Talk:Porgy and Bess

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Former featured article Porgy and Bess is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 20, 2005.
Peer review This Arts article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

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[edit] older entries

This article needs to be featured, but a lot of work needs to be done. I have put it up for Peer Review for this reason. I feel more emphasis needs to be put on the music, not just the story. --Alexs letterbox 06:01, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have put in a section about the use of motifs, complete with samples and excerpts, but I need help on how the copyright should be handled. I have tagged them "Fairold". I think this will highlight the musical genius, not just the story. --Alexs letterbox 07:52, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A lot of the work seems to be done. I have put it up for Peer Review again to see if the article is ready for FA.

This is definitely no longer a stub! Yay! It needs a copyedit and some proofreading, but I added as much relevant information to make this a strong encyclopedia reference in order to initiate those not familiar with the work, etc .

I hope to make all the red links into new articles eventually. Feel free to create at least a stub on a few of them if you can, or a whole article if possible. :) --Sketchee 09:36, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

It's amazing how far this article has come from when it was a stub last December! Good job everyone. =) --Sketchee 11:32, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to the example of leitmotif section

Someone rewrote my badly written explanations of the musical excerpts with the following:

George Gershwin establishes leitmotifs early in the opera to establish characters musically, and uses an intertwining of these themes to show conflict between characters. Bess' idea of Porgy is expressed by snippets of Porgy's aria "Bess, you is my woman now," in which Porgy tells Bess he will take care of her the murder of Crown.
Her idea of Sportin' Life is shown through snippets of his aria "There's a boat that's leavin' soon for New York" in which the drug peddler tries to persuade Bess to leave Catfish Row with him.
Bess's difficult decision to follow him is represented by a conflict of these two melodies. The first is heard in a sparse and distant orchestration.
But when Sportin' Life is sure that Bess will follow him, his own song is heard in a dazzling, overblown orchestration, complete with swaggering rhythms.
This contrast represents Sportin' Life's successful corruption of Bess's love for Porgy.

The grammar and style has been improved, but in terms of the interpretation, 'It Ain't Neccessarily So'. Firstly, Bess, you is my woman now is a duet between Porgy and Bess, where they pledge their fidelity to one another:

Oh, my Porgy, my man Porgy,
From this minute I'm tellin' you, I keep dis vow;
Porgy, I's yo' woman now.

Porgy does not plan to murder Crown in this aria. In I loves you Porgy, he says:

An' remember, when Crown come, that's my business, Bess!

This is the only evidence of Porgy's intentions.

I have changed these explanations to follow what I believe to be the correct interpretation after consulting the libretto. If anyone else has a different interpretation, please write it in the article, but leave a message on the Talk page. --203.129.42.211 01:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm surprised racism wasn't talked about at all...

I'm surprised racism wasn't talked about at all...

I added some very breif history about it's racist history. User:Erasmus1

Hello, thanks for your additions. However, I think we need to make a clear distinction between assertions that the play itself is racist and racist reactions to it. Also, it would be helpful if you could cite your sources for the Seattle quotes. -- Viajero 19:23, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I've cut this material from the article, pending clarity on citation. Some of this is clearly true, but I have my doubts about its precision. This really needs citations: it's clearly a controversial area, and the passage includes direct quotations. This needs to be fixed and restored.

When the play first appeared, it met with a certain resistance. The Negro Repertory Theater of Seattle boycotted it through a whisper campaign. George Hood, the Washington State administrator for the Federal Theater Project, said "the play is something that really is not wanted in Seattle or any other place. It is too degrading... Any play that is elevating to the race, we have no objections to... But there is nothing to be gained from Porgy. In Porgy the word 'Nigger' is used consistently, and that is something the general population is not going to tolerate. We do not need Porgy." Another issue was dialect. African Americans in Seattle had to attend dialect lessons. Administrators of the Federal Theater Project said "Colored people in Seattle don't speak Black enough. We need this to be authentic. "

The only thing I could find quickly on line was this page from Seattle's HistoryLink, about Seattle's Negro Repertory Company (not "Negro Repertory Theater") during this period. The relevant paragraph there is the one beginning, "Problematic for Seattle performers, who did not speak in dialect, was the white expectation that black roles required the use of black dialect…" I don't see any basis there to talk about "a whisper campaign": the actors were openly unhappy about the prospect of the production, and it was cancelled. (Also, according to that site, even before being canceled outright, the use of dialect was dropped.) Given these (admittedly not enormous) errors, I really want to see a citation on the quotation from George Hood.

The HistoryLink page has extensive citations, and looks like it would be a great starting point for an article on Seattle's Negro Repertory Company. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:16, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

  • Belated change: I'll put something briefer into the article, citing the one source I found. Again, no objection to this being fleshed back out, but accurately and with citations, please. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:16, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Progress towards featured article status

[edit] Redlinks

Some redlinks removed in the past month (by myself and others): John W. Bubbles, Stoll Theatre, Alexander Smallens, Colonial Theatre, Neil Simon Theatre (former Alvin Theatre), Porgy, Warren Coleman, Helen Dowdy, Georgette Harvey, Majestic Theatre, Ziegfeld Theatre, Avon Long, Vienna Volksoper (!)... --BaronLarf 21:33, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Checklist towards FA status

Alexs letterbox requested that I put together a checklist of what needs to be done before this article might reach Featured Article status. I've never been involved in getting an article to this status before, but by looking at Wikipedia:What is a featured article, one can get an idea of what needs to be done. (Note that no opera, or any piece of classical music, has reached this status before. We're charting new territory here.)

  • Summary of the musical elements of the opera (ex: use of fugue, use of Broadway-like songs, recitative, etc)
  • A bit more on the history of composition; something about Gershwin's Suite from "Porgy and Bess", later named Catfish Row by Ira.
  • A template at the bottom of Porgy and Bess related articles (like Template:Oz on The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. This would allow for easier navigation through the articles.
  • Better examination of Race and Porgy and Bess, using sources for documentation
  • A full list of the songs
  • Pictures. Are the photographs really fair use?
  • If any section gets to big, it should be broken into its own article

When we have reached consensus on the article, it should be posted at Wikipedia:Peer review for further examination and comment. After that step, we should apply for FA status at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates.

If anyone else has anything to add here, please do. Cheers.--BaronLarf 06:20, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] P&B on the main page

To register your comments on getting P&B on the main page, see Wikipedia talk:Tomorrow's featured article#Porgy and Bess --BaronLarf 12:55, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

August 20th, it's on the main page.[1]--BaronLarf 11:27, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Restore the sound files

Please restore the sound files. As they were computer-generated rather than taken from a copyrighted recording, they are no more a stretching of fair use than the printed lines of musical notes from which they are directly derived. They are also extremely short. It would be a shame if this article was featured on the Main Page without giving any hint of what Porgy and Bess actually sounds like to the ear; remember, many have never heard a recording, except maybe of "Summertime". I think the very short excerpts add significantly to the impact to the article.--Pharos 19:33, 3 August 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Additional information on racial controvery

I just updated the "Racial controversy" section with additional information (all referenced, of course) and renamed the section head from "Racial dimension," which downplayed the controvery over the play's racial issues. I also removed several POV issues with regard to play which seemed to try to spin the play's issues with race. In fact, I was disturbed that a Featured Article which will soon be on the main page had so many POV issues. Reading the article, I felt that some previous editor (or editors) was using the article to try and clear the play's name (with regard to how some people see the play as racist). This is not what Wikipedia is for. Simply present all of the information and let the reader make their own decisions--Alabamaboy 19:55, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

There has been no attempt to whitewash the history of the perception of this opera. If you have a problem with a certain editor's contributions, feel free to let us know individually; I added a good deal of the text to the article, so I feel as if they are directed at myself. Your additions are, of course, welcome. I have no problem with clearly spelling out that many have considered this work racist as long as it is also made clear that there also also many who see it as a work representative of its time; that is, a work representative of the social stereotypes of the era, though still a work full of human passion. Also, not only African Americans consider the work racists; Virgil Thomson was a white composer. As you said, let's just present all the information — opinion on the opera is not uniform. Cheers. --BaronLarf 22:19, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong--this is a very good article. I wasn't trying to attack previous editors, only bring the article to the best possible shape. However, it troubled me when I read it today because of POV sentences like:
  • "Forty years later, Europe and (finally) America welcomed Porgy and Bess for what it was." (I added the bold emphasis).
  • "But, over time, the opera has gained acceptance from the opera community and the African American community at large." I'd say at best, the African American community is divided on the play, as evidenced by this message board on the opera.
I was also disturbed by the lack of mention in the lead about the racial controversy.
That said, the article is deserving of featured article status and I feel that with these changes (and your excellent edits to my edits) that the article will be in far better shape to survive the edit wars and vandalism that will surely come from being on the front page. If you want, I'd be happy to help keep an eye on the article when it's on the front page and revert any vandalism. Also, did I correct the in-line reference correctly? Best,--Alabamaboy 00:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your edits, and your perspective. The article is indeed better now than it was a few days ago. The inline links look better, too; the article had undergone some rearranging, and the notes weren't sorted along with it. Sorry if I came off as too defensive. Cheers. --BaronLarf 06:57, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gershwin context

This article could with a bit more context on George Gershwin's broader work, his ideas about the relationship between popular and classical music, and how this works out in writing a "folk opera" - BTW, it would be great if we could link to a short article on that.--Pharos 00:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, the George Gershwin article could indeed use a good deal of work; I would argue that a discussion of his broader work and his ideas about music should go in an article about him alone. I'm also particularly wary of large scale edits to this article only a few days before the article goes on the main page. But I agree that an addition of this information to Wikipedia would be useful, and could be linked to from this article. --BaronLarf 06:52, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music doesn't play

I click on "listen" and get a blank page. My Windows Media Player 9 has ogg codecs installed. -- Sitearm | Talk 16:59, 2005 August 20 (UTC)

Minor point: Glyndebourne isn't in London, it's a country estate east of Lewes in Sussex, so I've chnged the comment to read "England's Glyndebourne Festival". --

[edit] Performance in Copenhagen

"Royal Opera House in Copenhagen"!? I don't think the house in "Kongens Nytorv" has ever been called the "Royal Opera House". I think the name must be the either Royal Theatre [2] or the Royal Danish Opera [3]... The "Copenhagen Opera House" is recently built [4]. --fnielsen 09:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Stokely and Tess"

Mad #111 (June 1967) did a full-length parody of Porgy and Bess called "Stokely and Tess", commenting on then current African American politics and including a song "It Ain't Necessarily Stoke" in which a more moderate African American states rejects Carmichael's "Black Power" views. It was recently discussed at some length by Gerald Early (The Great Black Hope, The Nation, posted March 9, 2006; March 27, 2006 issue). Early mentions something I'd forgotten: that this was part of Mad's "Special Racial Issue", which also parodied the Bill Cosby TV Show I Spy. Early remarks, among other things, "It was probably the first time in American history when the political divisions among blacks mattered to whites… "Stokely and Tess" also marked the end of an era, in the sense that the assassination of King the following April made it virtually impossible for anyone to treat the movement or King with such gleeful irreverence."

Anyway, I'm not sure where any of this belongs, but I think it belongs in Wikipedia somewhere. Maybe this article? I'm open to other suggestions (I've also left notes at Talk:Mad magazine and Talk:Stokely Carmichael). - Jmabel | Talk 19:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to libretto

As far as I know, the libretto is still in copyright. Should we really link to it? (The website appears to be based in Russia, do they have different laws?) --Alexs letterbox 12:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a good question; I was thinking the same thing when I saw the link. --BaronLarf 01:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] RLP

I just removed about 10 red links to obscure people. Please do not put them back. It makes the article better. Nezzadar 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nina Simone interpretations of Porgy & Bess songs

Shouldn't this be added to the wikipage?:

Nina Simone recorded several well known versions of Porgy & Bess songs. She made her debut in 1959 with a version of I Loves You, Porgy, which became a number one hit in the American charts. She also recorded Porgy I is Your Woman Now, Summertime (duh, who hasn't?) and My Man's Gone Now.Marcel flaubert 14:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Just remember to put sources (especially for the "number one hit"). See WP:REF for more details. --Alexs letterbox 08:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recordings

I've eliminated the last sentence/paragraph in this section because it was merely an unsubstantiated opinion, with nothing to back it up. The performances mentioned are discussed in the body of the article, anyway. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greenmountain (talk • contribs) 20 September 2006.

I've removed the last paragraph of the "Recordings" section again, for the same reason -- it's merely an opinion with nothing to back it up. I consider myself to be an "operatic purist," and I don't agree at all that these are the best recordings of "Porgy." In fact, they are much inferior to the Lehmann Engel recording, and the recent version by the Nashville Symphony, both of which observe the cuts and other changes made by Gershwin himself.

[edit] New York City Opera

Do we really need two separate mentions of the 2000/2002 revival by the New York City Opera (the first of which, I might add, gushes a bit). - Jmabel | Talk 05:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fun fact

Typing "wikipeida" (spelled incorrect for a reason) into Google and hitting the "i fell lucky" button routes you to this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.129.85.118 (talk • contribs) 16 December 2006.

And who knosw what the "I feel lucky" button would have done… - Jmabel | Talk 06:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The black 'lawyer'

Can someone get a reference for a black lawyer being "fake", i was under the impression that he was a real lawyer who just happened to behave unethically(of course i can be wrong, just making sure).--Hq3473 03:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

He definitely is a fake, read the libretto. --Alexs letterbox 07:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I did, he is. Thanks --Hq3473 02:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


There is an error in the section about the 1959 film, which states that Sammy Davis Jr was dubbed by Cab Calloway. Davis's own voice was used in the film but his exclusive recording contract, I think with Decca, prevented him from appearing on the soundtrack album, which was on the Columbia label. Calloway's voice was substituted on that album but not in the film.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Porgy and Bess 1959 poster.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Porgy and Bess - Rattle 2.jpg

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[edit] Concerns about referencing in the Use of leitmotif section

Without a reference to a published work supporting the particular analysis given there, it could potentially be seen as a violation of "No Original Research". This is a good article, a reference would really help. Voceditenore 09:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There is really no reference. This was amoungst my first work on Wikipedia. If some believe it to be OR, I do not object to it being removed. --Alexs letterbox 09:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Was it Gershwin's intention that only Blacks should perform this opera?

I guess he was trying to be nice to black people, but at the same time assuming that black opera singers would never make it in mainstream opera, so he wanted to make sure they would at least be able to to THIS opera. Kind of a passe' notion! In Europe, anyway, this opera is performed all the time with white casts. It's best that this opera lose its stereotypical association with black people, I think. Belafonte was right: The only opera written about African-Americans, and the characters are a beggar, a prostitute, a pimp and a dope pusher! Not a bad drama, but let's lose the racial angle!

Actually, I think I recall reading that Duke Ellington did write an opera about African-Americans. Tom129.93.17.135 03:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

There have been several operas about African-Americans, including one by Anthony Davis about Malcolm X. - Jmabel | Talk 01:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I was going to put an {{Infobox Musical}} on the page, but, being as how its an FA and all, I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. If anyone objects, lmk. —  MusicMaker5376 07:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it is not a musical in the normal sense of the word. It requires singers, musicians and a conductor that are all operatically trained. However, it has been presented as a musical many times. How does your project define a musical? What can a Musical Infobox do that the Opera project infobox cannot? Just use your discretion. --Alexs letterbox 08:03, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I am sure that there are people at the opera project who would object more strenously than Alex. I don't think you should put the infobox on this article. They have objected strongly in the past. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 14:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox musical basically contains fields for music, lyrics, book, basis, productions, and awards. Any or all of them can be left off (though I don't know what sense leaving them all of would be....), and it doesn't actually contain the word "musical". Like this, probably:
Porgy and Bess
Music George Gershwin
Lyrics Ira Gershwin
Book DuBose Heyward
Based upon DuBose Heyward's novel Porgy
Productions 1935 New York City
1976 Houston Grand Opera
Major productions worldwide
It does use the musical theatre convention "book" instead of "libretto".... —  MusicMaker5376 05:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that Porgy and Bess is primarily an opera (the only such work by Gerswhin), so it shouldn't have an infobox. --Folantin 13:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. This is an opera, and really shouldn't have an infobox. -- Kleinzach 17:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
One of the objections that Opera Project members have to infoboxes for operas is that the box redundantly repeats material that appears alongside in the article's opening paragraph - composer, librettist, first performance, etc. The example alongside seems to confirm this. --GuillaumeTell 17:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I won't put it on, but I need to ask: why shouldn't operas have infoboxes? EVERY infobox on WP basically reiterates the lead -- that's the point. What makes an opera so special? (I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just wondering.) —  MusicMaker5376 20:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand many projects are against having infoboxes, e.g. the Composers and Classical Music projects, and science and technology projects. Also in print publishing boxes are used sparingly. -- Kleinzach 06:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crippled / disabled

This edit, changing a description of Porgy as "a cripple" to "disabled" seems like political correctness run amok. I would like to revert it, but will not do so without discussion. (What's next, Dickens? The poor disabled-and-deprived-of-necessary-medical-assistance Tiny - oh sorry, Under-average-size - Tim?) - Jmabel | Talk 01:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Judaism

Why is this article included in WikiProject Judaism? Yes, Gershwin was Jewish (but not religious, and that is a project on the religion, not the ethnicity). And, yes, he raided the Jewish liturgy for some musical themes, but that seems a bit of a stretch. - Jmabel | Talk 01:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It was added by a bot, I have removed it. --Alexs letterbox 05:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Controversy of the Opera as a whole compared to the success of the individual songs

I am not really familiar with this opera, and was thus, somewhat surprised to read about the level of racial controversy that the opera provoked, because many of the songs from it, mainly "Summertime," are quite beloved and do not seem to share this particular controversy, and George and Ira Gershwin also do not seem to attract the same type of criticism as the opera.

Some clarity on that would strengthen the article, in my opinion, though, regrettably, I am ill-qualified to handle that, so I thought I would put up a request for some clarity in that issue. There seems to be some, but the issue still seems unresolved. Is it concerned a noble yet terribly ill-researched project by the Gershwins and Heywards? Or is it the lyrics and/or libretto that bear the brunt of the criticism? It just isn't clear to me, and I'd personally like to know, as would, I'm certain, many others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.35.169 (talk) 03:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 1.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 1.ogg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 2.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 2.ogg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 3.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 3.ogg

Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 3.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 4.ogg

Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 4.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 5.PNG

Image:PorgyAndBess Extract 5.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Critical response section

This article needs a critical response section if it is to be considered for GA or FA again. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)