Talk:Prague groschen

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Contents

[edit] On the title

Prague grosh or Prager Groschen, what is the common English name for the coin from Prague? Or the one issued in Cracow? Or in general, Grosh, groat, or Groschen? Let's ask Google, but mainly let's search the American Numismatic Society's curatorial database of coins:

  • Record contains: grosh No records in the ANS database match your search
  • Record contains: grosssi Search returned 5 records
  • Record contains: grossus Search returned 13 records
  • Record contains: grosch Search returned 15 records (added later, not singular of Groschen)
  • Record contains: grossi Search returned 44 records
  • Record contains: grosz Search returned 81 records
  • Record contains: groat Search returned 330 records
  • Record contains: groschen Search returned 2908 records


  • Record contains: prag Search returned 7 records
  • Record contains: pragenses Search returned 29 records
  • Record contains: prager Search returned 30 records.
  • Record contains: prague Search returned 485 records
  • Record contains: prague Record contains: grosch No records in the ANS database match your search (added later)
  • Record contains: prague Record contains: groschen Search returned 15 records
  • Record contains: grossi Record contains: pragenses Search returned 24 records
  • Record contains: prager Record contains: groschen Search returned 29 records


  • Record contains: kraków No records in the ANS database match your search.
  • Record contains: krakow Search returned 9 records.
  • Record contains: cracow Search returned 12 records
  • Record contains: krakau Search returned 61 records
  • Record contains: krakau Record contains: groschen Search returned 61 records

Sorry, but grosh is obviously a "original research" translation from slavic grosz, on the internet only due to the Wikipedia articles created by a few authors from, or due to ebay offers.


I'll change all articles. -- Matthead discuß!     O       10:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You're mixing Polish singular "grosz" with German plural "Groschen". If you want to compare it should be "grosz" against "Grosch" and Google gets you 2 million vs 1 million. What is English for grosz/Grosch ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lysy (talk • contribs) 12:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Lysy, there are links given above that clearly show that Groschen is used for the actual coins, by American Numismatic Society and others, in English. Let's once again (Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk) assume good faith and apply Hanlon's razor for this unspecified Google search, comparing the Polish POV with a hypothetical "Grosch" that is neither a German nor an English name for a coin.-- Matthead discuß!     O       22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Lysy. And remember WP:UE: grosh is better then grosch(en) or grosz. And Krakau groschen seems to be unused even on German websites - complete OR.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Piotrus, see above, there is no "grosh" in English nor Grosch in German that would apply to the coin, these words are only visible from your own Polish POV that has introduced it to Wikipedia, as the article history proves. That kind of "translation" may have been okay for a stub to start with, but now you better accept the facts, no original research WP:NOR. Besides, in German, its Krakauer Groschen, but as shown above, American Numismatic Society calls it Krakau Groschen. -- Matthead discuß!     O       22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Only one German site used Krakau Groschen; it is you who is trying to force an OR Germanized name in English Wikipedia; please stop.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

On Grosch/en
Incorrect assumption (singular Grosch, plural Groschen)

Groschen is singular as well as plural

  • 1 Groschen or 10 Groschen-
  • Grosch is a made up thing.

The correct name of the coin is Prager Groschen

  • 1 Prager Groschen or 10 Prager Groschen

Labbas 8 January 2007

Per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Article_titles: Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation. What is the local name of this coin?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The usual simple tests

Google Print test:

Google Scholar test:

Amazon.com test:

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Books in English

  • Trade and Urban Development in Poland: An Economic Geography of Cracow, from its Origins to 1795, by Francis W. Carter, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-412390, p.38, 67 & 75:
    One of these currencies was the 'Prague Grossus' which the Polish king,...
    ...enjoyed by the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), unfortunately...
    based on the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), provided a stable coinage...
  • The Price of Freedom: a history of East Central Europe from the Middle Ages to the present, by Piotr Stefan Wandycz, Second edition, Routledge, 2001, ISBN 0-415-25491-4, p.34:
    ...the two countries - where the Prague silver grossus and the Hungarian golden florin...

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prague groschen

Thanks Evv. "Prague groschen" it is, then. --Lysytalk 09:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, this seems like the acceptable compromise (English locality name, local coin name, per our policies).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Thats actually a thinly disguised vote for Krakow grozs. As "our policies" (pluralis majestatis?) are concerned, where were WP:V and WP:NOR when you created the articles, or in the year that passed since? -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
My pleasure, and yes, it would comply with WP:V & WP:NC :-)
If Matthead and Labbas agree on Prague groschen, I guess that we could do the move ourselves. If they don't (or if anyone wishes to do so), I propose to file a proper three-way move request at WP:RM:
This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)
Prague grosh -> Prague groschen or Prager Groschen.
This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)
I almost always prefer a proper move request :-) just in case other uninvolved editors (especially German ones) may be interested in have their say. But I leave the decission to you, that have much more experience here than I do. - Best regards, Evv 00:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead if you with, or maybe Matthead and Labbas are faster with their support for consensus :-) --Lysytalk 02:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

First, I want to point out that we talk here Talk:Prague grosh while the article is at Prager Groschen, as Talk:Prager Groschen was write-protect due to an edit by Lysy. I filed a request to fix this at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2007 January 12#Talk:Prager Groschen → Talk:Prague_grosh. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This will actually help with the timeline. Immediatly after a decision is made regarding where to unify article and talk page, I will file a proper move request to Prague groschen at WP:RM. - Best regards, Evv 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Second, I want to point out that a similar survey is going on a Talk:Kraków grosh. I want to have consistent results, e.g. Prague groschen and Cracow groschen (actually Prager Groschen and Krakauer Groschen/Krakau Groschen would be very well justified either, but ... ). I'm not going to accept that the Cracow coin, which was inspired by the earlier Prague coin, gets an "English" name that combines two slavic words, backed up with only one source, and the additional need to disamb between a currency that was actually named so only 400 years later - unlike the 14th century coin, which was named in Latin and became known in Western Europe and in English by the name German merchants used, like its Prager sibling, and many others. I'm sorry that Germany is not only located between the British Isles and Prague/Cracow, but these cities were as Prag and Krakau also part of the German-speaking Empires for quite some time. See the ANS database, it shows how coins were actually known over the centuries. Authors of modern books apparently often apply recent names for simplicity, with a disclaimer that explains the reasons which get overlooked in Google searches (I included the one of Francis W. Carter at Talk:Kraków grosh, stating also Cracow not Krakow).

I'm sure some editors of English Wikipedia are trying hard to correct what they perceive as problems - I've been told here for example that Germany did not exist prior to 1871. Or that Grosch is the German singular of Groschen. Or that grosh is the proper English term for groschen (any source yet, after one year? No! still listed as options in both surveys? Yes!). As the German and in case of Cracow, even English names are concerned, these get painted over as present local terms are falsely applied to every period of history for politial correctness, consistency (a.k.a laziness), and due to "home team advantage".

At the end, Wikipedia will join Britannica in falsely claiming that the Kraków grozs was called so since the 14th century! BTW, what currency was Judas paid in? Money from Rome, 30 Euro coins, as shown by 26500 hits for Judas got 30 Euro coins. Would someone please edit the Bible article? Wikipedians know better, they create The Truth which is then quickly spread by Google as the Word of the Lord. -- Matthead discuß!     O       12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether it's adequate or not, in English-language publications Prague groschen appears to constitute common English usage regarding this coin. On those grounds, I will file a proper move request to Prague groschen after this article and its talk page are unified.
Of course, I may be wrong in my interpretation of Wikipedia's naming conventions (which wouldn't be surprising, since I am wrong about many many things much more often than I like to admit :-) and thus I'm always open to be persuaded by other arguments. Anyway, during that move request the input of other so far uninvolved editors will help us to decide the issue. - Best regards, Evv 13:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prager Groschen

A note on Prager Groschen versus Prague... Prager Groschen was a German coin, because Prag was for many centuries a part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. If changed to Prague Groschen, it specifically needs to be pointed out, that it was a Prager Groschen, because no such thing as Prague Groschen existed. In Latin it was Praga, but when did the Prague spelling come into existense?

With Krakau, Krakow, Cracow, Groschen, it is a bit different, because Cracow was many centuries in Poland, even though it was also a Hanseatic city for some time with at least half of the burghers and craftsmen Germans and 300 years later Austrian. Labbas 12 January 2007

Yes, and similarly "it specifically needs to be pointed out, that it was a koruna česká, because no such thing as Czech koruna existed", right ? This however does not mean that we would be renaming Czech koruna to koruna česká. --Lysytalk 20:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Labbas, English-language publications refer to this coin as Prague groschen, and in accordance to Wikipedia naming conventions (especially WP:UE) that usage is the one this article should reflect.
That the coin is known in German as Prager Groschen is a clear fact that should be mentioned in the article's body, just as Lysy explained above, but is irrelevant for the specific purposes of naming the article. - Best regards, Evv 20:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Evv, Lysy, Matthead,

Google shows about 39.000 for Prager Groschen

about 12.000 for Prague Groschen

The Prager Groschen were coined in Kuttenberg, not in Prag, now Prague.

Their name was never Prague Groschen. If some English language sources call them Prague, instead of Prag, that is only a caving in, or a P.C., or just an easy out.

I suppose redirects showing both Prague and Prager could work, where people who either search Prager Gr or Prague Gr will come to the same site.

Top line:

  • Prager Groschen (in English often referred to as Prague groschen, Czech ... etc) were Groschen coins minted in Kuttenberg...

Matthead, Lysy, Evv, how about this? Labbas 12 January 2007

Same answer as before :-) Best regards, Evv 19:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Labbas, it could be a helpful extension to the intro of the article, be bold and edit it in. Or save the effort, as I expect that as soon as the Cracow version of the medieval silver coins has been pushed to the desired "English name", a move request will be made to move this article to a name of a similar English structure: Praha groš - as supported by Google hits for very respectable scholars.[1] -- Matthead discuß!     O       11:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Prague groschen is supported by "the usual simple tests", which for all their shortcomings are far more reliable than a simple unrestricted google search. - Best regards, Evv 19:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, real simple test: about 300 books Prager Groschen versus about 30 Prague Groschen - greetings Labbas 14 January 2007
Take a closer look at that search: it's 263 books using Prager Groschen, of which only 3 are in English, versus 23 books using Prague groschen, all of which are in English. If you haven't done so yet, please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (especially "Use English words") & Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). - Best regards, Evv 12:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Evv, thanks for your involved work on this. While Prague groschen is better than grosch, or grosh, none of them are factual names ever used on the coins though. About English on English wikipedia, your message is wonderful, please direct that to users like Serafin/131.. sample Talk:Jan Dzierżon and please also apply that to the vast amount of non-english places and person names (sample: search for John Dlugosz, English name for historian, need to change to non-english Jan Długosz). Thanks so much. Labbas 15 January 2007

Book results:

  • Prague groschen, a made-up name, which in actuality did not exist for the coin is used in 23 books in English (perhaps many Polish translations to English)
  • Prager Groschen, the factual name, is used in 263 books in Czech, Latin and German language

Greetings- Labbas 15 January 2007

[edit] Requested move to Prague groschen

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was moved Patstuarttalk|edits 04:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Prager Groschen → Prague groschen — Move from the German name to the one commonly used in English books, per WP:UE and to reflect common English usage, as illustrated in the "Simple tests" sub-section below. - Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add #'''Move''' or #'''Keep''' in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation (with further comment in the "Discussion" section), then sign your opinion with ~~~~

[edit] Move to Prague groschen.

  1. Move, as nominator. - Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support per results below. It would bend my credence to expect English to have retained the inflected German adjective. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support. Why was the article renamed to "Prager Groschen" anyway ? --Lysytalk 23:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack  04:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keep at Prager Groschen.

[edit] Simple tests

A more comprehensive search can be seen in the "The usual simple tests" section above.

Google Print test:

Google Scholar test:

Amazon.com test:

Best regards, Evv 09:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Book results:

  • Prague groschen, a made-up name, which in actuality did not exist for the coin is used in 23 books in English (perhaps many Polish translations to English)
  • Prager Groschen, the factual name, is used in 263 books in Czech, Latin and German language

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.31.82 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move to Pražský groš, per the discussion below. I am leaving open the subsequent question as to whether there should be a move to Prague groš. Dekimasuよ! 09:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Prague groschen → Pražský groš — Because there is no english equivalent then per naming conventions an official name has to be used. —≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 19:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
Not German too, groschen is a German name. Thus per naming convention groš has to be used. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 18:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose I've run a google book search on the three terms with the following result:
15 hits for "Pražský groš": none in English, the rest in (I presume) Czech
387 hits* for "Prager Groschen": 15 in English, the rest mostly in German
45 hits* for "Prague groschen": 41 in English, four cannot be previewed, none in German
* When I enter "Prague Groschen", it says "54 hits" but when I reach the last page, it goes down to "45". It's more extreme with "Prager Groschen", which resulted in 637 hits, a number that went back to 387 on the last page.
"Prague Groschen" is undoubtedly the winner. Sciurinæ 20:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I will recall Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation (e.g., Czech koruna, not Czech crown). If the currency name contains non-ASCII characters, use them (e.g., Polish złoty). Be sure to include a redirect from the ASCII version (e.g., Polish zloty) from Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Article_titles. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
In other words, you're applying a guideline for "Articles about a specific country's currency", which doesn't seem rational to me. And in the absurd scenario that this guideline should apply, another would apply as well according to the link you cited, namely that the name of this "country" in the title should be in English. That's something "Pražský groš" would not even fulfill, either. So my answer remains oppose. Sciurinæ 21:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support -for reasons already supplied above.--Molobo 08:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The coin's original name is in Latin, so either use the Latin name or the English translation Prague groschen (how German-centric it may seem) since it seems to be in use. feydey 10:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per Sciurinæ's rationale. "Prague groš" would be an alternative suggested by WP:Numismatics, but "Prague groschen" is phrasing used considerably more often in English. Olessi 20:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Official language? I doubt there was one in the sense we use now but it would've been grossi pragenses anyway. — AjaxSmack 02:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The wording of the style guide used by the nominator was clearly intended for modern currencies, and doesn't apply to Medieval coinage.
    That leaves us with the main criterion of our naming conventions policy: to follow common English usage1 2, that is, to adopt the name used by the majority of English-language reliable sources to refer to the subject of this article.
    I believe that in the course of the last move request it was clearly demostrated that Prague groschen is the form commonly used in English-language publications3 4, and that the article is properly named already. It's up to the nominator to demostrate that English-language reliable sources use "Pražský groš", "Prague gros" or any other form more frequently than the current title. - Ev 05:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:
  • Comment. One thing is for sure, the name should be changed. There are two relevant versions of name for this currency: German - Prager Groschen and Czech - Pražský groš. I would be probably in favour of the Czech name but will wait for the comments of other people, especially specialists who in such cases browse Google Books and then present the results. - Darwinek 20:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand why Prager groschen when it is in german ? ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the move is warrented, the name should be in English and not another language. Enlil Ninlil 20:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no english name. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Now there is, also what are the sub-divisions of this currency unit? Enlil Ninlil 21:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
No it is not, groschen is german. What has sub-divisions to do with its name? ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 21:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • This is English Wikipedia. Read the old discussions for evidence for the current name.-- Matthead discuß!     O       18:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
So why do we use German name groschen ? ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 18:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
We have no english equivalent or any use for the word, so English borrowed the German spelling for the coin, but Prague is the English spelling for the city. And the word Prague would be used more that groschen in everyday sense. Enlil Ninlil 04:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Requested move 2: Prague gros

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 05:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

And what about Prague gros ? ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 08:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

  • Oppose for the same reasons mentioned above in relation to Pražský groš, and per results below. - Ev 05:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support per naming conventions. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 19:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. For better or worse, groschen is the most used term in English. And this nomination should be for groš, not gros, based on typical Wikipedia approach to use of diacritics. — AjaxSmack 19:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simple tests for groš & gros

Google Books test:

Google Scholar test:

Amazon.com test:

Best regards, Ev 20:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the naming conventions

Naming conventions: Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation (e.g., Czech koruna, not Czech crown). If the currency name contains non-ASCII characters, use them (e.g., Polish złoty). Be sure to include a redirect from the ASCII version (e.g., Polish zloty).

≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 20:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of convenience I copy here, slightly altered, my previous comment on naming conventions:
The wording of the style guide used by the nominator comes from the "Articles about a specific country's currency" section, which was clearly intended for modern currencies, and doesn't apply to Medieval coinage.
That leaves us with the main criterion of our naming conventions policy: to follow common English usage1 2, that is, to adopt the name used by the majority of English-language reliable sources to refer to the subject of this article.
I believe that in this talk page it has been clearly demostrated that Prague groschen is the form commonly used in English-language publications3 4 5, and that the article is properly named already.
For the name to be changed, it has to be established that English-language reliable sources use "Prague gros", "Prague groš", "Pražský groš" or any other form more frequently than the current title. - Regards, Ev 21:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Tulkolahten, I think, if we have to use here the convention "an official name has to be used" then we should to use "grossi pragenses". But this is plural form, however Google finds 95 hits in english pages. So, if we are lookoing for the alternative to the "Prague groschen", "Pražský groš" is not the way, may be "Grossi Pragenses" Honzula 09:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
You are right guys. I think we should close this vote, in fact it was not supposed as a vote (->Prague gros) but closing administrator did it. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 09:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.