Talk:Polly Toynbee

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[edit] Troll

"has been described as the journalistic equivalent of an internet troll".

Fathers For Justice Matt O'Connor

For Polly to claim in her newspaper that any father denied the human right to see or speak to their own children under UK law should be sent to prison for protesting is frankly the reason the paper she works for is not fit for toilet paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.119.254 (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Citation?

preceding comment by Raygirvan (talk), 21:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gadfly

she is an intellectual gadfly, while I don't necessarily disagree with this assesment, it is clearly POV, so I'm removing it.--Alun 20:32, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't see that as objectionable - it's a concise way of saying that she isn't just reproducing a 'chattering class' line. Charles Matthews 16:25, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Dunno. "Gadfly" implies to me a specific role, writing irritating stuff to constructive purpose (ie goading the establishment into thought). Though I also think it a reasonable assessment, that interpretation nevertheless looks to me a POV inference rather than a generally-agreed fact. RayGirvan 19:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Gadflies are always constructive? But perhaps this should all be spelled out anyway. Charles Matthews 11:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

It still seems to me that it's a POV statement. If one describes her as an intellectual gadfly and someone else disagrees (for example claims that she's merely contrary), then both, surely must be points of view. And of course stating that some consider her to be... doesn't cut the mustard either.--Alun 17:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that she is a rather silly old woman who has profited by her name. Who would be so stupid as to blame the Pope for the AIDS crisis in Africa, or anywhere for that matter. Silly Cow.
preceding comment by 65.92.58.120 (talk), 01:17, 11 June 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Left-wing or Liberal?

In my view in the UK context, "left wing" refers to someone to the left of Tony Blair and New Labour. Toynbee is ex-SDP, and a supporter, on the whole, of the Blair project. In as much as she differs from Blair, it is over the governments non-secular policies, secularism being a well-known LIBERAL objective. Thus I stand by my amendment of a month ago, and will act accordingly. Philip Cross 18:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Polly has never refered to herself as a "Liberal". If we look, for example, at her stances on taxation, she recently claimed that Britain is currently "not a high enough tax country." That is not a Liberal remark and neither are many of her suedo-socialist utterings. It's left-wing I'm afraid.
preceding comment by 86.130.68.75 (talk)
Has Polly refered to herself as 'left-wing' either? One can be liberal politically yet want higher taxes, ie. Liberal Democrats. You may be getting confused with economic liberalism. please see Liberalism for more details. Also, 'left wing' / 'right wing' are such vague terms (different meanings on different sides of the atlantic) that their use on wikipedia shouldn't be encouraged, particularly when a much more accurate term is available. Veej 01:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
But the term "liberal" has an even more sharp divide in meaning between the different sides of the Altantic.
James F. (talk) 14:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In the MoS today Peter Hitchens describes her as "the liberal commentator Polly Toynbee" so I think that supports the term "liberal". Miamomimi 23:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Given the general context in which Peter Hitchens writes, it's highly unlikely he is referring to her as an economic liberal. His concerns have generally been in reference to social and moral trends (see his wiki article for details). The "Blair Project" is, generally speaking, an economic one, or at least that's where the labour party has divisions on it (not many divisions around improving social responsibility or civil partnerships).
Therefore, it would seem fair to describe Toynbee as a social liberal but unfair to call her an economic one and if the only cited basis for referring to her as a liberal in the article is Hitchen's comment, then the "moral" context should be made clear. Kayman1uk 10:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And... having reread the article, I think it does that. Kayman1uk 10:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
For that matter Peter Hitchens describes Polly Toynbee as "left-wing" at least twice in the collection of his old Express articles, Monday Morning Blues. Probably Hitchens is not the best arbiter to cite, though I cannot help wondering if he gets royalty payments from Richard Desmond's company for it. Despite Toynbee's occasional illiberal attitudes, the attack on the Scottish contingent in New Labour some years ago for example, the term "liberal" has a consistent enough meaning in the anglophone world for anyone coming across the article not to misled as to where Toynbee is coming from. Philip Cross 14:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Have we adopted American usage of the world 'liberal' wholesale in this country? Polly Toynbee is certainly not liberal as the term is normally used in the UK (note that she returned to the Labour Party after the SDP merger with the Liberals). She may or may not be 'left-wing', a fairly subjective term anyway. She, however, certainly is a social democrat, so perhaps we could call her a social democratic commentator? Gerry Lynch 11:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Her liberal-ness (in the sense of law and order) is mildly authorotarian, with calls to prevent the opening of 'super casinos' being an example of her desire for the state to take away 'freedom of choice'. She is not 'liberal' if we are considering liberal to mean in favour of maximum individual freedom - almost all of her publications favour more action by the state and (in turn) less 'freedom of choice' from the individual.
Whether or not one agrees with her stances, her writing shows her to be in favour of increased state power in virtually all aspects of our life. Her policies are 'progressive' in that she continually pushes for great redistribution of wealth and better services for the public.
This entry, I think, doesn't mention enough about her 'political stance' - as she is a leading 'opinions page' collumnist I feel it would be a worthwhile addition to the article (although I understand difficult to produce from a NPOV). ny156uk 18:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Advocating super casinos is hardly 'liberal' in the social sense, which how the term seems to be mostly used in the US and the UK. "Taking away freedom of choice" by NOT having them, hardly a case of "increased state power" then, is an 'economically liberal' or neo-liberal argument, and Toynbee is not in that camp. Are you suggesting we make the distinction clear each time potential confusion aries? Who in any case wants them apart from the gambling companies and New Labour? Philip Cross 19:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I am suggesting that it is wrong to suggest that Toynbee is Liberal in the basic sense, and since the classic sense is derived from the long-held meaning of the ideology then it should be qualified to be the branch of liberalism that most closely relates to her views (seemingly social liberalism).
The casino part is mostly irrelevent, I was trying to show an example where her preference is less-individual freedom and more government-control (that it is the status quo doesn't matter). Her position, I believe, would firmly put her in the social-liberalism section you mentioned and if you look at the articles on both types you must see the differences are quite significant and worthy of seperation.

[edit] More evidence of not being liberal

Following up my consideration that she is not liberal, her piece in the newspapers this week (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1941209,00.html) shows yet again examples of her believing in state-power over individual freedom. ny156uk 17:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Toynbee would argue that you are presenting a false dichotomy between state action and individual freedom. How free is a person with no money at all? They are not opposites; somtimes state action can enhance freedom.

This was the insight of the New Liberals of the early twentieth century, who moved liberalism on from the rather nineteenth century view you hold.

Clearly, to avoid this confusion, it is sensible to describe her as a social democrat. Polly is in favour of social democracy, a mixture of states and markets, on the Scandanavian model. You are acting as if she is some kind of Stalinist who believes in total state control, which is absurd. Indeed, she is a militant defender of free speech from the incursions of the state, to name just one. David r from meth productions 17:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.-- Jreferee 22:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Narnia quote

My contention is that this passage should be retained. Toynbee's attitude to religion is a significant part of her outlook, and this passage develops the reference to her atheism. She is a prominent atheist in Britain, and the reference here to 'disbelief' should not be allowed to be merely passing. It is also perhaps the reason why certain people not a million miles away from the Daily Mail (sorry, Mail on Sunday) tend to loathe her. Philip Cross 20:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but if it's such an important part of who she is and what she writes about, shouldn't there be something better than a review of a children's film to illustrate it? If that's all that we can find, then you would have to draw that conclusion that it (being criticism of Christianity) is a particularly important part of her writing at all-ie by all means lets have something about her criticising Christianity, or Judaism-but something a bit more substantial than her slagging off a kiddies film.Any ideas?FelixFelix talk 11:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Interview added as external link may provide useful material for expanding Toynbee's views on religion. Pdch (talk) 18:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nickle and Dimed

The wikilink was removed as it is a repeat link in the same section as per manual of style FelixFelix talk 15:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)