is possible (or it is claimed) that humans could have migrated to AU. Although generally-speaking, the trend after the Last Glacial Maximum was for sea-levels to rise, this did not happen uniformly and was influenced by other local factors, such as the topology of the shelf itself, which is quite shallow (particularly at the Torres Strait end), and ridged in several places. The Gulf of Carpentaria was several times in this period the Lake of Carpentaria, for example. Mini transgressions and regressions occurred, even when the overall trend was for general ocean encroachment in this area. If you've some ideas on how best to capture the essence of this, would be happy to hear them.--cjllw | TALK 08:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Well to achieve accuracy and momentum in the paragraph I'd remove this sentence: 'Repeated episodes of extended glaciation resulted in decreases of sea levels by some 100-150m' as it now stands it clogs it up with notions that are to vague and though of great importance should belong elsewhere. Yes? Eric A. Warbuton 09:00, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The point of the sentence is that humans migrated to Australia during the last major glaciation in the northern hemisphere, which caused sea-levels world-wide to fall, creating the land-bridge to Australia. Someone should write a clear sentence to that effect. Adam 09:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, 10,000y bp Tasmania was glaciated and the treeline in Victoria was at 600m so conditions in the N hemisphere are not the point. The direct mention of global glaciation wouldl be complex and problematic as over the last 70000 years there has been much flux of ice, as Mr Wright has rightly mentioned and if it is to be discussed I dont think this the correct text for it to go. Eric A. Warbuton 09:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Uh, yes, conditions in the northern hemisphere are the point. Glaciation in the southern hemisphere was trivial by comparison, because the land area down here is much smaller than up there. Glaciers don't float. It was the glaciation of Eurasia and North America that locked up all the water and made sea levels drop, so that humans could walk to Australia. Adam 10:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this is not the place to go into the finer points of the whys and wherefores of sea level changes in this period (and in fact the present passage does not do this). However, in this context the fact the continent had a much-extended coastline for much of this time is key in understanding how people could have reached it in the first place. If we mention that eustatic sea levels had generally receded for lengthy periods, we also ought to explain even if briefly the understood mechanisms for this- namely, increased glaciation over significant portions of the globe (itself caused by other factors). Perhaps the present sentences are not the best, but the ideas still needs to be communicated that there were extended periods from 75k yrs ago when the coastline was much further out; the trend up to about 18k yrs ago was for seas to recede, and thereafter to rise, but local conditions saw fluctuations in this; and that AU and New Guinea were joined several times at various places, but Sahul is not believed to have been connected to Wallacea so some sort of navigation would have been required, whenever the 1st migrations took place.

That people once quite likely were living happily in areas which are now 50m or more below the ocean, and 100's of km out from the present shoreline, is probably not common knowledge, and probably deserving of an article in itself (say, human settlement of Sahul); in the absence of such an article I'm quite happy with the present summary of events, but if you can tweak it to cover the key points, pls do.--cjllw | TALK 11:10, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Eric, your revision looks just fine.--cjllw | TALK 02:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Politics and Social Orginization

Can someone add another chapter about how the tribe leader is chosen or who can marry who and so on. Efansay 09:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There was no "leader" in a group. Elders were respected and obeyed due to the fact they were a) a source of knowledge, and b) experienced. But there was no single leader for any group. In excessively simplistic terms, you might say Aboriginal societies were egalitarian gerontocracies, but that's fitting Western concepts onto Aboriginal forms of social organisation. Regarding marriage, see skin group. Aridd (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)