Talk:Portuguese personal pronouns

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[edit] Could be a part of another page

This could probly be a part of another page or something, is this really an encyclopedia article? Ultrarob 02:23, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

yes, the problem is that there is barely any information on portuguese grammar, this is a kind of an island. But I hope that, as more articles regarding portuguese grammar are added they can be organized in a structure similar to a grammar book. For instance, this article could be under Pronouns, which could be under Morphology. --Cataphract 20:43, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • has everyone that s--Cataphract 02:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)peaks Portuguese these "personal pronouns" are an hard task. thx Cataphract. -Pedro 16:47, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reversed headings?

In tha "Table of Personal Pronouns" under "Indirect Complement", I think the "With" and "Without" are reversed. Any native speakers know? Nelson Ricardo 08:08, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

It is right now. José San Martin 00:08, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Closed deletion listing

This article was listed for deletion on 10 April 2005. The discussion was closed with the result of keep. This article will not be deleted. You can view the discussion, which is no longer live: Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Portuguese_verb_conjugation. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilian usage

Perhaps we should expand/modify the Portuguese pronouns article to cover colloquial/regional use both in Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese, and to highlight the differences between modern and classical Portuguese. For example, the pronoun chart in classical Portuguese was:


Person/number Subject Object Reflexive Possessive
First person, sing. Eu me, mim, comigo me, mim, comigo meu, minha, meus minhas
Second person, sing. Tu te, ti, contigo te, ti, contigo teu, tua, teus, tuas
Third person, sing. Ele, ela o (-lo, -no), a (-la, -na), lhe, ele/ela (following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas
First person, plur. Nós nos, connosco nos, connosco nosso, nossa, nossos, nossas
Second person, plur. Vós vos, convosco vos, convosco vosso, vossa, vossos, vossas
Third person, plur. Eles, elas os (-los, -nos), -as (-las, -nas), lhes, eles/elas (following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas

In modern colloquial European Portuguese, the chart above is modified however to (differences emphasized):

Person/number Subject Object Reflexive Possessive
First person, sing. Eu me, mim, comigo me, mim, comigo meu, minha, meus, minhas
Second person, sing. Tu (familiar) te, ti, contigo te, ti, contigo teu, tua, teus, tuas
Você (deferential) o (-lo, -no), a (-la, -na), lhe, si (following a preposition), consigo se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas
Third person, sing. Ele, ela o (-lo, -no), a (-la, -na), lhe, ele/ela (following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas, dele, dela
First person, plur. Nós (also a gente) nos, connosco nos, connosco nosso, nossa, nossos, nossas
Second person, plur. Vocês vos, convosco, si (following a preposition?) se, si, convosco (?) vosso, vossa, vossos, vossas
Third person, plur. Eles, elas os (-los, -nos), -as (-las, -nas), lhes, ele/ela (following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas, deles, delas

Finally, for modern Brazilian Portuguese, one could propose the following chart (with important remarks below):

Person/number Subject Object Reflexive Possessive
First person, sing. Eu me, mim, comigo me, mim, comigo meu, minha, meus, minhas
Second person, sing. Você te (dir. or ind. obj.), você (dir. obj. or following a preposition), o (-lo, -no), a (-la, -na), lhe se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas
Third person, sing. Ele, ela o (-lo, -no), a (-la, -na), lhe, ele/ela (dir. obj. or following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas, dele, dela
First person, plur. Nós (also a gente) nos, conosco nos, conosco nosso, nossa, nossos, nossas
Second person, plur. Vocês os (-los, -nos), -as (-las, -nas), lhes, vocês (dir.obj. or following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas
Third person, plur. Eles, elas os (-los, -nos), -as (-las, -nas), lhes, eles/elas ( dir. obj. or following a preposition) se, si, consigo seu, sua, seus, suas, deles, delas

Important Remarks about Brazilian usage

  1. In Brazil, the weak clitic pronouns '-o(s)' and '-a(s)' are used almost exclusively in writing or in formal speech (e.g. TV newscasts). In colloquial speech, 'ele(s)' and 'ela(s)' replace the clitics as direct objects (e.g. Vi eles na praia ontem versus Vi-os na praia ontem, Eng. "I saw them on the beach yesterday"). The standard written variants -lo(s) and -las (used after an infinitive ending in 'r') are more frequent though in the colloquial speech of educated Brazilians, but seem to be losing ground as well. Note however that 'ele(s)' or 'ela(s)' are never used as direct objects in formal writing such as newspaper articles, academic papers, or legal documents.
  2. The classical Portuguese 2nd-person pronoun 'tu' is retained only in certain regional BP dialects, most notably gaúcho. Dialects that retain 'tu' also use accordingly 'te', 'ti', 'contigo', and the possessive 'teu'. In General Brazilian Portuguese (as heard for example on national TV), 'te' is still frequently used both as a direct object (alternating with 'você') and as an indirect object (alternating with 'para você'). 'Tu', 'contigo' and 'teu' are however relatively rare in General Brazilian, although they occur occasionally in the speech of Rio de Janeiro and, much less frequently, in São Paulo. The use of -(l)o, -(l)a, etc. replacing 'você' as direct objects is restricted mostly to the written language (in particular, movie subtitles) although it occurs frequently in a few fixed expressions like prazer em conhecê-lo ("pleased to meet you") or Posso ajudá-lo ? ("May I help you ?)
  3. The 'você' (subj.)/'te' (obj.) combination, e.g. Você sabe que eu te amo, is a well-known peculiarity of modern General Brazilian Portuguese and is similar in nature to the 'vocês (subj.)/'vos' (obj.)/ 'vosso' (poss.) combination found in modern colloquial European Portuguese. Both combinations would be condemned though by presciptive school grammars based on the classical language.
  4. In standard Portuguese (both in Brazil and in Portugal), 'você' and 'vocês' are always accompanied by third-person verb forms (e.g. você é, vocês são), whereas tu requires second-person verb forms (e.g. tu és). However, in "tuteante" BP dialects like gaúcho, tu may be accompanied by third-person verb forms, e.g. tu é, tu bebeu vs. standard tu és, tu bebeste. That particular usage is considered substandard (ungrammatical) by most Brazilian speakers whose dialects do not include tu (e.g. "paulistanos").
  5. When addressing older people or hierachical superiors, modern BP speakers often replace 'você' and 'vocês' by the expressions O(s) senhor(es) and A(s) senhora(s), which also require third-person verb forms and third-person object/reflexive/possessive pronouns. 'O(s) senhor(es)' and 'A(s) senhora(s)' are also used in formal contexts in modern EP, in addition to a large number of similar pronominalized nouns that vary according to the person who is being addressed, e.g. a menina , o pai, a mãe, o engenheiro, o doutor, etc.
  6. Due to the use of 'seu(s)', 'sua(s)' as the preferred 2nd-person possessive pronouns in most of Brazil, 'dele(s)' and 'dela(s)' are normally used as 3rd-person possessive markers in lieu of 'seu(s)'/'sua(s)' to eliminate ambiguity, e.g. Onde está o seu carro ("Where is your car ?) vs. Onde está o carro dele ? ("Where is his car ? "). 'Seu'/'Sua' as 3rd-person possessive pronouns are still frequent though, especially in narrative language, when ambiguity can be generally solved from the context, e.g. O candidato Geraldo Alckmin apresentou ontem a sua proposta para aumentar a geração de empregos no Brasil ("Candidate Geraldo Alckmin presented yesterday his proposal to increase job creation in Brazil").
  7. 'Se', 'si, and 'consigo' are used in standard written BP exclusively as reflexive pronouns, e.g. Os manifestantes trouxeram consigo paus e pedras para se defenderem da violência policial ("Protesters brought (wood)sticks and stones with them to protect themselves against police brutality") , or Os políticos discutiam entre si o que fazer diante da decisão do Supremo Tribunal ("Politicians discussed among themselves what to do in face of the Supreme Court decision"). In colloquial language, those reflexive forms may be replaced however by subject pronouns (e.g. Discutam entre vocês em que data preferem fazer o exame vs standard Discutam entre si em que data preferem fazer o exame, Eng. "Discuss among yourselves when you prefer to take the exam"). Note also that in both standard and colloquial BP, it is considered wrong to use 'se', 'si', 'consigo' in non-reflexive contexts. Therefore, unlike in modern colloquial EP, 'para si' for example cannot ordinarily replace 'para você', nor can consigo ordinarily replace com você.
  8. The use of 'lhe' as a 2nd-person indirect object is actually rare in General BP, where 'lhe' is often replaced as noted above by 'te' or, alternatively, para 'você'. "Lhe-ísmo", i.e. the use of 'lhe' not only as a common 2nd-person indirect object (e.g. eu lhe disse que [...], Eng. "I told you that [...]") , but also as a 2nd-person direct object (e.g. Eu lhe vi na praia ontem, Eng. "I saw you on the beach yesterday") is frequent though in Northeastern Brazilian dialects, especially in Bahia.
  9. In standard written BP, it is common to use 'lhe(s)' as a third-person indirect object, e.g. O presidente pediu que lhe dessem notícias da crise na Bolívia. In the colloquial language, 'lhe' in that context is frequently replaced by 'para ele', although educated speakers might use 'lhe' in speech as well.
  10. In substandard BP, especially in regional dialects like caipira, object pronouns may be avoided altogether, even in the first person. For example: Ele levou nó(i)s no baile (standard BP Ele nos levou ao baile) or Ela viu eu na escola (standard BP Ela me viu na escola). These examples, although common in rural areas and in working-class speech, would sound ungrammatical to most urban middle-class BP speakers.200.177.24.117 00:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Some comments:

  1. This could also be good material for the Brazilian Portuguese article.
  2. You forgot about o senhor/a senhora, etc. It and its variants are actually much more common (and more respectful) in European Portuguese than você.
  3. Connosco is spelled with double n in European Portuguese.
  4. Vos is not used universally as an object form of vocês in Portugal. You also hear os/as/lhes. Sometimes, the same person will use all four.

FilipeS 16:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me of the spelling of "connosco". On the use of "o senhor" in EP, see note 5 above. On the "vos" point, I've been monitoring Portuguese TV lately (talk shows, soap operas, etc...) and "vos" seems to be consistently used as the object pronoun corresponding to "vocês". Are "os/as/lhes" used in formal address ? 200.177.16.42 01:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: Just out of curiosity, does the 1990 Luso-Brazilian Ortographic Agreement include any proposal to unify the spelling of "connosco"/"conosco" ?

  1. Re O senhor: O.K., check.
  2. Re Vos: I won't deny that vos is the counterpart of vocês most commonly used for the object of a verb. Nevertheless, you also hear os/as/lhes, sometimes. Plus, according to traditional grammar, os/as/lhes are the preferred forms to use with vocês. By the way, the same kind of comment applies to você (o senhor, etc.) and si.
  3. Re Connosco: I don't remember. You can find the text of the agreement in here. FilipeS 21:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. See also Talk: Brazilian Portuguese. FilipeS 22:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mesoclisis

Hi, just wondering how you're gonna say "He will buy it to us." with mesoclisis. Is "Ele comprar-no-lo-á." correct? Thanks. Qrfqr 23:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "convidamo-vos"

I deleted the example "convidamos-vos" from the last paragraph of section "Proclisis, enclisis, and mesoclisis". See [1] -Cataphract 03:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. I didn't know that myself! FilipeS 11:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article losing grammatical focus

I think this article is becoming cluttered with unimportant region by region details on the usage of the pronouns (read the "Tu vs. Você" section to know what I'm talking about). That should be moved elsewhere. --Cataphract 02:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Regional differences between pronoun usage are a fact of life in Portuguese. If you don't know about them, you're not ready to go out into the real world and talk to the natives. I suppose the regional differences could be moved to other articles, such as Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese, but then I fear that this article would keep being edited by well-intentioned folks trying to bring the moved regional info back. FilipeS 22:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)