User:Pratj/Fortifications of Medway

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the title of the page explains itself, any help or advice from anyone will be greatly appreciated Pratj 15:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

discuss here

So, apparently today is now over. And I haven't done anything on Medway Forts. But I have Saved the Universe in the real world (well, a friend's part of it). Will get there tomorrow. Which is now Today anyway (early night? What early night?). ;-) JackyR | Talk 23:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

lol, anyway, i may be on here today but im having a piss up tonight so i don't know

anyway, what information have u got already

Pratj 12:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Dug it out: was a table showing what articles existed and what was linked where. Probably better if I start again. [edit] Chatham Defences My suggestion would be to start an article called Chatham Defences (click the red link, and start typing!) This would cover the defences specifially known as such, in chronological order of development, and include links to existing indvidual articles (you can decide if the redlinked forts need their own articles, too). It would include:

Upnor (not a Palmerston Fort) and the chain Gillingham Fort Cockham Wood Fort (it really is spelt like that) Cumberland lines Townsend Redoubt Fort Amherst Fort Pitt Fort Clarence Grain Fort Grain Dummy Battery Grain Tower Battery Slough Fort Fort Bridgewoods Fort Luton Fort Borstal Fort Horsted Fort Darland Twydall Redoubts Fort Darnet Fort Hoo Great Lines Brompton lines (mentioned in Luton, may be part of Great Lines) Delce Tower (not sure about this) Gibraltar Tower (not sure about this) Medway Tower (not sure about this) Sources:

eCastles Palmerston forts Fort Amherst and lots more Fort Amherst Upnor

Other Wikilinks:

Category:Forts in England Raid on the Medway Palmerston Forts and Palmerston Forts, Chatham Royal Commission on the Defence of the United Kingdom Hoo Peninsula [edit] Medway Having done that article, you can then refer to both it and Chatham Dockyard in the Medway article. This will leave Rochester Castle, Cliffe Fort and Cooling Castle to have a brief piece of context each in the Meway article, and links to their own articles. (I'm supposedly working on Cooling - don't hold your breath...) Oh, and then comes the WWII stuff, I suppose (pill boxes: what else?).

Sources:

Cliffe fort Underground Kent, mentioned above Other Wikilinks:

Brennan Torpedo Royal Marines [edit] North Kent Then either expand to North Kent Forts (talk to User:Nuttah68 about this) and refer to Medway and the Chatham Defences, plus New Tavern Fort, Shornemead Fort, etc; or have an article on the Thames Defences (ie Kent and Essex).

[edit] Pictures Start at Wikimedia Commons, Wiki's central library, to see what already exists. I'll show you how to put images in, it's really easy whether they come from Commons or en.wiki.

[edit] overall As you can see, it's all a bit of a hodge podge - so organising this lot would be a good idea. Perhaps talk to some of the people who have worked on other articles, and now I think of it there's Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. Obviously it's good if whatever we do for Medway fits what other people have done elsewhere.

I'm not sure whether the topic warrants its own template, or just a load of "See also"s, and I don't know how to do a template. I'll ponder both, and perhaps you could get advice on this?

Overall, don't be too worried about getting stuff briefly wrong in articles (ref it and I will chk it - see WP:CITE for help on referencing what you write.) But only create an article when you're sure of the title, cos changing them is a pain.

Phew. Well, you asked :-) JackyR | Talk 00:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


damn thats alot.

what do u reckon i should call the article, Fortifications of Medway?

I've asked User:Nuttah68 to drop in here, as he can probably advise better on that. One Q is, are we looking at the fortifications from the point of view of Medway folk ("I live here, this is what I what I see around me"), or from the point of view of military strategy (Defence of Chatham dockyard, Defence of the thames and London, etc.) That would decide what the articles are called how the articles are grouped. My own feeling is that the separate articles should be on military lines; the Medway perspective should be part of the Medway article until it gets too big and is spun off. JackyR | Talk 19:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC) thx, thats alot of info and i am yet undecided on what i am going to do, but i got an idea.

just a question

what articles r there already on the forts around chatham, north kent etc that i may need to see?

Pratj 11:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the blue links in the above, and particularly Palmerston Forts, Chatham. I've already found a spelling mistake in one list, so maybe search Wikipedia (and Google!) for "Chatham fort" or similar. Btw, if you want to move this stuff onto a separate page for working on, you could create your own subpage User:Pratj/Fortifications of Medway. This would be part of your user-space, not the main encyclopedia, so it's no big deal. Hats off to you for being willing to try all this! JackyR | Talk 18:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC) thx, u gotta start somewhere. i was just surprised when i didnt find any articles about it.

ill start a new page for it then. btw 1 quick question, how do i do that?

Pratj 18:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)



Click on this: Fortifications in the Medway area (if this title is OK). It will offer to create an article for you: just start typing! JackyR | Talk 19:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a book on this floating around my house somewhere, i can help out quiet a bit with this. IMHO there is the first wave - Fort Clarence, Fort Pitt, the Great Lines (inc Fort Amherst) and Fort Gillingham. There is then the second wave built under Gladstone in the latter half of the nineteenth century (then known as Gladstone's Folly) to counter the threat of French invasion (Napoleon III i presume, the book never said) - there was an ambitious plan that was curtailed to the 3 Thames forts, and then the Medway forts - Fort Borstal, Fort Bridgewood, Fort Luton, and the Twydal (sp) redoubts (sp again). Pickle 07:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

the more the merrier Pratj 14:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From me

JackyR asked me to look at this, saying that I might beable to help: I did teach in the area, and was formerly in the Army, but not there. The reference I have is called Kent History Illiustrated by Frank W Jessup (KCC 1966): it has a chapter headed "Defence against the French 1750-1860". I am sure it is well out of print. Hoping that you will forgive me if I am telling you what you already know:

  • Seven Years War convinced the Government that Chatham Dockyard needed defending - not from the sea but the land (eg from the ridge of hills overlooking the Dockyard)
  • Entrenchments were built and the Chatham Lines were a mile in length by 1758: Gillingham Reach to Chatham Reach
  • 1778: renewal of war with French; survey showed defences were inadequate for both the Thames and Medway.
  • Later forts constructed 1800-1920

[edit] Chatham Lines

Very irregular, since built piecemeal and to fit the ground irregularity. From west (Chatham) to east (Gillingham):

  • Amherst Redoubt (Fort Amherst) (actually three redoubts) strengthened after 1778
  • Spur Battery - Casemate Barracks (later St Mary's Barracks) the main defence line, bastioned and protected by outworks
  • additional and later defence known as the New Ravelin gave increased flank fire east-west

[edit] Royal Commission 1860(?)

Following accession of Emperor Napoleon III Government again set up the Royal Commission, which recommended 76 new forts be built in various parts of the country, included the Medway and Lower Thames (which is, after all, where the Medway meets the Thames and cannot really be divorced from it). As a result:

  • other, later, forts protecting Chatham:
    • Fort Delce
    • Fort Pitt
    • Fort Clarence
    • Fort Luton
  • here also is where many of the later forts were situated.

I think you already have mentioned it but here there is a good map & list. There are also some good photos here. Again, forgive me, I Googled for them! I hope I have been of some help. The local libraries have more, I am sure

The book I mentioned has a good plan of the Chatham Lines, although I am not sure how to get it to Wikipedia!. Regards Peter Shearan 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

thx, any more help would be really appreciated, now i just need to find the time to organise it all and get started.

i know this is kind of off topic and this isnt a forum but seeing as u were in the army i don't wanna miss the opportunity to ask someone who knows.

would u recommend joining the forces? ive always had that on my mind and when i turn 18 ive always thought of joining the royal marines. but since it is so hard if i fail to become a marine maybe just joining the navy or the army as an officer would be good. Pratj 20:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For refrence / merge / cref / etc - Palmerston Forts, Chatham