Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/2008 March 25

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was deleted. Faile WP:NFCC#1. Free images exist. -Nv8200p talk 21:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Tempest-1.jpg

Image tagged as PD-BritishGov - however stated photographer as Charles E Brown, Flight Magazine 1944 - Charles E. Brown was not UK Goverment servant but was a press photographer - therefore image probably still copyrighted.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of his work as a commercial photographer, his entire collection is held at the RAF Museum under their auspices. I therefore would classify his work as being held under RAF copyright, therefore available as part of the UK government copyright. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC).

It depends on when and how the images were transferred to the RAF museum and who actually owns the copyright. They certainly were not Crown Copyright when they were created - according to http://www.rafmuseum.org/london/collections/photographic/charles_brown.cfm the collection was purchased in 1980, which even if the images became crown copyright when they were purchased, would mean that copyright would not be expired. Charles Brown died in 1982, so its possible that they might not become pd until 2052 (70 years after death.)Nigel Ish (talk) 11:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

However, since the RAF Museum presently holds the copyright and distributes materials freely, Charles E Brown images should be considered available to the public, much as any other materials that are held by UK government agencies. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 12:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC).

Sorry Bzuk, it doesn't work like that, for a museum held collection, even one purchased by a semi offical body like the RAF Museum, it is the original copyright that is important, which in this instance is that held by Charles E Brown or his estate, and which presumably transfered to the RAF Museum. It was my understanding that a work did not become Crown copyright merely by purchase...

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 20:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In other words, because I honestly and correctly attributed this work to Charles E Brown the penalty is that the work is to be deleted, in spite of it being used in lots of places elsewhere and attributed as being "RAF official" or "RAF Museum", in which case these must all be in breach of copyright. I've already pointed out the same image appears in black and white in Commons. Nigel Ish you brought this issue up in the first place, do you have any useful suggestions for how to correctly resolve any copyright issues with this image? There are a number of other images which have been correctly attributed to Charles E Brown in various Wikipedia articles.Minorhistorian (talk) 22:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Although I appreciate that the image (and probably the other Charles E Brown photos on Wikipedia was uploaded in good faith, unfortunately, I don't see many easy solutions - you might try making a fair use argument for this photo, in that there may not be many PD colour in flight photographs of Typhoons (although this wouldn't help the images on Commons). I presume the same problems would apply equally to the other photos both here and on Commons, and theoretically even to any Charles Brown photos that people have uploaded and not correctly credited. This really needs the opinion of someone who knows more about the appropriate parts of UK copyright law. Nigel Ish (talk) 23:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice that somone has now put a fair use justification on this image - which may be enough to save it here.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone thought to contact the RAF Museum to clear this matter up for once and for all time? If someone can provide an email contact I would gladly ask who holds copyright on the Brown photographs. I would suggest that this would help others who have fallen into the same trap. Minorhistorian (talk) 05:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Just had a look at the museum website http://navigator.rafmuseum.org/ which specifically precludes the use of images for commercial gain. It also states "Any such use must be properly attributed to both the Trustees of the Royal Air Force Museum and where noted on the record, the Copyright Owner." In other words attributing such a photo to Charles E Brown, as I have already done (should his estate still be the copyright owner), already goes some way to fulfilling the stipulated requirements.Minorhistorian (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.