Talk:Pratimoksha

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just some short ideas to overwork the article:

There exist nowadays three Pratimoksha Lineages: The Chinese, The Theravada and Tibetan Lineage. All three should be put in the article. I add here an abstract of the Tibetan Lineage written by Je Tsongkhapa which belongs to the Mulasrvastavadin Pratimokhsa Lineage:


The Essence of the Vinaya Ocean
By Je Tsong Khapa
OM. May it be well.
Homage to the Omniscient One.
The means dependent on which one goes
With ease to liberation’s city,
The Sugata’s doctrine’s supreme essence,
Which is known as pratimoksha,
I shall explain in six parts: nature,
Divisions, the recognition of each,
Bases in which it is produced,
Causes of loss, and benefits.
a) Nature
It is, with thought of renunciation
Acting as cause, to turn away
From harm to others and its base.
Our higher and lower schools have two
Modes of assertion: that it has form,
Being karma of body and speech;
Or that it is the constantly coming
Will to abandon, with its seed.
b) Divisions
Pratimoksha is of eight types:
Fasting, layman and laywoman,
Male and female novices,
Nun probationer, full nun, full monk.
The first three are householders’vows,
The last five, vows of those gone forth.
c) The Recognition of Each
c1) Fasting (Upavasa) Vows
Fasting vows are to abandon
Eight things - four roots and four branches.
Incontinence, to take the ungiven,
Killing and false speech are four roots.
Great or high beds, drinking liquor,
Dance, song, garlands and so forth,
And afternoon eating are four branches.
c2) Lay-Followers’ (Upasaka & Upasika) Vows
Vows of lay-followers are to abandon
Killing, theft, lies, sexuall misconduct, and intoxicating drink.
Six lay-followers: those who practise
One, some, most rules, or completely,
The continent, and those of refuge.
They are lay-followers who, in order,
Abandon one, two, three of the four roots,
Sexuall misconduct, and incontinence;
Or just of refuge, we assert.
c3) Novices’ (Sramanera & Sramanerika) Vows
Novice vows are to abandon
Ten things - four roots and six branches.
Amusements and adornments, as two;
Three; and accepting gold and silver -
This division makes six branches.
Adding three kinds of falling away -
From making request to one’s preceptor -
Leaving aside householder’s marks,
And wearing the marks of one gone forth -
Thirteen things are to be abandoned.
c4) Probationer Nun’s (Siksamana) Vows
The discipline of a probationer nun
Is, after taking novice vows,
Vow of avoidance - six root rules
And six secondary rules.
Not to go on the road alone,
Not to swim across a river,
Not to touch a male person,
Not to sit with a male alone,
Not to act as go-between,
And not to conceal non-virtue
Are the six root rules of avoidance.
Not to pick up golden treasure,
Not to shave one’s pubic hair,
Not to eat food not received,
Not to eat what has been hoarded,
Not to excrete on green herbage,
Not to dig the soil - these six
Abandonments are the secondary rules.
c5) Full Nun’s (Bhikshuni) Vows
Eight defeats, twenty suspensions,
Thirty-three lapses with forfeiture,
A hundred and eighty simple lapses,
Eleven offences to be confessed
And the hundred and twelve misdeeds
Make three hundred and sixty-four
Things the bhikshuni abandons.
c6) Full Monk’s (Bhikshu) Vows
Four defeats, thirteen suspensions,
Thirty lapses with forfeiture,
Ninety simple lapses, then
Four offences to be confessed
And the hundred and twelve misdeeds -
Added together, two hundred and
Fifty-three things the bhikshu avoids.
Bases in which it is Produced
These eight types of pratimoksha are produced in the bases of men and women of three continents, except Kuru, but not such as eunuchs, hermaphrodites and neuters.
Causes of Loss
Causes of losing vows are two.
Common Causes
Giving back the training, death, two sexes appearing, changing thrice, and cutting one’s roots of virtue are common.
Special Causes
Learning one was not yet twenty, agreeing to serve, and the day’s elapsing are special to, respectively, bhikshus, probationer nuns, and fasters.
Some assert the vows are lost if one commits a root offence or if the holy Dharma vanishes. Vaibhashikas of Kashmir assert one with vows with a root offence is like a rich man with a debt.
Benefits
From keeping these vows, one will gain the temporal fruit, divine or human birth, and the ultimate fruit, the three awakenings. Since this is taught, the energetic always keep the pratimoksha, devotedly striving.
Dedication
By this virtue, may embodied beings throughout their rebirths live in pure conduct.

added by Kt66 10:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Merger with Patimokkha article

I'm adding the entire list. So the argument is moot, IMO. Vapour

we have to make three devisions for a general Pratimoksha article: Therevada, Chinese and for the Tibetan Pratimoksha Lineage. This will make sense, I think. Can you do this? Kt66 15:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] caution on merger

I don't think merger is wanted here. Adding 3 patimokkhas will, firstly, just make the page too long and add unnecessary text for people who want to know about just one of those patimokkhas. Also in Theravada the meaning of patimokkha is usually limited to secion c5 and c6 of Tsjong Khapa's poem. All the rest are still sila and are patimokkha in a way, but are not commonly referred to with the word patimokkha. Tsong Khapa's poem is some kind of patimokkha, but not the patimokkha when speaking about the specific texts of the Vinaya Pitaka. At best this poem is a commentary. The 'patimokkha of the Vinaya Pitaka' is the central meaning of the word patimokha as used in Theravada. Also in China this is the case I think. I'm not too sure about Tibet. Currently the page on patimokkha is suitable for Theravada, and agrees with how the word patimokkha is used in the Theravada--Sacca 03:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge of the three Vinaya Lineages

it would be good to make a merge of the Pratimoksha of Tibetan Lineage, the Patimokkha of the Theravada Lineage and the Dharmaguptaka Lineage. These three are the present existing Ordination Lineage of the Buddha deriving from his disciples to the present...By the way I will try to improve this article and to give more details for the interested reader. --Kt66 17:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged Article Too Long

I don't believe we should merge them. The resulting single article would become very long. What do other people think about the possibility of using categories or table templates to group the three articles (and other germane topics) so that users can find the information they need? --Deebki 04:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, let's do this. --Kt66 23:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)