Image talk:Portuguese empire.png

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Greenland?? 84.219.25.93 14:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Greenland indeed! The map seems to be composed of every piece of coast ever visited by a Portuguese ship, including also Labrador (which at least has a Portuguese name) with Newfoundland, New Brunswick, northern Nova Scotia, Kyūshū, and practically the entire coast of Africa.

This map is a piece of imaginative fiction. Ariwara 11:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ariwara, you're free to refuse this map of not but the Portuguese have indeed established a colony in Terra do Labradora and Terra Nova do Balalhau(Portuguese names that are still used today for those lands) although for only 20 to 30 years, this map shows every territory during maximum extent of the Portuguese Empire in the 16th century and these lands were among them. In fact this map doesn't even show some territories deeper in the African Continent but the reality was that at that time there were kingdoms that were under military and Administrative domination of Portugal, although at that time they have only founded coastal cities and fortresses in Africa, even in Brazil the territory should be even further inwards the continent because it belonged to the capitances at that time, however, none of these are in map and you don't see none of us complaining. If the lands had a a couple of colonies there, then the colonies were the economical centre of those parts, thus also controlling a certain extention of territory around them, to which there is no doubt that the territories where explored even further. You may refure it but it's even exploration records and I've never seen any historian denny this fact, unfortunately, sometimes ignorance may lead to refusal, and there is a lot of ignorance among people concerning the portuguese empire in both it's territories and it's real economical and political impact in history, unfortunately this appears only due to ignorance.

Which still does'nt explain Greenland? I mean, Greenland????

Obviously you you have not read the article. In short Portugal had colonies in Greenland, Terra Nova and Terra Nova do Bacalhau, in fact, besides from having the colonies there, some historians suspect they had them there even earlier, 1460/70's aprox. It is a known fact that the Vikings ad colonies there and from there they reached canada in the 1000's, yet Portugal also had colonies in these same places, although for a relatively short time.

This map is indeed BS. --Janneman 14:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I did this map. And yes, Greenland. I must say I was expecting someone to talk about portuguese North American possessions in this map... OK, let's go to the point:

Portugal did have lands in North America (I'm including Greenland). They were not famous, that's why nobody knows about them (even in Portugal). João Fernandes "Lavrador" and Pêro de Barcelos explored Greenland and Labrador, but the date is matter of dispute (1492, 1495, 1498, 1499). AFAIK the letter of king Manuel I to João Fernandes giving rights of the lands he would discovert is only of 1499. After that Miguel and Gaspar Corte-Real explored Newfoundland and near coasts, in 1500-1501. They disappeared but some ships returned to Portugal. Another expedition was set to look for them. We do not know how many voyages went there. In 1521 João Álvares Fagundes asked permition to colonise those lands, and the king accepted. The colony was abandoned in 1526, and we do not know why. After that, we do not know if portuguese presence was significative or not, but fishermen continued to fish in Newfoundland.

This is the history. Unfortunately, portuguese discoveries were mostly secret, so we have very few documents. And we have maps. And maps that show those lands as portuguese.

Cantino 1502 http://docenti.lett.unisi.it/files/33/1/6/1/cantino.jpg The first uncontroversial representation of Newfoundland (and maybe the land dispicted is also Labrador, connected to Newfoundland). And the name that appears is... "Land of the king of Portugal", and it has two portuguese flags in it. Greenland also has portuguese flags in it, although I cannot see what name appears above it. It is enough to show that those lands were portuguese. But let's analyze some more maps.

Ribero/Ribeiro 1529 search in internet We have a Land of Corte-Real and a Land of Lavrador. Interestingly, Greenland is connected to Labrador, wich might explain why Labrador visited both (remember there was a mini ice age in the 15th century, so maybe they were connected)

Waldseemuller 1507 http://docenti.lett.unisi.it/files/33/1/6/2/wald.jpg We have a land in North Atlantic with the portuguese flag (you may search for a coloured map, to see portuguese flag better). It may be Newfoundland or Newfoundland+Labrador or Newfoundland+Labrador+Greenland. I cannot tell what it is.

Lopo Homem 1519 hard to find We have a map of Newfoundland and Labrador with portuguese shields and lots of portuguese names

Vaz Dourado c.1576 search in internet We have again a portuguese shield and portuguese names

We have lots of another maps, and also about Fagundes.

I hope the Greenland/Newfoundland/Labrador thing is clear now, as they were short lived portuguese possessions. The only doubt I have in the map is the Barbados thing. I included it but maybe I shouldn't, I never heard of it and I just heard about it in the Portuguese Empire page. Anyway the map is clearly conservative, and is not fantasy nor BS. If you have doubts, just look at the documents and maps and books.Câmara 23:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The map still remains misleading and highly inaccurate, since it implies control and sovereignty over the colored lands & shores; this is , however, not at all the case in Newfoundland. As someone wrote above: this map simply shows every piece of coast ever visited by a Portuguese ship, including Africa all around. --Janneman 20:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The UK for example doesn't need to have control of the Sandwich Islands. It's not need to have a soldier in every square meter of terrain. Let's discuss this on the portuguese empire page (in "exploration=empire?") where it is more visible to someone who wants to talk about it, as it is an interesting discussion.Câmara 12:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Alas, the OK does have control of the Sandwich Islands, and it is internationally recognized; You shuold know how the UK responded when Argentina pushed ITS claim to the Sandwichs (not only the Falklands). The map is still BS and should be deleted. --Janneman 17:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. That didn't happen 500 years ago: only Portugal claimed it. Portugal explored it and claimed it. The international recognition was the treaty of Tordesillas, by "Spain" and the Pope, everything east of the line was portuguese (newfoundland wasn't but at that time was difficult to know; of course portuguese cartographers moved it the more to the east they could). And nobody else claimed it.Câmara 19:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

alrighters, so why don't you just color half the globe blue? --Janneman 19:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Because Portugal didn't claim all half the world and/or there were countries that opposed. All the coast of Africa except the mediterranean and red sea was claimed and there were no recognized/organized states there that opposed portuguese claim. The existing ones tolerated portuguese presence (like Kingdom of Congo) or were destroyed. In Asia Portugal had diplomatic ties with asiatic states: Persia, some indian kingdoms, Siam, China, Japan, for example. When do you think Brazil become portuguese? In 1500 when Cabral discovered it or in the 1530's when it was started to be colonised?Câmara 20:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greenland lol

Greenland has never been a Portuguese. --Arigato1 07:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

See the portuguese empire page, where is being discussed "exploration=empire?". More people are able to discuss there.Câmara 12:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearly this article's discussion page shows that there are people who have problems in accepting documented history. Unlike the Australia explorations and any consensus about early colonizations efforts, the colonizations efforts of Newfondland and north america are documented. Normally people have problems in accepting things they have never heard before in their life.

Well I say, read a book instead of continuously denying things from people who are informed in this subject. Tt's not a theory, it's not a consensus, it's documented and thus firmly proved historically.

Thorius Maximus 03:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)