Talk:Politics in The Simpsons

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This article was nominated for deletion on January 31, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on August 14, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 shifting alliances 2 The George H. W. Bush quote 3 Homer and Abe communists? 4 Paragraph 1 5 Gun Politics 6 not OR 7 Page protected 8 The list of members of the Republican Party 8.1 Must include Mr. Burns

[edit] shifting alliances

It should be noted that the show was rather hard on Bill Clinton, in one episode, it went so far as having Clinton assure Lisa "You've learned a good lesson, if you complain long enough, you'll get your way...", when Marge protests "that's a pretty lousy lesson", Clinton responds "I'm a pretty lousy President", note fellow Dem Jimmy Carter is often ridiculed, in Marge Goes to Jail, the town substitutes an Abe Lincoln Statue for one of Jimmy Carter, resulting in a riot, in another episode, Carter is portrayed as a rapper "I've got a brother named Billy and my teeth look silly",,,GOP Presidents Ford and Bush the elder were treated much better, in the past season however, in an apparent criticism of the Iraq war Homer refers to George W. Bush as "commander cuckoo bannanas"....

Indeed, the show has definitely shifted, and hard. Homer, in particular, seems to be the voice of the opinions of whomever is writing for him at the time. Still, this could be part of his character, as he is 'the highly suggestible type' ^_^

In the past I think they tried to be even. Most TV comedies just refuse to say anything negative about the Democratic Party, they were one of the few to buck that trend. Still I think the general message was Republicans are actively evil whereas Democrats are basically good people who are just foolish or unlucky.--T. Anthony 14:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why does everyone have to be either republicans or democrats? Lisa for exampel is definetley not republican, but she has said things that are more leftist than the democratic party's capitalist liberal centre-left policies. Like in the episode where she critized people who have butlers.--DaGrob 18:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the sections should be changed to "right-leaning" and "left-leaning"? --Rubber cat 08:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't list everybody (for example, it doesn't list Bart). It only list those characters who at one time or another have supported a specific party.--Per Abrahamsen 20:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The George H. W. Bush quote

I don't know the context, but it is necessarily a slam against the show? I suspect that the creators of The Simpsons doesn't think it represents how an American family should ideally be.--Per Abrahamsen 01:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homer and Abe communists?

Why is Abe and Homer stated as communists? They are more likely mild Republican or non-beligerent. Abe has on several occasions criticized Democrats, and Homer seemed to have a good friendship with Republican former President Gerald Ford. Reason Abe could have the Communist Party card could be because he is senile, and it is typical for Homer if he took the card so he could exploit them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.160.111.57 (talk) 13:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Communist here refers to superficial party association, rather than inner conviction. Which makes the case clear for Abe (being a party member), less so for Homer (stealing a membership card doesn't make you a member).--Per Abrahamsen 14:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paragraph 1

Politics is a common theme in the animated television series The Simpsons, and this phenomenon has had some crossover with real American politics. U.S. conservatives have voiced opposition to the show,^{[citation needed]} perhaps because The Simpsons has mocked traditional authority figures such as teachers and parents. ^{[citation needed]} U.S. President George H. W. Bush has even said that the U.S. needs to be closer to The Waltons than to The Simpsons ^{[citation needed]}(although his son, George W. Bush is an admitted fan of the show). ^{[citation needed]}If the show has a liberal slant, this was joked about in the episode "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular," in which reference was made to "hundreds of radical right-wing messages inserted into every show by creator Matt Groening." ^{[citation needed]} More recently, however, U.S. conservatives have adopted a derisive Simpsons term for the French, "cheese-eating surrender monkeys."^[1].

• This should be deleted. The entire thing lacks citations and the only citation given says nothing specifically about only conservatives using these terms. Furthermore, sentences like "conservatives have voiced opposition to the show,^{[citation needed]} perhaps because The Simpsons has mocked traditional authority figures such as teachers and parents. " Are a blatant NPOV violation. The word "perhaps" alone is indicative of an opinion with a POV.Jellonuts 21:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • There was a reference; please don't delete references. Secondly, the number of fact tags was indiscriminate; "hundreds of radical right-wing messages inserted into every show by creator Matt Groening" is a direct quote from the episode. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 00:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, The reference that was there did not have the information it was cited as having. Also, **"Perhaps because..." is an opinion and violates NPOV. Also stop deleting citation requests, if you quote, paraphrase, or make assertations they require citations Jellonuts 22:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does. It says right wingers are using the phrase and got it from the Simpsons. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 02:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• • • It does NOT say "It says right wingers are using the phrase" it says that one person, this columnist named Goldberg, said it. That is just an opinion, or a POV if you will, not a fact. The only fact it says is that this Mr. Goldberg said it, not that " U.S. conservatives have adopted a derisive Simpsons term for the French, "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"" That implies that most conservsatives have done this, and I contest the factualness of that statement without sources. The column that is cited says "according to Goldberg", not "according to U.S. conservatives." Cite a source that identifies the that conservatives in general use this term to describe the French. Right now, this whole paragraph is just stating a POV. How can you not see that; "perhaps becasuse..." alone is a buzz word for POV. The quotes and paraphrases from the President of the U.S. are not cited. " U.S. conservatives have voiced opposition to the show"...now this POV statement makes it sound like most conservatives are opposed to the show. Cite a reliable, reviewed source that indicates this to be true, or add in there that some U.S. moderates, liberals, and everybody in-between have expressed opposition. "If the show has a liberal slant".... encyclopedias are about facts, the nature of this statement also implies that this is not a fact, but a point of view. Cite some sources. However, I do see that "hundreds of radical right-wing messages inserted into every show by creator Matt Groening" is a direct quote from a linked episode, so I apologize for fact-tagging that.Jellonuts 03:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that was all true if your memory goes back that far. But anyway, the source is good- it came from the Guardian, it's citable. On the whole, though, I wouldn't be too heart-broken if the article went to AfD- I don't know if it's important enough to get worked up about. Next time, though, try fixing stuff instead of deleting footnotes and claiming there was never any there, and adding unneeded fact tags. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 04:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC) **I do apologize for the mistakes, I am getting better at this but I am still learning as I go. I'll be sure to put things on the talk pages before making a major edit or deletion. Thanks for reminding me.Jellonuts 04:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

• left|150px|thumb|N.Y. Post cover from Dec. 7, 2006 -- Scorpion 04:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
  • No fair use pics on talk pages please. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 04:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Very well, but it still proves my point: More than one writer has used this phrase. -- Scorpion 04:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I agree with you Scorpion, but not all of those writers are conservatives and not all conservatives use the term.Jellonuts 04:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Then why not just say "however, the derisive Simpsons term for the French, "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" has been used by some right wing advocates"? -- Scorpion 04:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
        • That's fine as long as you add in there "has been used by some left-wing and moderate advocates" too. Why single out one group when several have said it?Jellonuts 04:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
          • How about just "has been used by left and right wing advocates"? -- Scorpion 05:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gun Politics

Treehouse of Horror XIII makes a statement about gun politics. Lisa convinces the entire town to disarm, from criminals to ordinary citizens to police as a tribute to a victim of gun violence. However, this "victim" turns out to be Billy the Kid, and he and his companions tear the town apart, being the only ones with firearms. Homer goes back in time to get the people of Springfield to retain their arms and directs them to the graveyard, where they shoot up the graves of Billy the Kid and his associates. They leap out of their graves and are chased over the horizon, outgunned and defeated. Lisa then admits that guns sometimes are the answer. However, at this point, another Homer appears from the distant future, who warns them of their course of action. He is promptly gunned down by Moe, who proceeds to steal his time machine in order to seek out "caveman hookers". CeeWhy2 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 12:11:21, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

[edit] not OR

Scorpion the majority of the stuff that you are deleting like the members of the Springfield republican party comes directly from episodes of the Simpsons.I have noticed you like to destroy large parts of pages using the realy week OR argument, but you do seem to want to help these pages —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.55.23.102 (talk)

Very well, I will explain why I removed what I did.

*[[List of celebrities in The Simpsons#Sideshow Mel|Sideshow Mel]], the party's gossip *[[Bob Dole]] *[[Ralph Nader]] *[[Count Dracula]] *A bloodthirsty troll-like creature

• I can't remember Mel ever being shown in the party and the rest are real life or non-Simpsons figures.

==Springfield Cultural Advisory Board== Springfield's Cultural Advisory Board was featured in the episode "[[The Seven-Beer Snitch]]", a group that decides what to build to attract touring to Springfield. They also hold degrees relating to art. Known members of the board include: [[Marge Simpson]], the leader *[[Julius Hibbert]] *[[Ned Flanders]] *[[List of recurring characters from The Simpsons#Helen Lovejoy|Helen Lovejoy]] *[[Carl Carlson]] *[[Moe Syszlak]] *[[Seymour Skinner]] Among one another, the board is shown as quick to coming to desisions, and they seldom mock one another. They are intelligent, though dim at times. Indeed, [[Julius Hibbert]] is also a member of the Republican Party and Mensa Society, however practices medicine illegally. The rest of the board is shown as a contemptuous group (a homemaker, a doctor, a religious man, a gossip, a drunk, a bartender, and a principal).

• How exactly does that relate to politics? As well, calling them a contemptuous group is POV.

== Independents and minor political parties == None of the characters in the Simpsons animated series have been labeled as being an independent or affiliating with a minor political party. However, third political parties do exist in the fictional universe, albeit they are often not shown as a viable choice. * When [[Ned Flanders]] first opened up the "Leftorium" ("[[When Flanders Failed]]"), it almost went under and Ned made a comment to Homer that the Springfield [[Libertarian Party (United States)|Libertarian Party]] would be using the space occupied by the store. * When [[Maggie]] is sent to day care, she is sent to one that operated under the principles of [[Ayn Rand]], who is sometimes seen as a major influence on American Libertarianism. * Frequent [[Green Party (United States)|Green Party]] presidential candidate [[Ralph Nader]] is seen in the Simpsons episode [[Brawl in the Family]] as secret member of the Springfield Republican Party, no doubt a joke based upon the belief that Nader cost [[Al Gore]] the 2000 presidential election. * In the [[Treehouse of Horror VII]] segment ''Citizen Kang'', aliens Kang and Kodos abduct [[United States presidential election, 1996|current US presidential candidates]] [[Bill Clinton]] and [[Bob Dole]] and impersonate them. Several political jokes are made throughout the segment including a joke where Kang and Kodos, after being unmasked by Homer, state that they could either vote for one of them or "throw [their] vote away" on a [[Third party (politics)|third party candidate]] (to which [[Reform Party of the United States of America|Reform Party]] candidate [[Ross Perot]] is shown in the crowd.) Kang ends up winning and enslaving humanity. * In [[Brother from the Same Planet]] a [[Springfield Isotopes]] game is delayed whilst a representative of the Springfield Communist Party attempts to give a speech before being pelted with tomatoes.

• Entire section is NN cruft and OR.

A debate on government funding of education, a classically [[Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#Some_positions_associated_with_modern_liberalism|liberal]] position in the [[United States]] versus the opposition of [[Conservatism in the United States|American conservatives]] towards increased [[American_conservatism#Conservatism_as_.22ideology.2C.22_or_political_philosophy|government taxation]] can be seen in "[[The PTA Disbands]]". [[Edna Krabappel]] claims that the demands of the teachers are reasonable, asking simply for better supplies and a modest cost of living wage increase. Principal [[Seymour Skinner]] replies that the school is on a very tight budget as it is, pointing out that there's no more money in the school's budget even after the cutbacks he has made, since the school's funding has been cut yet again. Mrs. Krabappel is urging parents to support the teachers in their strike to better their children's futures, while Principal Skinner claims that to pay what the teachers are asking, they would be forced to raise taxes. The audience at the PTA meeting is left debating over whether the education system is worth greater investment through taxation.

• Again, no sources, POV and OR.

The episode "[[Homer vs. The Eighteenth Amendment]]" can be seen as a statement against [[Prohibition]], as a Prohibition scheme fails in the episode, and an officer charged with enforcing the law is [[catapult]]ed out of town. While "[[The Cartridge Family]]" clearly mocks irresponsibility with firearms hiding behind the [[second Amendment to the United States Constitution|Second Amendment]], Krusty is seen making a speech about how guns are valuable ''if'' handled responsibly ("Guns arn't toys. There for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals and keeping the king of England out of your face.").

• Once again, no sources, POV and OR.

The episode "[[Bart-Mangled Banner]]" relates to concerns about the [[USA PATRIOT Act]] and free-speech. In the episode the Simpson family is sent to a "re-education center" for defaming the USA, almost completely by accident. There they meet [[Bill Clinton]] who had been sent to the center for criticizing [[tax cuts]]. The family eventually escapes to [[France]] before returning to the US as [[immigrants]].

• Yet again, no sources, POV and OR.

==Sugar Lobby== The episode, "[[Sweets and Sour Marge]]" features Marge filing against a sugar company, Motherloving Sugar Co., which can in many ways be seen as a reference to the "Big Sugar". In the episode, Springfield gets in to the Duff Book of Records as the "Fat City USA". This makes Marge question the obesity in town and discover that all goods in Kwik-E-Mart are overloaded with sugar. The episode also features an arrogant sugar boss, Garth Motherloving (who claims his actual last name was "Hitler", although this could be sarcastic.), who was voiced by [[Ben Stiller]] and his company making sugar out of dump.

• What exactly does that have to do with politics?

==Immigration== ''The Simpsons'' has also covered [[immigration]] controversies in the episode "[[Much Apu About Nothing]]."

• No sources.

I always find it amusing when random people who have no knowledge of Wikipedia policy try to argue policy with experienced editors. If you want random "In this episode ____ does _____" facts, then start your own site, or join the Simpsons Wiki. I have a vast record of improving articles and take a look at The Simpsons, which is a Featured article and then this one and you'll notice a HUGE difference. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 23:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have been editing Wikipedia annonimesly at different addresses for over two years, and and it seems that must of the "improvements" you make are deliting large portions because you clame they are ether cruft or OR, just because you are not familiar with it. You have deleted several things that I have written involving both the simpsons and wrestling but until now I never had a good enough case to challenge you, I am going to re add the information with sources and explanations, but you do not seem to know much about u.s. politics(which is ok since you are Canadian). you seem to want to do a good job but editing is more then just deleting stuff it involves tagging and finding sources. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.55.23.102 (talk)

If you really have been here for two years, then you would know that SNPP is not a reliable source. This is the kind of topic that could have a nice long and well sourced page, but it would require work. You need to back up all claims with sources, even if it does seem like its common knowledge. If you are interested in cleaning up the page, Planet Simpson is a good source. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page protected

I've fully protected the page for 5 days. Debating in edit summaries is inefficient and just leads to more reverting. Use the talk page folks. CIreland (talk) 16:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The list of members of the Republican Party

My arguments for the removal of the section:

1. It's overdetailing and giving undue weight to minor jokes, perhaps the party itself figures slightly into the plot, but none of the members do.
2. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
3. Like it or not, it is cruft.
4. The only reasons you seem to be able to find that favour keeping it are essays that are used to attack arguments.
5. You said "It has been here a long time before you decided out of the blue that it was cruft", so? The amount of time something stays in an article does not add to its notability. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 16:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry it took so long for me to reply scorpion, I could not get to a computer this weekend My arguments for the keeping this section

• you are siting an essay on one persons thoughts not guidelines
  • A lot of uses agree with it, and last time I checked WP:UNDUE and WP:NOT#INFO were policies. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• It is a short list that is vary relevant to the article
  • Take a look at all of the Good Simpsons related articles and see how many have a list like that. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• As for your under weight argument, it seems to me that republicans being involved in politics is the majority viewpoint, and by erasing it you are violating the guidelines (do you even read these befor you link to them)
  • The republicans being involved IS important, but a list of the members is not. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• Like I've told you before just because Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information douse not mean that you can openly discriminate against information.
• I am tired of your cruft argument please read the following essay WP:ITSCRUFT
  • It seems to me that I've used several other policy based arguments. By the way, you criticize me for always citing an essay when you yourself have started citing essays. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 18:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• When you did your typical mass deletions in this article month ago you agreed that this was not cruft what made you change your mind —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.40.155 (talk) 17:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the list is NOT relevant at all. Them being republicans doesn't effect their day to day lives in the show. And what are you talking about "discriminating against information"??? We don't have listcruft anywhere, you act like we have it in a lot of articles, and we just don't want a list of republicans. That is illogical and incorrect. We remove all cruft. Ctjf83^talk 18:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Must include Mr. Burns

The Springfield Republican party is presented as an evil organization, so that it's highly-relevant that the evil Mr. Burns runs most or all the meetings. AnonMoos (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

republicans are evil...but I'd agree to listing him as the Springfield republican leader, but there is no reason we need a list of all the members. Ctjf83^talk 22:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)