Talk:Potlatch

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[edit] Inaccurate

This is not a very accurate article about potlatch. It's not historically correct at all. The potlatch was a demonstration of prestige, not an exchage of gifts. In may cases, the host of a potlatch publically destroyed valuable objects, to demonstrate his power and wealth. Where does this idea of a "gift economy" come from? Kind of a patronizing interpretation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.62.18.135 (talk • contribs) 02:34, February 11, 2005

It would also be of note to mention that the potlatch was outlawed because the new destructive potlatches also involved killing hundreds of slaves that they kept. This fact is often glossed over to preserve our society's concept of "the noble savage". In reality, Indians of the NW coast kept many slaves, and slaughtered them by the hundreds to gain status.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.255.42 (talk • contribs) 12:08, April 8, 2005
See my comments in #7 "goods destroyed - by the giver or the receiver?" (below)Skookum1 07:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
These unsigned comments are inaccurate. Historically, potlatch involved the redistribution of goods, not their destruction. Destruction of goods occurred mainly after colonial contact increased the quantity of goods available to potlatch practitioners; it was never the most important form of potlatch practice, and its extent was exaggerated by Whites who wanted the practice banned. Stories about the killing of hundreds of slaves are also a racist exaggerations. Reasons for the banning of the potlatch were typically colonialist. The potlatch was the centre of a non-commodified economy; involvement in potlatches impeded natives' availability for wage labour in commercial enterprises. More fundamentally, given the centrality of the potlatch as a political, religious, economic, and social institution, banning the potlatch would undermine the cohesiveness of the Native societies that practiced it, and facilitate the forced assimilation of Native individuals into White society. Christopher Powell (talk) 21:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Your statement should be in the article proper, supported by an outside reference. Is there such a reference? Gabriel Kielland (talk) 23:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"Where does this idea of a "gift economy" come from?" - It may come from the use of this term in a series of books called the mars trilogy. (Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars) It's used to describe certain actions of the "Gift Economy" exposed in this fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.224.15.50 (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Gift economy would be my guess. I only first heard about "gift economy" from a link on this page to the gift economy page. From reading that page it makes sense, but that claim probably needs more sources. OldManRivers 18:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, gift economy is an established concept in anthropology, developed by structuralist anthropologists like Marcel Mauss (see esp. his 1923-1924 classic The Gift). Kim Stanley Robinson may have been familiar with the idea but it is obviously much older than the Mars trilogy. Christopher Powell (talk) 21:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There is also an inaccuracy of what the word potlatch actually means.—Preceding unsigned comment added by AlonsoADM (talk • contribs) 00:06, October 11, 2007

[edit] Model of modern movements?

The article claims "The potlatch has also become a model, albeit a sometimes poorly understood one, for the open source software movement and a variety of social movements." Is there citable evidence of this? (Obviously, there are many modern instances of sharing, giving things away, community benefit, etc. that are not modelled after the potlatch.) --Ds13 06:38, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)

Eric Raymond's influential article Homesteading the Noosphere explicitly invokes potlatch. Indeed, if you look back through this article's history, you'll see earlier incarnations of it were written from the point of view of someone interested in FOSS. The way that Mauss's writing on potlatch influenced authors such as Georges Bataille can be seen if you google Bataiile and potlatch, or if you read Bataille. See the wikipedia entries on the College_of_Sociology if you are interested. There is also a science fiction convention with the name, etc. etc.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex Golub (talk • contribs) 15:53, April 19, 2005
Great response; thanks for the ESR link. It just wasn't intuitive to me that a First Nations ceremony would have been at all directly thought of in FOSS culture. Cool stuff. --Ds13 18:18, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
These are helpful comments--I agree that the main article would be enhanced by including the practice of destruction of property, as well as the practice of giving away items.—Preceding unsigned comment added by David Robinson (talk • contribs) 16:03, May 31, 2006

[edit] Links broken

The link at the very bottom of the page, the last one under the heading "External Links", shown as: An analysis of Potlatch and modern versions of the same from a pyschohistorical perspective goes to the wrong web page ( http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/money.html ). It should actually point to: http://www.diningiworld.com/wiki-Potlatch . Maybe someone who knows how can change that link.

  • The first link has been removed. The second is a Wikipedia mirror so it has not been added. Capitalistroadster 21:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Potlatch" and "potluck"

I think this article should be expanded to include the practise of the potlach in contemporary society. Many churches make use of the potlach. Also, trendy young hipsters often and shre fellowship around organically grown potlach items.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 05:36, March 26, 2006 (talk • contribs) 129.173.173.47

I think that would be better covered in a separate article. And you may be confusing potlatch with “potluck” where everyone brings food to share in a large meal. Also your jest about pot smoking is not particularly funny nor relevant to the discussion. — Jéioosh 20:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
The definition of "potluck" as a portmanteau word that is confused with "potlatch" is correct in my opinion. Church suppers are not related to the Native American festival practice.—Preceding unsigned comment added by David Robinson (talk • contribs) 08:05, May 31, 2006
Descriptions of modern, non-Native potlatching need elaboration and citing of their sources. So far, most of these appear to be largely confusing or conflating "potlatch" and "potluck". Origin and citing source for origin of "potluck" could be useful. --GoDot 12:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwakwaka'wakw big house

Image:Kwakwaka'wakw big house.jpg This image is currently a featured picture candidate. Due to a large influx of new candidates there are very few votes for this image. If you have an opinion on this image please go to Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Kwakwaka'wakw big house and cast your vote. HighInBC 13:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The law was never reversed but dropped from the books?

The article says "The law was never reversed, but as opposition to the potlatch waned in the twentieth century it was dropped from the books". What is the difference between the law getting reversed and dropped from the books? // habj 16:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be a technical difference: for the law to be reversed, legislation would have to be passed. For it to be dropped from the books, that might mean no legislation is passed but the Crown/DA/Attorney-General simply no longer enforce it, i.e. it's a ministerial-level change, not ratified by formal act of legislature/executive.Skookum1 20:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This confuses the heck out of me, I'm a student of political science and I cannot figure out for the life of me what droped from the books means. The way to undo a law is to pass opposite legislation, if it where only a matter of enforcement than I've seen pictures that show potlatchs in victoria during the ban where enforcement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.82.26 (talk) 06:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The law was never repealed. That is to say, there was never a new act of legislation that specifically invalidated the old law. Instead, when the Indian Act was revised in 1951, mention of the potlatch was simply omitted. I don't know if there are legal consequences, but symbolically a repeal can be taken as an admission that the earlier law was mistaken or inappropriate, and this did not take place with respect to the potlatch. Christopher Powell (talk) 21:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Christopher Powell about the revision; the Indian Act was revised completely in 1951 (Statutes of Canada, Ch. 29, proclaimed on Sept 4 1951). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.235.140 (talk) 03:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] goods destroyed - by the giver or the receiver?

The article mentions gifts being destroyed after bing received, presumably then by the receiver. The article mentions nothing about the holder of a potlatch destroying goods - isn't that notion more common? For instance, my dictionary (in Swedish, Nationalencyklopedin)) mentions destruction of canoes or ornamented copper plates, and even killing of slaves by the owner and holder of potlatch but nothing about the receiver destroying gifts. If these examples are incorrect and an example of misunderstanding of the potlatch, that should probably be discussed in the article. // habj 10:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm from BC and the article strikes me as being "euhemerized", with many of the un-nice features of Pacific Northwest Coast cultures left out, such as slavery (and the killing of slaves at potlatches), or the wanton rivalry between certain chieftaincies which saw fortunes extinguished and often resulted in violence. Nearly every page on BC First Nations has a blank spot where anything to do with something other than "we were holistic-Mother Earth-respecting people who liked to trade with their neighbours and got along peacefully until the white man came"; the truth is vastly different but also a political hot-potato; even with current natives affairs some First Nations people denounce any non-First Nations people for having any opinion at all (see RedMan's comments on Talk:Oka Crisis). So yes, there are major additions in terms of content and context needed for this page, and for a host of others; but frankness about slavery, cannibalism, intertribal warfare, the violence of the First Nations "shaker" religion and other secret societies, and so on is sure to get complaints from earnest acolytes of the Native Renaissance who maintain that all evils in white accounts are either lies or misunderstandings....Skookum1 20:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
A large portion of scholarship by Whites about Native peoples has been infected by ethnocentric bias and racist stereotypes. And that 'scholarship' can still affect the current political situation, in which First Peoples are, despite important gains, still struggling for their cultural survival against a colonial state that would prefer them to dissolve into White settler society. So it is important to remove the mistaken or exaggerated claims that have been made. Given how charged these issues are, the space between representations that pander to colonialism and representations that gloss over the complexities and contradictions of past and present cultural life can sometimes be small and tricky to navigate. Still, it would be excellent for someone (or some many) strongly versed in both the relevant history and the sociopolitical issues at stake to write a fuller description of the potlatch (and its historiography). Given the effort involved, though, it might be a while before that happens. Christopher Powell (talk) 21:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A large portion of what is written is biased from Euro-American centric POV. Doesn't mean wikipeida has to. There are also a lot of good books about the potlatch thats simply have facts and stories, some of which are written by indigenous themselves. But there is also a lot of "Red-washing" of indigenous peoples own history. Excommunication and beheading of homosexuals, slavery, and caste system society are all real in context. Of course, there isn't much written about that that's a good source except for racist ego-centric ethnocentric anthro's. Just saying, there's some credibility and realness of that not so good things.
As for effort involved, I really want to work on this. I'm gathering books for the Anti-Potlatch and Potlatch ban stuff. Other books recommended to me are also on the way. What's incredibly difficult is the tone or premise of the potlatch. For Coast Salish, highly spiritual events and ceremonies take place, presently and pre-historically. But all the "books" and anthropologist reports of the potlatch neglect thing majorley because of their ethnocentrism. And even today, it's seen by some as a ceremony, but, not in the spiritual en devour that previously took place. For many, it's still a religion. (Okay, the word religion is debatable among indigenous, but it has devout followers who believe the practices and history. Spirits, ancestors, gods, magical powers can heal, etc.) Case and point, potlatches now are limited to 1-2 days (sometimes up to 4, but I've never seen it higher then 6). But pre-contact and in the early part of colonization history, it was a week long festival with complex spiritual ceremonialism and shamanism. Then we must establish the differences and similarities between all the different distinct ethno-cultural groups that practice the potlatch. Nuu-chah-nulth is different then Kwakwaka'wakw, and both are different from Coast Salish. I can't speak for up north because once I hit the northern tip of Vancouver Island, I get lost (What I mean is, my understand of the culture). My friends tell me about their practices, Tsimshian, and it's differs again. Mostly becuase they are matrilineal where Kwakwaka'wakw and Coast Salish are patrilineal.
Is there any other good articles out there that deal with a "cultural event" across multiple ethno-cultural regions/groups? I'm at a loss of where to start on this article and guidance is needed for me. But I do want to really work on this article because it's such a vital part of Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast culture. Anyways, I'd rather have discussion on how we can improve this article then what's wrong about history and it's decisions. OldManRivers (talk) 04:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Potlatch--the Ultimate Tournament

There should be a link on this page to a new page about the large Ultimate tournament in Seattle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thisismysn000 (talk • contribs) 14:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Past/Present Tense

I'm unsure of why the article is written in the past tense when the potlatch is still a big part of the Indigenous cultures on the coast. OldManRivers 07:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewording

The first paragraph needs to be reworded as it does not make sense. These sentences in particular are problematic: "The potlatch takes the form of governance, economy, social status and continuing spiritual practices. A potlatch, usually involving ceremony, includes births, rites of passages, weddings, celebrations, funeral, honoring of the deceased, through political, economic and social exchange."

What is meant by saying that a potlatch takes the form of governance practices, or that a potlatch includes births through exchange? None of this explains what a potlatch is. 142.66.45.189 20:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I appologize for the wording. I know it ain't the best, but I had to edit it for the way it looked. I would apreciate some edits here. I'll fix it up as much as I can, but anyone with a better English language, could take a stab at it. The way it stood, it didn't clearly describe what the pot-latch is, and still is, today. How vital it is, and how much of the culture involves this system. OldManRivers 10:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading List

Is there a way to make this better. It's getting longer then the actual article now, and although I think it's good to have all these reading sources, it's getting a bit long. Idea's? OldManRivers 21:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't hear a response back so I went and created a bibliography page. Potlatch Bibliography. I think this cleans it up a lot. The bibliography was starting to take up more then the actual page. OldManRivers 09:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I get distracted elsewhere and forget stuff on pages here and there that I could have helped with, and lately have been avoiding Wiki'ing as I have real-world stuff going on and will be spending less and less time here overall; more on this later, i.e. books for the list, but for now I think there's issues with the new title according to wiki guidelines; probably best to post a notice at the BC Project talkpage like I did for Rancherie an the ship lists; many of those guys know the naming conventions well; what will happen is that your Potlatch Bibliography would become a rediret to something like List of bibliographical materials on the potlatch or something to that effect, or thereabouts.Skookum1 10:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was stumped on naming it, but that is what wiki is for. Correcting the mistakes of OldManRivers. Thanks though. And, I'm kind of on the boat with you. I was checking this site 10-20 times a day. Got it down to 3. I'll add now when I know I have something to add...lol OldManRivers 20:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Why doe someone keep putting the bibliography back into the list? OldManRivers 23:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be Saros136, who you'll find through the edit history; must be an admin - he's using a bot named popups to find deleted materials; not sure how it works but this one involves, I think, judgement calls; just leave a note on his page; could have been that the old bibliography title wasn't acceptable, I wouldn't know.Skookum1 06:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Potlatch in Nigeria?

Is anyone familiar with potlatch in pre-colonial Nigeria? Chinua Achebe's novel Things Fall Apart describes a "taking of rank" ceremony wihin Ibo culture that appears (as far as the novel describes it) extremely potlatch-like. Each rank is open to anyone who can afford to feast their neighbours with the approriate gifts and ritual. For a man to never take any such rank is miserly. Andy Dingley 22:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whitewashed?

Just doing some research for a paper. This article is so sanitized its embarrassing. I guess that’s why in university were not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Even after some discrepancies have been pointed out I see that no one as fixed them, which I find disterbing. Kind of reminds me of Nazi Germany or Russia under Stalin. Why the white washing of history? Anyway, I’m changing my paper from being about the potlatch to the white washing of Native history, which I think would make a more compelling paper.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.125.214 (talk • contribs) 22:39, July 19, 2007

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Katr67 23:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Your university is correct in not allowing WP as a source. It can be an excellent tool for understanding an issue, and hopefully will list sources that you *can* use. ErikHaugen (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing "Potlatch" with "Potluck"...

In the Twin Harbors area of Washington, there is a very common misconception among the locals (very ironically, considering the original homeland of the Chinook language is in Bay Center, Washington, which lies in the Willapa Harbor area -- the souther of the Twin Harbors), that potlatch is the "correct spelling" of the word potluck. I've even heard some people in the city that killed Saint Kurt state that potlatch is a Gaelic word which is supposed to be pronounced potluck. It's not at all uncommon in the area, and probably beyond, for churches to hold a "potlatch dinner". While this is quite easily verifiable (one has only to drive through Aberdeen [if one were brave enough to risk it, as said putrid, festering slime-pit of a city has a tendency to trap visitors and passers through via very odd "coincidents" such as a vehicle that breaks down, preventing one from returning home in time to return to work and thus losing one's job, forcing one to remain in the city and attempt looking for work, spending the rest of one's life trying to raise the funds to leave, being an exceptionally common scenerio of the city's seemingly supernatural ability to suck in and destroy lives] during the summer time to verify this first hand), I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for a reference. If anyone has a reference for this misconception, or could point me in the right direction, I think it bears mentioning on the page. --Þórrstejn [ˡθoɝ.staɪʲn]: Hammer of Thor talk 10:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I always thought that potlatch was derived from Nuu-chah-nulth and not from chinook, I'll look for some sources but it makes more sense to me, much earlier contact and all. 24.69.82.26 06:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Potlatch in chinook means a gift, to give. I've asked my Nuu-chah-nulth friend about the word for potlatch in his language so I'll now more after that. I've always seen and heard potlatch being Chinook in origin. And what do you mean "much earlier contact"? OldManRivers 21:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
According to Umeek (E. Richard Atleo), in his book, "Tsawalk", it may have its origins in the Nuu-chah-nulth word (a verb) "pachitle" which means "to give." He notes that there is no direct translation which people have come to associate with certain ceremonies and social functions. We had different words for different events, coming-of-age ceremonies, memorials, marriages etc. OldManRivers 21:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Potluck is the luck of the pot. Each pot is donated to the meal by a different person. Potlatch≠Potluck. Mike H. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.149.61 (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that Nuu-chah-nulth contributed the second largest batch of the Chinook Jargon's core vocabulary, the first being from Chinookan; and that in the Jargon words don't mean necessarily what they did in the original language, even if that language is Chinookan or Nuu-chah-nulth.Skookum1 (talk) 18:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] awful article

This article really gives no useful description of what a potlatch entails. Should be scrapped and rewritten. 68.101.130.214 05:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving Article

Obviously this article could use a lot of work. The potlatch itself is a massive part of indigenous cultures in the Northwest Coast, with a lot of history and really, culture. I'd like to see what we can collectively work on to improv the article. Obviously something like this will need a lot of citation, and research. I will add that many anthropologists have made many errors in judgment about the cultures of their study, and many history books on the subject can be a bit altered from the actual history. I will also put emphasis on not only White Euro-American anthropologists that have dominated the history texts books on this subject, but also indigenous accounts. Then I'll add that the Anti-Potlatch laws will also be worth a lot of detail, but that would be for a separate article. But, let's get started! Where can we begin to work on an article of this nature? Are there any featured article that are similar to this one? OldManRivers 07:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

As an outsider, I'd say you could start by making the article actually give me some idea what a potlatch is! "A highly complex ceremony" could mean anything. If they vary too much for a comprehensive description, then give examples. 86.143.48.55 (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Potlatch as an example of community gathering in the Northwest was historically not limited to one ethnic group and as such the article needs to recognize that. When cultures meet and live in close proximity there is often assimilation of language, ideas and concepts. That certainly happened in the Northwest between the native cultures and the settlers.Awotter (talk) 06:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean? OldManRivers (talk) 07:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I think he means that some settler-culture people absorbed some ideas from the indigenous cultures; to me, this is a lot clearer re the Plains culture and white people overall. Myself I haven't heard of settler people potlatching, certainly not Kwakwaka'wakw style but even in the more casual mode of potlatching where the hereditary/honorary regalias and titles aren't part of the equation; e.g. among the Sto:lo, St'at'imc and Nlaka'pamux etc. In living up there in recent decades I haven't heard it used though except with "potlatch" in the CJ sense of "to give" or "a gift"; but Chief Hunter Jack did hold "potlatches" - just not the kind that I know you're most interested in writing up; :-) i.e. there are potlatches which are not "highly complex ceremonies", more like a party the chief throws; the term potlatch also got used by early Burrard Inlet settlers to describe Skwxwu7mesh gatherings, but not of the formal variety; (these were events non-natives were invited to). I think it's worth bearting in mind when writing the article that the Kwakwaka'wakw/Northwest Coast culture potlatch is a different thing than among, say, the Duguamish or T'souk-e; might be worth asking user:Murderbike or at Talk: (tribe) or Talk:Skokomish (tribe) for a Puget Sound collaborator. As for people on Cortes or Hornby who've decided to emulate the grand-style potlatch from "assimilating language, ideas and concepts"....well, consider it a compliment, flattery by imitation.Skookum1 (talk) 14:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This essay conveys the essence of what Skookum1 wrote above. Unfortunately I don't have my copy of Murray Morgan's Skid Road, but I seem to remember that in it he talks about potlatch's and the very early history of interaction between the cultures. Obviously the spirit of a communal gathering is what came across to the newcomers to such an extent that they emulated (some might say appropriated) it in later years.Awotter (talk) 19:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Skookum, I agree with totaly on the diversity of the potlatch. Not only was it distinct among one cultural group, say the Kwakwaka'wakw, it was even more diverse with in that. All of the different 'villages', let alone clans, tribes, nations, confederations, etc. had their own way of doing it. Kwakwaka'wakw potlatch was durastically different from Coast Salish potlatches. Yet not surprisingly, they had so much in common. There were so many characters that were different, but the purpose or meaning was the same. It's quite remarkable and hard to convey because there is so much diversity. That's only two distinct cultural groups. Let alone Kwakwaka'wakw vs. Nuu-chah-nulth -- Skwxwu7mesh vs. Cowichan -- Haida vs. Kwakwaka'wakw -- Tsimshian vs. Makah -- Tlingit vs. Skwxwu7mesh, etc. etc. etc. with every possible variation of the entire Northwest Coast. Hugely diverse, yet still the same. Ah, so complex and confusing. Then, we take into account that "the potlatch" was so many things within itself. You were born, you had a potlatch. You came of age, you had a potlatch. You were getting married, you had a potlatch. You got your name, you had a potlatch. You were celebrting something, you had a potlatch. Someone died, you had a potlatch. You were doing specific ceremony #1, you had a potlatch. You were doing specific ceremony #2 through #14, you had 13 potlatches. Simply put: very diverse. OldManRivers (talk) 08:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re-write

This article needs to be entirely re-written, it's apalling. The intro paragraph gives us NO idea what a potlatch is, it isn't until about three screenfuls of drivel down it's HINTED that it MAY be the 'redistribution of wealth'. What IS it? Explain, re-write, educate, please? 122.107.42.146 (talk) 14:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree about the rewrite there is also no mention of the business known as "Potlatch." Which long story short, is a logging company that uses all of its waste and left overs from the logging process to produce paper towels, bath tissue, and facial tissue. These are "no-label" products that are usually sold to smaller businesses to give general grocery store brands competition with lets say Georgia Pacific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.202.62.229 (talk) 20:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Working Re-Write

I've been meaning to get to this but I haven't until now and all the complaining forced to me to actually look at this awful article. Bemoaning and griping aside, I've done what I can for now. I'll devise a work plan (which hopefully won't be carried out by me alone). At the top of my head, adding the words from other languages with their definitions would be neat. And perhaps some pictures from potlatches today. OldManRivers (talk) 01:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trash

I'm going to put this here for now until it can be re-written or revised somehow. OldManRivers (talk) 01:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The potlatch has fascinated and perhaps been misunderstood by Westerners for many years.<ref name="Cole&Chaikin" /> [[Thorstein Veblen]]'s use of the ceremony in his book ''[[Theory of the Leisure Class]]'' made potlatching a symbol of "[[conspicuous consumption]]". Other authors such as [[Georges Bataille]] were struck by what they saw as the [[anarchism|anarchic]], [[communalism|communal]] nature of the potlatch's operation—it is for this reason that the organization [[Lettrist International]] named their review after the potlatch in the [[1950s]]. [[Kim Stanley Robinson]] adopted the term in his [[Mars trilogy]]. ==Etymology and definition== {{cleanup IPA}} The name is derived from [[Chinook Jargon]], a trade language used up and down the coast by the indigenous peoples. Every practicing Pacific Northwest language has their own word, or many words for the potlatch. The word in Chinook simply means "a gift" or "to give". The Chinouk Jargon word is a homonym having nothing to do with "pot" or "latch".<ref name="Cole&Chaikin>Cole" & Chaikin</ref> <!--The word for potlatch in other languaes needs to be added, not just Lushootseed. [[Coast Salish]] [[Lushootseed]] potlatching is ''x<sup>w</sup>salik<sup>w</sup>'', from ''x<sup>w</sup>ɐš'', "throw, broadcast, distribute goods", related to ''pús(u)'', "throw through the air, throw at".<ref>(1) Bates, Hess, & Hilbert pp. xii–xiv, 164, 340 <br>(2) See [[Duwamish (tribe)# note-4|Duwamish (tribe) #footnote]] for a brief summary.</ref> The casting or throwing of suitable gifts is a part of a potlatch ceremony. :n. [Chinook potlatch, pahtlatch, fr.Nootka ''pahchilt'', ''pachalt'', a gift.] ::1. Among the Kwakiutl, Chimmesyan, and other Indians of the northwestern coast of North America, a ceremonial distribution by a man of gifts to his own and neighboring tribesmen, often, formerly, to his own impoverishment. Feasting, dancing, and public ceremonies accompany it. ::2. Hence, a feast given to a large number of persons, often accompanied by gifts. [Colloq., Northwestern America] ::[Webster 1913 Suppl.]<ref>(1) The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 <br>(2) "[O]ften, formerly, to his own impoverishment": At the time of writing the ''1913 Webster'', the economics of the potlatch in context were widely misunderstood in non-Native society.</ref>

[edit] Collaboration

Here is an outline for a better structure and something to work towards: OldManRivers (talk) 01:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Potlatch

About
- Feasting
- Music
- Art
- Masks used in the potlatch
- Dance
- Ceremony and spirituality
- The Midwinter Feast (whatever its name in Kwak'wala); see notes below on "players"/"roles" - sorry for those terms, can't think of better for now)
Historical and cultural context
History
-Pre-colonization
-Potlatch ban
-Continuation
Economics
-Re-Distribution of wealth
-Coppers or Copper Shields
Governance
Law
-Property
Social structure (classes, status, rank, slavery, etc. and how it all played into the potlatch)

Somehow it's got to be broken down like this:

Tlingit
Nisga'a
Gitxsan-Wet'su-wet'en
Tsimshian
Haida
etc etc; or by region if there's congruities, like joint potlatching cultures between (just guessing) the Tlingit and Haida, or otherwise between two groups; AFAIK the G-W Confederacy potlatching and associated legal and cultural "system" reached across the usual linguistic divide into the Interior, but I stand ready to be corrected on that; I don't think this was teh case with teh Lakes Lillooet or even the Lower Lillooet, and I don't know of anything comparable among hte Nicola or Nlaka'pamux or Okanagan, and don't know about the Sto:lo; downriver, like the Musqueam, sure, but upriver like the Chehalis or Scowlitz or Matsqui or Sumas, maybe, but (forgive me for being a stupid xwelitum) AFAIK the titular and ceremonial culture on teh Fraser wasn't anything like it was fartehr upcoast; but there were still potlatches, by that bname in Chinook and/or in English if not in the original Halqemeylem, and whatever their purport or intent; I think Sleigh's book mentions one at Chehalis, but it's 4000 miles away....I recall a tidbit about the Mt Currie chief, or the Douglas one? - maybe both - holding a potlatch. But again, all relevant books on BC are very, very far away from me now.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The upper river Sto;lo did and do have potlatches. I'm not about further interior with St'atimc or Okanagan, but my people do have history of people from the interior coming down for our potlatches. Even up north there is stories of either Dakelhne or Cree coming in over the glaciers for inter-culture fun/parties. Not sure, but I'll keep an eye out for possible instances. OldManRivers (talk) 23:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
The Potlatch outside the Northwest Coast
Potlatches in the Plateau
As noted, there's Klatassine's wedding potlatch, or the use of the term by Lunden-Brown (who used Chinook to communicate with the Tshilhqot'in, whose language he did not speak). Hunter Jack's famous potlatches at Shalalth are a matter of record though I don't know of any ceremonial detail, if any, and I seem to recall mention of Nicola having a potlatch or two; although its usage in the Interior may indeed be something more like feast/tribal gathering. List of pow-wows in British Columbia probably should come along at some point, also List of rodeos in British Columbia, which as you know will have a lot of FN content, including some of the province'smost famous rodeos; I know pow-wowing isn't part of coastal life, just mentioning it in terms of overall FN content; I'm sure there's alreadylots coming outofstateside;fancy dancing is maybe already a nice article, likewise grass dance. Anyway, the idea in this bottom section, maybev as a separate article or two, i.e. The Potlatch among Northwest Coast peoples, The Potlatch among Lower Columbia River peoples The Potlatch among Interior and Plateau peoples and The Potlatch in the Yukon and so on. The Tlingit and Tahltan and Wet'su-we'ten (sp?) can all be included in the Coastal group;, though, the Tlingit most obviously of course; I'm not sure if the Inland Tlingit are that much alike in those terms, but I do know "potlatch" is a term that shows up in the Yukon, if without the coastal regalia. Might be good to post a "potlatch" section on talkpages on various national/band pages around BC to seee if there's any response about usage of the term or whatever associated traditions, and see haht turns up, or who. You might want to ask User:BillPoser (User:Bill Poser?) at YDLI about the Wet'su-we'ten potlatch, probably the Gitxsan too.....hmmmm Chief Kwah is an article long in need of being written, and in the mumblings of long-distant readings in the back of my head i think I've seen the term potlatch being used in reference to him; but it might be from a later-era account, as I don't think CJ had penetrated Carrier country by the time of his story...but it might just be an "invented memory", it's been a longtime since I read the sources on him; Stephen Hume's articles on him might have seomthing, andHume himself might have something on potlatch culture come to think of it; he's also got a good article on the Pentlatch language somewhere..Skookum1 (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Potlatches on the Lower Columbia
Chinookan-culture peoples may have had potlatching similar to the Nuu-chah-nulth, with whom they had close ties; and the Chehalis of Washington were sort of "subject" to the Chinooks and influenced by them, as well as having ties with the Puget Sound Salish peoples.

Howdy; before I go on, check it out, just found it and templated it - Slahal. Was thinking of stubbing it and "there it is". Lots to add, I daresay (never mind the two whiteman sources...).

And btw if I'm not mistaken "slahal" is the Salishanized form; the original Chinookan is "lahal" I think; isn't the s- preclitic a common/standard Salishan noun form? Anyway the gambling category people that createdd the article used the S-spelling; both are legitimate; I've seen "lahall" and "lahalle" also.Skookum1 (talk) 05:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyway about the collaboration stuff, yeah, totally, and I was already going to suggest a working group of BC Wikians working on aboriginal articles with people like Murderbike in Washington and a few others in OR AK ID and MT that are around; partly to resolve all teh cross-border stuff and to coordinate "language" and all teh rest; in the case of potlatch, like longhouse and bighouse, there's tribe-by-tribe variations in context and meaning; the layout you've set out is inherently mid-upper Coast, the potlatching culture/peoples as you describe it; but a Fraser Valley potlatch, or a Lillooet Country or Songhees potlatch, were also part of BC history; but without the titles and formal heritage...I"m not sure, are there any period descriptions of potlatches in the Lower Fraser or up through teh Lillooet Country or Chilcotin? I know the Wet'su-wet'en held them, but IIRC that was an inland offshoot of formal potlatching culture, shared with the Gitxsan etc. Not sure if the term was used in SEcwepemc, Nlaka'pamux or Syilx cultures, maybe you'd know. Certainly a Duwamish or Chinook potlatch is going to need a different layout/decriptive paramters, no? Anyway, not sure about how to launch a working group that would be a subgropu within the NorthAmnative, BC/WA/OR/AK/YT/ID/MT wikiprojects but seems like a good idea in cases like this; also Eulachon grease and the like, and also Slahal and other regionally-shared traditions/cultures. Been at a slahal game, lots of fun; the article shoudl say that games coulld go on for days, sometimes even coming to blows and/or stalemates, and were part of what the church and state tried to ban along wit hte potlatch; at Interior potlatches at least, slahal was played (e.g. Klatsassan's wedding feast, as reported by Lunden-Brown), as well as railed against by the priests....Skookum1 (talk) 05:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's mid-to-upper northern centric. Even though, a lot of what is said about the northern workings of the potlatch is still quite similar to south coast. The major difference is northern cultures are much more stratified. For Coast Salish, potlatching was still the same thing with rank and status, but less clearly defined as the roles were for, say the Kwakwaka'wakw. So yeah, it would need better wording to be more general (or specific in instances), but generally it's quite similar. Granted, it's still northern centric and can use work, so, by all means, go ahead and start working on it (hint hint!) OldManRivers (talk) 06:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Players"/"roles" - spirit characters/ceremonial appearances

I'm only writing these from memory and it's from Chiefly Feasts so sorry if these are Lekwiltok spellings/forms but the idea is the "cast of characters" on the one hand, I guess in the Art-Masks section, and specific types of ceremonies in the Ceremonials section, e.g. the Midwinter Feast/Ceremonial, whatever its true name.

  • Babanux'ala'nux'siwe - Cannibal-Giant-At-The-North-End-of-The-World, absolutely one of the best "devil" names on the whole planet. I know I don't have that spelling right although I think I've got most of the consonants in proper sequence; the others I don't remember the Kwak'wala names for, i.e. his three cronies:
  • Crooked-Beak, Hooked-Beak and ????, the three supernatural birds whose images are perhaps among the most famous of Kwakwaka'wakw culture in the outside world.
  • Undersea-King or King-of-the-Undersea-World, as I remember it, "the good guy"; his underlings include Octopus and other sea-life in the "play" of the ceremonial, no?

I've never seen it, only read the account and maybe seen brief clips of modern-era events, usually p.r. for the media not actual potlatches; these are all from the Midwinter Ceremonial and of course there's lots more; just some ideas for more Category:Kwakwaka'wakw articles, not that you don't have enough to attend to or come up with that you want yourself.

It's so funny to hear a ma'mała try to explain/recite about these dances/characters. I know exactly what your talking about (from attending potlatches no doubt...lol). I'll add this to it too. It would probably all go on Kwakwaka'wakw mythology, although I'll probably rename that and add it all somewhere else, like Kwakwaka'wakw spirituality or something (not for bias issues, but also going into actual faith beliefs and not just "characters" or "gods" these people believe'd. Oh wait, that's right, we still believe this. Anyways, consider it noted! OldManRivers (talk) 23:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Been meaning to get back to you on that, but in the meantime:

[edit] Resources found

Found this J.B. McCullagh, 1899, re teh Potlatch, pre-politicing for anti-potlatch legislation, I'd imagine.Skookum1 (talk) 14:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Also this really nice period engraving of a "Grand Potlatch - Old-Man-House" on pg 25A of the noxiously-titled and incredibly bad anthro publication, Indian History of the Northwest - Siwash By J. A. Costello, published in 1895; but there might be useful tidbits in it nonetheless on various topics, including its CJ stuff; note on "Old-Man-House", this appears to be a Puget Sound CJism for the bighouse or lean-to type of longhouse; "oleman house" in usual CJ renderings, oloman haws in GRCJ I think; "old man", "oleman", "oloman" is used for old-time as well as ruined, worn out, decrepit, aged; kind of a pun on olo to be thirsty or hungry when in reference to a person, but it's an anglicism at root; interesting to see a CJ word for a bighouse though (since skookum house means "prison" that won't do; what about up Kwakwaka'wakw way - tyee house maybe? (OMR, if you think I'm confrontational check out my little petulant rant on Talk:Chinook Jargon about that page's POV'ing...more like "righteously indignated" than confrontational....Skookum1 (talk) 15:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, got that wrong; just been reading Costello a bit more and "Old-Man-House Reservation" is mentioned, not sure which one that is today, I'll figure it out; too bad, thought I was onto something about bighouse<->old-man-house.Skookum1 (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Intro rewrite

Stopped by to correct the etymological bit a tad and noticed various other wordsin it's just easier to propose changes to than analyze:

A potlatch[1][2][3] is a festival ceremony practiced by Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast in North America, along Pacific Northwest coast of the United States and the Canadian province of British Columbia. This includes Haida, Nuxalk, Tlingit, Tsimshian[4], Nuu-chah-nulth,[5] Kwakwaka'wakw[6] and Coast Salish[7] cultures. The word comes from the Chinook Jargon, meaning "to give away" or "a gift". It is a vital part of indigenous cultures of the Pacific Northwest. It went through a history of rigorous ban by the Canadian government, and has been the study of many anthropologists.

Here's some fixes:

A potlatch[1][2][3] is a festival ceremony practiced by Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast and adjoining regions of North America, most notably in coastal areas of the US states of Washington and Oregon and the Canadian province of British Columbia. This includes Haida, Nuxalk, Tlingit, Tsimshian[4], Nuu-chah-nulth,[5] Kwakwaka'wakw[6] and Coast Salish[7] cultures. Among these peoples the institution of the potlatch is a vital part of their cultures and constitutes a combination of legal and economic system. It went through - but survived - a history of rigorous ban by the Canadian government, and has been the study of many anthropologists. Outside the Northwest Coast culture-region, the potlatch is less formal in nature and does not carry the same ritual or legalistic weight, though still used to cement relationships and power.

...."these ahve not been studied so much by anthropologists", but I don't know how to say that in a citable way....but taht they haevn't ben studied so much makes them harder to cite at all, escept by photo-examples and mentions in regional histories and whatever local lore might turn up; a section "The Potlatch In the Interior" or some such is called for. I put Oregon in there though that's dicey; the Chinook would tell you that, yes, they had the potlatch, but I don't know if it had the same hierarchical/status/formal weight it did among hte Nuu-chah-nulth and Makah; the coastal institution seems to start from Puget Sound on up, but how formal Duwamish etc potlatches were again, I can't say; the rigorous "legal" and advanced ritual culture seems exclusive from Wakashan peoples on up, but it would be interesting to learn about similar among hte Gulf of Georgia-Loewr Mainland peoples; and contemoprary potlatches in the Interior might now contain name-giving and the like, as a borrowing from coastal cultures; unless they were already that way, but I've seen no mention of it in what I've read on various peoples so far. Anyway, just htoughts; didnt' want to be too bold and I'm alwasy wary of my verbositioes and sometimes-clumsy syntax; the idea in the preceding changed version is what was left out of the content; if you think it's good, please tranfser it over with whatever fixes needed.Skookum1 (talk) 02:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC) That last bit could be reworded better, but it can't not be mentioned here;

Name section
Each culture has their own name for the institution, but "potlatch" came into use across the culture-region via the Chinook Jargon, meaning "to give away" or "a gift", as is also the meaning of the Nuu-chah-nulth root of the Jargon term, patlac.