Talk:Potemkin Stairs

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Did You Know An entry from Potemkin Stairs appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 6 August 2006.
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[edit] DYK

Great article! Could we hammer out a DYK nomination here and then submit it? --Irpen 05:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I was looking at Template_talk:Did_you_know#Suggestions any suggestion about the catchy title? Odessaukrain 09:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DYK Suggestion

Here is a try at Potemkin Stairs DYK:

"...that the Potemkin Stairs located in Odessa, Ukraine create an optical illusion, when either the landings or the stairs are invisible depending on an observer's vantage point?"--Riurik 18:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats beautiful, great job, I will post it now. Odessaukrain 20:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Posted: Template_talk:Did_you_know#August_2 Odessaukrain 20:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Duc

I wonder whether the Duke de Richelieu Monument really belongs to this article. --Ghirla -трёп- 06:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It is at the very top of the stairs, and a major part of the stairs. If you would like, you can make a new page about the monument, and I could add a {{futher|}} tag to this page.
I was thinking of mentioning the semi-circular buildings around the duke too, but maybe that is too much.
Maybe I can also write an article on the:

[edit] Battleship Potemkin?

Any reference to this movie could be made to maybe somehow make this into a catchy DYK. Great article, well-written. -- mno 17:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original name?

There are revert conflict on Odessa article on original stairs name:

We definitely need to figure correct name out - as there are conflicting information in WikiPedia - for example here Battleship Potemkin "Odessa Steps (Primorsky or Potemkin Stairs)". The one way to figure correct name is to make photo of sign attached to stairs (near top) - but I'm unable to do this as I'm out of city for long time. --TAG 14:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If the Primorsky Stairs is the official name, it seems proper to include it alongside the Potemkin Stairs something similar to: "the Potemkin Stairs or officially the Primorsky Stairs."
I'm not sure if there any current official stairs name becouse there is no buildings/addresses attached to it - but current street down them is Primoskaya (Russian: Приморская улица; Odessa Port is No 6 on this street) changed from Suvorov (Russian: Суворова улица; used during USSR time? ). Boulevard at top is Primorskiy ((Russian: Приморский бульвар; Londonskaya Hotel is No 11). --TAG 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
However, the stairs have a rich history and maybe all the various names could be incorporated (chronologically, or in a table format by date) within the history section?
Also the DYK nomination appears to be stalling on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Did_you_know#August_2, see below; is anyone in a position to get the optical effect picture?:
"...that the Potemkin Stairs located in Odessa, Ukraine create an optical illusion, where either the landings or the stairs are invisible depending on an observer's vantage point?" Odessaukrain 20:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
(sorry) but you can see some of the landings in both pictures in the article. Ruhrfisch 02:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, however if I am not mistaken, one would not see any stairs, if he/she were at the bottom of the stairs. The optical illusion is still a DYK fact. A picture may eventually come up but by then the article may be out of the 5 day range. Best regards
It seems a little odd to make that claim but then not back it up with a picture - I'm sure that people clicking on the item will expect to see it for themselves within the article. ,--Riurik 15:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
"The stairs were originally known as the Boulevard steps or the Giant Staircase." Karakina, Yelena; Tatyana Samoilova, Anna Ishchenko (2004). Touring Odessa. BDRUK. ISBN 9668137019.  p. 32
Odessa, a guide, and Herlihy calls them the "Potemin stairs" througout.
Is there a plaque at the top of the stairs? Interesting. I have never seen it and have never run across it on the internet. Odessa, a guide states that there is a plaque at the bottom:
"It was at the foot of the Potemkin stairway that the first piles for the future port were driven in by Suvorov's soldiers. This is commemorated by the plaque on the wall of the passenger Sea Terminal. It reads: "The first installations, from which began the construction of the port and city of Odessa were laid here on August 22nd (September 2nd), 1794." (p. 52)
"plaque on the wall" is plague for Port - not stairs - I don't remember if I've seen it - if I did - it can be on bridge over railways thich connect port and stairs. As far as I remember - there are plague for stairs on last (topmost) landings (becouse most of tourists prefer to not walk down ?) with Boffo name and years - but I'm unsure if it list stairs name and then it was installed. --TAG 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Image:Treppe in Odessa.jpeg shows the disappearing landings. I will add that to the article. Odessaukrain 17:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I do not see how the name "l'escalier Richelieu" could be confusing or misleading for anyone with even tangential knowledge of Russian in general, and with the tradition of street-naming in Odessa in particular. By the same token, you can argue that Ekaterininskaya refers not to the street and square, but to the statue of Catherine II, located at the said square (and where the street begins). As for the original name of the stairs, the question is open. --Barbatus 18:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that there are Richelieu name on postcard is crystal clear for me - but this can be photographer who did this confusion. As well this can be possible common stairs name is different in different regions. For example Richelieu was well known (he was prime minister !) in France and stairs become well-known before Potemkin (1925) movie. --TAG 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Barbatus, we all have the same purpose in mind: to build an encyclopedia.
I agree with User:TAG.Odessa I think this issue is better dealt with here--not in the picture on the Odessa page, because obviously the stairs have gone by many different names in the past. Why use only the French term when the stairs have been called the "Boulevard steps or the Giant Staircase" in the past too?
"l'escalier Richelieu" is French isn't it, not Russian? Maybe in French they called it the Richelieu stairs, but I have yet to find an english source for naming the stairs this. Ришельевская лестница only pulls up one reference on google. I don't doubt you, I just think sourcing all information is important. Odessaukrain 20:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Barbatus, you wrote: " travel guide is not the best source of information; there are other versions, see, e.g., Herlihy, "Odessa", p. 339" and changed the (originally Primorsky Stairs) to (originally Richelieu Stairs)
I agree 100% travel guides tend to be incorrect. I am looking at Herlihy, "Odessa", p. 339", and I don't know what your point is about this, Hommaire de Hell derogatorily called the staicase "babylonian", but there is no mention of Primorsky or Richelieu Stairs. Odessaukrain 20:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


User:Barbatus is correct:

"the Richelieu steps now called the Potemkin steps". (1990) Prince Michael Vorontsov: Viceroy to the Tsar. McGill-Queen's Press - MQUP. ISBN 0773507477.  p. 119

Sorry User:Barbatus I was wrong. Odessaukrain 21:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Nofin' to be sorry about (that is, only if you don't like to be wrong ... who does? :). As for my reference to the p. 339 of Herlihy's book, it was about the supposed reason for building of the steps in the first place, mentioned by one of the editors (Vorontsov's gift to his wife), not about the original name. As I said, that question is open. It is quite possible, that there was no "official" name in the beginning. I'm not even sure when the Richelieu statue (finished in 1826, I believe) had been erected there: before the stares were build, or after. It seems, though, that by the beginning of the last century, Richelieu was accepted name. Old postcards are any better than travel guides as a source of reliable information.--Barbatus 22:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
All thouse structures - stairs, boulevard and probably statue were part of same construction plan and years is matter of resources mostly. Statue was opened in April 22, 1828 (old style) (or 1829 according to [1]?). Statue construction was initiated after news of his death in 1822 [2]. Stairs were approved as part of construction plan in June 15, 1826 [3] as well there were wooden/stone (Russian: ракушняк) stairs at same place before - so placement of statue on top of stairs was not accidental. --TAG 23:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
If so, it is totally possible that the steps were called after Richelieu after all, right? By the way, the local variety of the stone, coquina, full of sedimentary sea shells (hence the name), is known in Russian as "ракушечник" (ракушка = sea shell); "ракушняк" is a mere colloquialism.--Barbatus 04:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Correct, I was wrong, the info was added to this page already. Odessaukrain 04:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that everything was built in same time does not mean it was dedicated to one person. For example boulevard was initialy Noviy (Russian: Новый бульвар), then Primorskiy (Russian: Приморский бульвар), Nikolaevskiy (Russian: Николаеский бульвар, named after king Nikolay), Fel'dman (Russian: бульвар Фельдмана) and then again Primorskiy [4]. Never mentioned Richelieu dispute statue is located on it. But we are free to invoke Wikipedia:Verifiability verifiability, not truth rule - and list all others alternative names for stairs as they come from reliable sources. --TAG 12:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I've never said that. Where did you get it from? Not to mention, everything was not built in the same time: more than a decade passed between the dedication of the statue and the steps building ... though it might be insignificant sub specie aeternitatis. Anyhow, it is not unusual in Odessa to have several places named after the same personage, like Ekaterininskaya Square and the Street (by the way, those were named after the St. Catherine, whose church was originally located at the square, not after the Czarina; though, of course, dedicating the church to the patron saint of the monarch was totally not accidental). So, there was (and is again) Rishelievskaya Street, why not have Rishelievskaya Lestnitsa? ... And one other little thing: the Emperor and Czar Nicholas would have been much surprized if somebody called him "king." --Barbatus 13:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
sub specie aeternitatis Latin for "under the aspect of eternity;" in its essential or universal form or nature, a honorific expression describing what is universally and eternally true, without any reference to the temporal portions of reality. I don't understand what you are trying to say with this Latin term, please elaborate. 22:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, missed you question ... my understanding has been so far, that it is not exactly polite to edit someone else's comments, even correct typos. As for the Latin phrase (for it is a phrase, not a term), I meant exactly what I said: that "under the aspect of eternity" the ten years difference could be (is?) insignificant. —Barbatus 10:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Why we still have no City and Primorsky stairs names in article ? Either add here or edit Battleship Potemkin article which mention Primorsky name. --TAG 01:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Power to you, go for it. Odessaukrain 06:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've listed all of them in this talk page once. I've no idea on reason why you ommited some of them during edit. It can be done for some unknown to me purpose. --TAG 09:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I've listed all of them in this talk page once What are you talking about? Odessaukrain 01:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think TAG is refering to the very first posting under this section (see above).--Riurik 02:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Riurik, thanks for the clarification.
Goodness, talking you two truly makes me miss the gruff blutness of former Soviets :)
I've no idea on reason why you ommited some of them during edit. It can be done for some unknown to me purpose.
I have in my edits on the main page the following:
The stairs were originally known as the Boulevard steps, the Giant Staircase, or the Richelieu steps.
These are from three books, you are welcome to add any sources that you have, including those added above. Althought internet sources are usually rather questionable (even more so than guidebooks, which are two of my main sources) I think with something as trival as the name of the stairs, it really is not that important. Happy editing, can we simply let this whole naming thing die? Odessaukrain 04:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Communist Revolution and Potemkin Staircase

This staircase was also a scene of a massacre prefeormed by Tzarist regime during the 1905 revolution. i will conduct a small research and present facts. the massacre was seen in the film "battleship potemkin". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.155.48.48 (talk • contribs)

Please do. As far as I know, the scene of the massacre in the film is nothing but Eisenstein's creativity. Not to mention, the events of 1905 were not a 'communist revolution' by any stretch of imaginagion. —Barbatus 17:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your posts, 88.155.48.48 using ~~~~ I have already done a little research on this topic, at The Battleship Potemkin:
But the massacre on the steps is fictional.
Fabe, Marilyn (Aug 1, 2004). Closely Watched Films: An Introduction to the Art of Narrative Film Technique. University of California Press. ISBN 0520238621.  p. 24 "...fictional bloody massacre on the Odessa Steps..."
Carr, Jay (Jan 1, 2002). The A-List: The National Society of Film Critics' 100 Essential Films. Da Capo Press. ISBN 0306810964.  p. 29 "That there was, in fact, no czarist massacre on the Odessa Steps scarcely diminishes the power of the scene...It is ironic that he did it so well that today the bloodshed on the Odessa steps is often referred to as if it really happened."
Hope this helps. Travb (talk) 21:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Here you go. Thanks, Travis! —Barbatus 08:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massacre Picture

Is the massacre picture really necessary to the article? Does Eisenstein's film define the stairs so much as to warrant the picture of "fictional bloody massacre" to be featured here? I would like to suggest that Image:Potemkinmarch.jpg be not included in this article. --Riurik 18:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree. While mentioning the film is something I was for from the beginning, I'm not sure if we need a picture as well. -- mno 18:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] height

Perhaps my eyes haven't wakened up yet this morning, but I can't find any mention of the total height of the stairs. Could that be made more prominent? —Tamfang 16:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I just added the heights: 30 meters. —dima /sb.tk/ 18:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In-line citations

Do we really need three in-line citations for "The staircase extends for 142 meters, but it gives the illusion of greater length."? Or for "or the Richelieu steps."? Or for the other sentences with 3 citations? I think this is un-needed and unnecessary. Joelito (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in having it here. —dima /sb.tk/ 18:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Well I see harm in it. The references/footnotes section gets unnecessarily longer. The text, in edit mode, gets close to unreadable. Also, a "fact" claimed by 3 authors does not make it more true or unrefutable than being claimed by just one. No need to over-reference simple, uncontroversial statements. Joelito (talk) 21:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The reason for the four cites is there was a small edit war "disagreement" over whether or not the stairs were ever in fact called the Richelieu steps. I didn't think they were, and with a little research, I was proven wrong. See Talk:Potemkin_Stairs#Original_name.3F above. I will compress the four fact tags into one, and change it to be more readable.Odessaukrain 21:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Joelr31, thanks for the great suggestion! I fixed the first paragraph, making the four references into one, and using <!-- -->, it should be much easier to read and edit now, please let me know what you think. Odessaukrain 21:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

There is a mystery to the stairs that is not in the history of the stairs. The ten flights of steps consist of 8 flights of 20 steps each the next to bottom flight has 19 steps and the bottom flight has 13 for a total of 192 steps. History states 200 original steps. Did the bottom partially buried flight have 21 steps or 20 steps? If 20, the stairs were 199 steps and not 200. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Batmanrr (talk • contribs)

I understand that several of the stairs were paved over when the port was expanded. Odessaukrain 23:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)