Talk:Powers and abilities of Superman

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Contents

[edit] Overview beta one

This lacts cites, is fanon and reads like time cube. I'm going to delete it, obviously feel free to revert. The Sando 21:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current powers

Is there any way we could denote which powers are relevent to the current Superman character? --Chris Griswold 07:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a new section called something like Powers exhibited in the past. That would make it easy to move them back and forth as his abilities change/evolve/get retconned. CovenantD 15:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I took out the remark about modern use of "Super Voice" because I could not find any of the cited examples in any of my books. --Wakefencer 01:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Please don't; He has used it a few times, but they are sporadic.

Can you give me one example? I have quite the collection, and I'm more than happy to check.--Wakefencer 12:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure of the actual issue number; But I recall he once used it to disrupt a bombs detonation device before tossing it away. Another occasion, he disrupted a large robot which was using some sort of device to disguise its appearance. Superman used his voice to cancel out the device and then cause the robot itself to detonate.

I really hope he doesn't have that ability any more, that's just too over the top. As for the continued All-Star references guys, I really don't think we need to mention it twice in the same article, certainly not using the same wording. I'm sure we all got the idea that the sun makes him very very strong, and that in All-Star Superman his cells are bursting.--Wakefencer 23:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

He does have the ability, its just not on the level of counter acting nukes. It's one of his more technical abilites, often used by writers who want to up play his intelligence. Regardless of weither you think he should have it, he has it; It stays.

I didn't argue the point. I'm just saying that I haven't seen any issue post-crisis where he uses that ability. If he has fine, I was just remarking that I thought it makes hime even more of a Deus Ex Machina then he already is. I'm not trying to fight about this.--Wakefencer 13:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I know; I was just being assertive, builds character.

You just reminded me of the section I added about different continuities. I mentioned that there have been examples of Superman's powers that have taken place in comics that aren't part of the DCU. Looking over the article, numerous comic book series have been cited for examples of Superman using certain powers. My question is, since I'm so out of touch, which of the series mentioned are canon and which aren't? Odin's Beard 00:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

That's one of the biggest problems surrounding the introduction of various titles; It seems there is so much contradiction.

It should also be important to describe which abilities are no longer used and what the most current abilities as of now are. One ability that needs to make clear is where it says "Super Hypnosis" which obiously is not even of now an official man of steel ability. Nathen

[edit] Needs clarifying

Byrne never removed the yellow sun as the power source, he simply used telekinesis as an explanation for flight and pyrokinesis as an explanation of heat vision. It was Superboy (Kon-el) who was introduced years later who was given telekinetic powers without the yellow sun as the source of his powers at all.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Spookyadler (talk • contribs)

[edit] Kryptonite

Can i know whether kryptonite is easily available, and can anyone obtain it ?

Seeing it dosn't exist, it would be impossible to obtain, =P. ..but anyways, it depends.. On.. The story.. Mehuck.. Wesz 11:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you might be referring to the element Krypton, which is an actual element on the Periodic Table. Odin's Beard 00:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Written as real?

This article uses language so as to suggest that it is not about a fictional character but about a real figure such as:

    • Superman has manifested a wide range of metahuman abilities and is considered to be one of the most powerful metahumans on Earth at the present time and all around.

I dont think this language is appropriate for this entry. Asteron 15:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] 'The Analaysis of Superman'

Whoever edited this article to paste in information from this website; http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/superman/superman.html please don't. The information is sorely out of date and I will remove it.

[edit] Diffrent Continuities

The article is filled with examples of Superman's powers that've taken place in alternate realities/timelines. For example, anything pertaining to All Star Superman title, or Kingdom Come or any of the various animiated series that he's appeared in, since it takes place outside of the DC continuity, then shouldn't it be left out? Odin's Beard 00:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with the Kindom Come section and the resistance to magic claim. The lightning bolt Marvel uses is aimed at the place Marvel is standing at when saying Shazam, for it to be used as a weapon Marvel have to move out of the way. We se the movement and we se Superman wounded by the lightning bolts, evident by the bleeding from his (Supermans) nose and ears. In page 177 in the trade paperback Superman is hit by a lightning bolt, says 'enough' and Marvel is seen pausing and almost gloating. A few frames later Marvel calls a new lightning bolt and we see Supermans hand speeding towards Marvel. After an explosion we see Superman holding Billy Batson instead of Marvel. This makes me read the scene as Marvel gloating and allowing Superman to recover enough from the previous lightning strike to prevent Marvel from moving out of the way, not Superman suddenly resisting the lightning bolt. Also, Marvel's cape comes loose when he overtakes Superman and pushes him down, and a flailing Superman grips the cape. That doesn't seem like gaining the ability to rip of the cape, it seems like a dramatic, scinematic moment more than anything else.

[edit] Weaknesses

The intro to this section is a little questionable. Listing things Superman can't do is different than listing weaknesses. He can't breath underwater or change his skin color, but I don't think I'd count those as weaknesses. Are inability to donate blood, have surgery without special tools or "sweat under earthly conditions" really weaknesses? The same with the discussion on progeny. Doesn't seem to belong in the weakness section. Maybe this would be better suited for the main superman article (?). I recommend scrapping the whole intro and just jumping into the magic discussion. Anyone else? --CPitt76 01:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ordinarily, I'd completely agree. However, comic book writers seem determined to make Superman capable of just about any feat, no matter how titanic or miniscule that it might be. The article is full of examples, numerous ones, about how Superman's powers, his origin, his homeworld, his costume, etc. have been tinkered with by so many people over so many decades that it's hard to discern what the character is capable of doing now because they switch up his powers like regular people switch underwear. So, anything that he can't do that seems to be of some merit I think should be included. I think that maybe the whole skin color thing is a bit much. However, I think that him being unable to have children does bear mentioning because it's an interesting little tidbit. But, who knows, the way they tinker around with him, in a few months they'll do a storyline where he has a busload of kids scattered all over the Mid-West. Odin's Beard 02:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] powers used before or made just for the movie

The Fact that the ending sequence in superman: the movie consists of Superman stopping the earthquake of california by flying around the world at max velocity rusulting in reversing the earths' orbit and time itself on earth, well this really raises a big question I do not know of too much.

I have always assumed that the movie invented that gimick of reversing time by flying fast around the earth as a prominent ability of superman. But that's Really not one of his real powers is'nt it.

I have seen that parodied in places about the time travel thing. But THAT ability I am so Sure of IS ABSOLUTELY not super power for the man of steel.

CAN Someone explain this to me pease?

During the 1960s, 70s, and first half of the 80s, the writers of the Superman comics kept jacking his powers up to ludicrous levels and kept adding powers to him. By the middle of the 1980s, Superman had been toyed with to such an extreme, writers retconning everything from his origin to his powers to his power source, etc. that nobody knew what to make of him. Basically, over the decades, Superman was transformed into a nearly omnipotent being with no limitations. This not only made the character uninteresting, it brought sales of the comics he appeared in down. It kept happening. Some people believe that it's one of the things that really allowed Marvel Comics to truly get their foot in the door. After all, it's hard to come up with an interesting scenario or a respectable villain for a character that's been transformed into God. When the character was revamped back in 1985, much of his "omnipotence" was removed. His strength, his flight speed, his invulnerability, etc. were all dramatically reduced. He had limits now. Of course, this brassed off longtime, hardcore fans and, over the last 21 years, writers have slowly jacked up his powers once more to an extent. However, as far as I know right now, Superman can't do the whole thing where he turns back time, I'm pretty sure that's just something they put into the original Superman film. He can't fly faster than light speed, he can't travel through time or any of that other stuff. However, writers fiddle around with his powers, add new powers, or even change his powers like I change underwear. So, by this time next year, who knows. Odin's Beard 23:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Healing factor

We are talking about Superman's power as a FICTIONAL character in the REAL world, not what is in universe right now. DKR is still part of the Superman mythos in the real world. It is for this reason that some Golden age are mentioned. Wether or not it is in the main universe is irrlelent, since the article must appeal to non-comic fans as well. Besides, there are numberous examples of Superman healing, and he is listed on the healing factor page. T-1000 01:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If a storyline isn't part of a comic book universe's mainstream continuity, then it's not considered canon. You know as well as I do that you have eliminated noncanonical material from other comic book articles in the past. I'm afraid that it is relevant otherwise noncanon examples can be placed in other articles. If there are numerous canon examples, then list them. In the Powers and Abilities section of the Hulk for instance. Only the powers, capabilities, skills, etc. that he possesses in the mainstream Marvel Universe are listed. Otherwise, it'd fall within a section devoted to one of alternate reality Hulks. Odin's Beard 01:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed fancruff. Like I said before, Golden Age abilities are no longer canon, but they are listed here anyway, because they happened in the real wrold. We are not talking about Superman of only the minstream continuity here. Try to see this from an out of universe perspective. T-1000 04:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree this page should cover the character, not the post-Crisis continuity. This includes the radio, TV, and movie versions as well. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 06:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cystalb4

CystalB4, please explain your reverting. T-1000 02:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superman's regeneration

Superman's healing factor is confirmed by mutiple people here: [1]. T-1000 03:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC) Here as well, by an editor. [2]. T-1000 03:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] S Shield

In the section regarding his costume, it states that the most recent explanation to the S Shield is that it is the Kryptonian glyph for hope. The Smallville continuity would rule this out due to the fact that the symbol of hope was shown in season 3. In the most recent episodes of the series it has appeared to argue that the S is actually a family crest for the House of El, as the show put it. Also it has not been cited as to where the information about the shield came from. I may just be ranting but it seems to me that the most recent explanation to the meaning of the shield is the family crest of the House of El. Mushrambo 02:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed?

Someone has added a disputed tag to the article. Is there any dispute as to factuality here? As I'm not seeing any serious dispute here on the talk page, I'm removing the tag. If the person who added it feels it's valid, please justify it here. --Suttkus 14:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kryptonian Powers

Should the name of the article be changed to Kryptonian powers and abilities instead of Superman's powers and abilities? All Kryptonian's display these powers not just Superman. I know this will require a lot of editing, because Superman's name is listed all over the page. But, wouldn't it just be more acurate? Lyle A. Ruggles 22:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. - Pennyforth 20:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horrible article!

My apologies in advance to anyone how has greatly contributed to this page. That having been said, this page is horrible! 90% of the info reads like it’s original research. The page is written like the material is actually real and, with the exception of the occasional comic book reference (which are wrongly cited), this page has no citations whatsoever. Plus, this page is full of an ungodly amount POV statements and weasel words. I suggest that “correct” citations be used and all of the analysis/interpretations of how his powers work (beyond the yellow sun stuff) be completely scratched from the page. That would knock the page down 10’s of kilobytes. (Ghostexorcist 03:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

I must say, there has been a drastic improvement of the page! It looks like a level-headed person deleted all of the flak and added sections about his power levels under his various guises. --Ghostexorcist 10:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


Second Opinion

I wholeheartedly agree with the above user. I would also like to apologize in advance to whomever it was who created or made major edits to this article thus far, but honestly, I don't think I have read anything on Wikipedia that was this poorly researched, or this incoherent. The citations are weak and I feel dumber having read it, because it provided little to no information that was actually worth reading into. There are points of pure speculation and/or fabrication, and little to no signs of hard research. This article doesn't just need to be edited. It needs to be completely rewritten and reformatted from the ground up. Crumbworks 06:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Energy Powers

I'm not much of a Superman buff, so forgive me if this is irrelivent. I seem to remember Superman had some kind of energy based powers in the past that required a special blue suit to contain. I see no mention of this in the article. Is it worth adding? -- Jelly Soup 23:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

And with a simple search, Superman Red/Superman Blue. -- Jelly Soup 23:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speed

Post-Crisis Superman is actually faster than light. He's gone from Earth to Saturn in 4 minutes, and gone at the speed of light while in a Double Black Hole. Scans can be found at the Superman Respect thread at Super hero Chat or KMC Forums. Just thought that you should be mentioned. It's a common myth that Post-Crisis Superman can't exceed light speed.

Firstly, this is fiction and should not be treated like its not. Secondly, any forum info is garbage! Any info presented must come from a varifiable source. (Ghostexorcist 23:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC))

It’s not “Forum info”. There are scans of Superman flying faster than or at the speed of light. Scans are pages from Comic books. So pages from Post-Crisis comics published by DC Comics aren’t a verifiable source?

An example would be this scan.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7106/untitled138wy8fybc6.jpg

Superman going at 184,202 Miles Per Second. Pretty close to the speed of light. The rest of these scans can be found in respect threads. The latest Action Comic (#847) also confirms Post-Crisis Superman being faster than light, going several light years in less than 3 hours. -- Led Zeppelin Destroyer 23:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

Okay, I did a complete rewrite of the article and focused on powers and abilities alone. I categorized everything and created sections for the golden age, silver age, and modern era incarnations of the character, and added a section for film and television. There may be some formatting problems. Most of the information is available from sources like the Encyclopedia of the DC universe and the relevant comics, but I have no idea how to add citations. I eliminated anything that didn't pertain to Superman's powers (no vehicles, equipment, etc.). Hopefully the article reads better. 75.25.66.160 08:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

    • No offense, but I think it reads a bit worse. It had a lot of other stuff that was useful...
    • If there's anything you think needs to be restored from the old version please let me know. So much of it was badly written that I simply couldn't use it without taking the whole article apart. I assumed the article was simply meant to be a list of Superman's powers and nothing more. My goal was to organize the material so that each different version of Superman was represented, and restrict the article to Superman's powers, not his weaknesses, equipment, or scientific explaination of how they might work. Dallan007 19:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gscshoyru asked me for input about JJonz reverts

For what it's worth here is what I remember about the mentioned characters' comparative power-levels from memory alone. No claims are made that it's spotless, or the analysis is flawless, but it might be helpful for other people's check-ups and additions:

Despero has simultaneously and almost effortlessly manhandled Superman, Wonder Woman, Power Girl and Captain Marvel in JLA/JSA: Virtue & Vice. He severely outclassed the Martian Manhunter+Power Girl in old Justice League Europe/International issues, and was apparently treated as stronger than all the present Justice League members in the recent Infinite Crisis tie-in, although he was here also shown as far easier to injure than Superman, given that Aquaman managed to do so using his harpoon.

Captain Marvel has been stated as having powers rivalling those of Superman. Once even knocking him out with 1-2 punches by taking him by surprise, in Grant Morrisson's Justice League 5'th dimension JLA/JSA team-up, and Superman later commented in Superman/Batman (issue #4 I think) that Captain Marvel's magic-based abilities grant him the advantage in a fist-fight between them. Black Adam has power equal to Marvel's and stood up to the entire horde of assembled DC heroes in the "World War III" arc of the weekly year-long "52" book (Superman and Wonder Woman were disincluded), although he also possesses complete ruthlessness. Regardless Captain Marvel has beaten or reached draws against Adam in the past, and both have been given as virtually indestructible, (in the 52 profile) with none of Superman's specific weaknesses, but also lacking his senses and heat-vision advantage. In Busiek's JLA run Captain Marvel withstood a weapon which was stated as sufficient to kill any of the other heroes present, due to his magical 'omni-invulnerability'.

Power Girl has been swiftly beaten by both Black Adam (JSA: Black Reign) and Supergirl (Kandor arc of the recent series), placing her far below Superman. Wonder Woman was severely outmatched against Superman in an "OMAC Project" tie-in, but also managed to gain the upper hand in "Wonder Woman 175" (Superman wasn't in his right mind on either occasion, but was insane with rage in the former, and transformed and dim-witted in the second). Martian Mahunter has been repeatedly referred as matching Superman's raw power, and exceeding him in versatility, and was even shown as greatly exceeding it during Joe Kelly's Justice League run.

Superboy Prime has been explicitly shown and referred to as vastly superior to Superman in terms of power, being able to move planets, and was able to effortlessly kill 32 Green Lanterns singlehandedly, or stand up to the most powerful DC heroes, including two Supermen (the original 1939 version and the current). They were only able to beat him by first almost negating his powers, by pushing him through a red sun.

Darkseid has been consistently been swiftly (or rather swiftly) beaten in pure fist fights with Superman, ranging back to the John Byrne run, but also including recent years such as Jeph Loeb's Superman/Batman. His strength may or may not be comparative, but he is clearly outmatched in fisticuffs. However, his Omega Beams may be able to incinerate Superman, or at least cause him severe harm.

Doomsday was referred as strength level 27 compared to Superman's 25 in the DC Heroes RPG (over 2 and less than 8 times stronger), and was shown to have grown vastly more powerful during Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, even more so during the next special (being able to take on the entire JLA singlehandedly and keep the upper hand) but later returned after the Imperiex War, apparently vastly depowered and without his constantly power-enhancing 'evolution-factor'. He was now beaten with effort by Superman. More recently the two Supermen mentioned above together swiftly triumphed.

Zatanna, Doctor Fate and Spectre are not just able to defeat him due to magic, they have been shown with literally cosmic, sometimes even universe-shaking abilities. (Zatanna's Seven Soldiers special, Doctor Fate during the Infinite Crisis crossover and his old series, Spectre during almost every appearance) Doctor Fate was listed as level 40 in this game, with Spectre at level 45, while Zatanna has apparently been vastly powered-up. Hal Jordan, Green Lantern, was also listed at power level 30, but that may have been the powered-up insane 'Parallax' version.

Green Lantern I don't know how to compare, since his powers are so different. Some writers seem to view him as equal, others as possessing "Aladdin's Lamp"/being restricted only by his own will/virtually unbeatable by non-cosmic entities, and others as a regular Joe with a limited weapon. The haven't fought much. Parallax knocked out SUperman with one punch during Zero Hour, and I've heard that regular Hal Jordan once created a "green bomb" which knocked him out, but that's it. Best wishes. Dave 13:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Invulnerability?

I remember that Invulnerability was agreed not to be used, since it means that a character cannot be hurt, while however he has shown that he/she can be. Same thing applies to Superman. He has been damaged. So, why is Invulnerability being used? --- DCincarnate 03:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. "Extremely high durability", or maybe, maybe "near invulnerability" (which technically isn't true either) should be used instead. Beings nearly as strong, as strong, or stronger than himself hurt him all the time. Dave 09:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
"Invulnerability" is the word commonly associated with that aspect of Superman's powers, not "durability". See the Encyclopedia of Brittanica article, for example. Changing the word to "durability" might be technically correct, but it's splitting hairs. I've seen Superman referred to as "invulnerable" all my life; I've never seen him referred to as "durable". Rray 23:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Technically correct is better than incorrect. The Britannica link doesn't work. --Ghostexorcist 23:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
"Durable" still isn't the correct word, and I shouldn't have said that it was "technically correct". "Durable" means something that will last a long time or something that is resistant to wearing out. Sorry about the Britannica link. It worked when I went there via a search engine, but it doesn't work for me now either. (But "invulnerability" was the word used there. Maybe we should be looking for a third alternative that is actually correct? Rray 23:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
The term I like to use is "ni-invulnerability". I used this wording in one article, but another person from the comics project changed it to durability. --Ghostexorcist 00:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"Invulnerability" is the word that is commonly used to describe that aspect of Superman's powers. If the article needs to explain that Superman is not invulnerable to kryptonite and/or magic, then that's fine. "Durability" isn't even an accurate description of the power. Either "invulnerability" should be used, or an actually accurate term should be used, but "durability" is definitely not the correct word to use. Rray 17:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
And "omnipotent" is the term commonly applied to the power of Odin in comics. You'll find nothing in Odin's Wiki entry describing him as omnipotent and likewise for the Celestials, Galactus, and Eternity entries. My point is this, just because a character is described a certain way in the comics doesn't mean that description should carry over to an encyclopedic entry. Superman is not invulnerable just as Odin is not omnipotent despite both being described that way in numerous comics. Durability is most certainly the correct term to decribe his resistance to physical injury, the clarification is provided right there. Manssiere 18:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Go look up the definition of "durability". (I've looked up several.) It means resistant to wear and tear and long lasting. It doesn't have anything to do with having bullets bouncing off your chest. "Invulnerability" might not be the right word, but "durability" certainly isn't the right word either. "Invulnerability" is a lot closer in meaning, but another alternative should be found if you can't agree on that. It's also the word that's used in the Encyclopedia Brittanica article on Superman, so it's entirely appropriate to an entry in an encyclopedia. Rray 19:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Durability (noun) - permanence by virtue of the power to resist stress or force.
The defintion seems to fit the bill. Manssiere 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Not really, no. Words have connotations, and the connotation of "durability" isn't related to bullets bouncing off one's chest. Maybe "bulletproof" would be better. Regardless, Hiding's point below about summarising the sources is right on the money. This article should use the term that is commonly used in other sources. This isn't the place for original research. Also, you and Reevnar should stop edit warring in this article and discuss which term should be used here on the talk page and work toward finding a consensus about which is more appropriate. There clearly isn't a consensus for either phrase now. Rray 17:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • You've got to summarise the sources. If most sources use invulnerable, then we've got to use the term. Not using it is bordering on original research, and using a dictionary def as a reason not to use it is bordering on a synthesis of sources. Your best bet is to summarise the two positions within the article. Describe Superman as invulnerable, but then describe plot points where the limits of the invulnerability have been tested, for example the "death" at the hands of Doomsday. Hiding Talk 19:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Rray 19:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

I'm not sure that the subject of this article is notable independent of the character. It seems like a more concise and better-written description of Superman's powers and abilities would belong in the Superman article, and that this article is unnecessary as a standalone article. But I'd like to hear other opinions. Having references to non-trivial reliable sources that deal with the subject of Superman's powers and abilities would make it easier to justify a standalone article, so if someone has access to those, please add footnotes and citations and feel free to delete the notability tag. Please don't just delete the notability tag without fixing the article and discussing it here first though. Rray 02:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Just look at how large the Superman article is. Superman has a rich history of almost 70 years and, as such, has gone through numerous revisions to his powers and abilities, including causes and powere and abilities in other media. As the first superhero of the Golden Age of comics, Superman is the archetypal superhero, a partial or complete inspiration for virtually every superhero that has come since. If you would care to look through the references and etc, you will find a plethora of pages dedicated to Superman's amasing feats, and I think they will convince you. Besides, the Superman article has a summation of his powers as well as a link to this highly detailed and comprehensive page. Feel free to further discuss if you're still not satisfied. Lue3378 10:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand and agree that the Superman article is large, but that's not an indicator that the subject of *this* article is notable. I agree with your assessment of Superman's place as the archetypal superhero, and I'm aware of the publication history of the character, but those are not indicators that the subject of this article is notable. (The subject of this article is not Superman, but his powers and abilities.) The references in this article haven't demonstrated the notability of Superman's powers and abilities as the subject for an encyclopedia article. For the subject to be notable, there needs to be substantial (not trivial) coverage in reliable sources. Your comments here don't demonstrate that coverage, nor does this article, which includes only footnotes to primary sources. It's not enough that an article be highly detailed and comprehensive.
If the main Superman article covers his powers and abilities, then why is a detailed article about them necessary? Secondary sources need to be included to demonstrate the notability of this subject. Rray 13:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree. In addition, Superman is not the first modern day fictional character to have these powers. --Ghostexorcist 20:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, splitting off large sections of an article to make it part of a set of articles is fine. If the powers and abilities are notable enough to have their own section in the Superman article, there is no reason that they aren't notable enough to be listed in a separate article. Needless to say, this article is by no means a "stub". In addition, the powers of Superman are a key point in the legal cases involving copyright of the character, so that also aids in notability. Could this page use some additional references? Probably. Perhaps dropping a note at the comics WikiProject would be a bit more helpful. (sofixit,, comes to mind as well : ) - jc37 23:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. sofixit might come to mind, but since I don't think the subject of the article is notable in itself, it doesn't apply here. (I can't make the subject notable in order to "fix it".) Someone who thinks the subject *is* notable could certainly add references though. And tagging the article and beginning a discussion on the talk page is plenty helpful. I could have just nominated the article for deletion, but I thought the people interested might prefer that it be tagged, and that they be given an opportunity to make their case without having to go through that process.
I'd be interested in knowing which guideline or policy indicates that breaking off large sections of an article into a smaller article is okay, if no demonstration of the smaller article's subject can be made? I'm not aware of such a guideline or policy. Rray 23:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you're looking for Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Article series. - jc37 10:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for those links. Rray 13:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I oppose merging this article with Superman or any other article. I also want to point out that several other characters in the DC Universe have the same powers, including fellow Kryptonians Supergirl (Kara Zor-El), Power Girl, Superboy (all major versions), Chris Kent, and General Zod and his fellow Phantom Zone villains, along with Daxamites like Mon-El, Laurel Gand, Green Lantern Sodam Yat, and Roxxas (post-Zero Hour), as well as Dev-Em, who's been depicted as coming from both worlds. In other words, this article describes the abilities of an entire class of characters, not just Superman, and articles describing many of those characters refer back to this page. So yes, keep the article separate from the main Superman article. Spiderboy12 16:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

None of your comments actually address the notability of the subject matter. Notability is demonstrated by adding references from reliable sources, preferably secondary sources. Rray 17:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
No, that's not quite how you demonstrate notability. The existence of such sources can be used to denote notability, something some people demand for an article but which is only a guideline, not a policy, and therefore not a "must be obeyed rule" but something which offers guidance. Using the sources within the article actually demonstrates verifiability, and is also a tool used in constructing a well written article. Such sources most certainly exist for this article, they just haven't as yet been utilised. That this is not yet a good article does not mean notability is the appropriate stick to beat it with, and to my mind seriously misunderstands the point of the notability guidance. It was this sort of thinking that I warned against when discussing the creation of notability guidance. If we have perhaps announced the deadline for finished articles on Wikipedia, I would be gladdened to be pointed to that press release. If that is not yet the case, then perhaps we can allow a well written article to evolve through the Wikipedia process, that of an encyclopedia where anyone can edit boldly, and we can ignore all rules in our efforts to improve the encyclopedia. I would suggest those intent on improving this article in line with our six content policies use the following works for reference:
  • Superman at Fifty: The Persistence of a Legend
  • Superman: The Greenwich of Cultural Meridians in Comics
  • Fables as Psychoanalytic Metaphors
  • Pluralism in Christianity and its Consequences for Religious Education
  • The Myth of Superman
  • Superman: The Complete History: The Life and Times of the Man of Steel
  • Rewriting Superman
  • Epigenetics: SUPERMAN Dresses Up
  • The Superman Syndrome
  • Divinity and Humanity: The Incarnation Reconsidered
  • The Physics of Superheroes
  • Superman on the Couch: What Superheroes Really Tell Us about Ourselves
The existence of these sources demonstrates the notability of the article topic, although I suggest a quick newspaper search would have returned a number of articles which discuss Superman's powers. I would think good faith should allow that there have been a number of papers, press articles and journal papers which discuss Superman and his powers. I therefore intend to remove the notability tag, but leave in place the tag which asks that this article be cleaned up, since the notability of this topic is not to my mind in question, and since this article is a branch of the Superman article, split out during a Featured Article review in line with guidance, specifically Wikipedia:Summary style and Wikipedia:Article series. The article does not need to be fixed to demonstrate notability, our guidance merely asks that a topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Given the numerous works noted above, I do hope no-one disputes there is significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Hiding Talk 19:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out reliable sources. I hope someone finds the time to add them to the article. :) Rray 19:45, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
So do I. There's a very interesting article that could be built from those sources, but I sadly lack the time to do so these days, and it would be nice to see it. I don't disagree the current article is poor, and struggles to meet WP:V and WP:NOR, I just think notability isn't an issue. Maybe you're the person to fix up the article, possibly the library system near you doesn't suck as much as the one near me does? ;) Hiding Talk 20:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Speed and Time

I removed this misleading statement: "In the first movie Superman's speed was shown as much more powerful that it actually is in comics - he's portrayed as so fast that he can travel back in time, which in comic-books could only be done by The Flash so far." ...because at the time the film was made, Superman could and did use his speed to travel through time, and had been doing so since the Silver Age. It was only after the Crisis reboot that he was busted back down to sublight speeds. Noclevername (talk) 08:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research/Comarative Strength

I had orginally tagged the Comparative Strength section as orginal research. It is of my opinion that the section's contrasting of various interpretations/representations of Superman and the other fictional characters rests solely of editors interpretation of the source material, which is original research at best. As editors we can generate examples about the individual actionsfrom the source material associated with an individual character's powers, but once there's contrasting and sythesis w/o 3rd party sources that is OR. I'm not looking to edit war over this point, simply pointing what I believe to be one of the primary quality points of the article. -66.109.248.114 (talk) 22:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC).