Talk:Polish style pickled cucumber

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[edit] Article title

(moved from my talk page) Mukadderat 15:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


Hi! Mind if I asked you why did you move the article on ogórek kiszony to some bizarre English name? Apart from the fact that the new name you chose is misleading (technically it's not a pickle and has little to do with pickled cucumbers), usually we don't translate the names of dishes. Chili con carne is not called Paprica with meat, nor is pasta called Italian style noodles. //Halibutt 07:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Little to do?

From Pickling:

"Pickling, or corning, is the process of preparing a food by soaking and storing it in a brine containing salt, acid (usually vinegar), or both, a process which can preserve otherwise perishable foods for months. The resulting food is called a pickle.
Pickling in brine often results in anaerobic fermentation, by either lactic acid bacteria or by yeast.
If the food contains sufficient moisture a pickling brine may be produced simply by adding dry salt. "

From Ogórek kiszony (i.e., old version, without my changes):

"Ogórek kiszony or Ogórek kwaszony (lit. Soured cucumber) is a traditional Polish-style of pickled cucumber. As opposed to its other varieties, it is prepared using the traditional process of natural fermentation in a salty brine."

Notice that it is said pickling may be done using only salt, which is exactly done in ogorek kishony.

[edit] Names of dises?

"Pasta" entered many languages as generic name of a type of food, not a dish. chili con carne is a dish.

As far as I understand "Ogorek kishony" is just "pickled cucumber" only in Polish language, i.e., a generic way of conservation of cucumbers. Every country has it specifics in pickling cucumbers, and we probably will not have hundreds of articles with names in all foreign languages. Just the same, we have Indian pickle, not some Bhabhakutta phikladu.

[edit] Bizarre English name?

I assume this was not meant as an insult, just a feature of your expression.

In a food store, I see "Polish pickles" or "Pickled susumbers (Polish style)" or "Polish dill pickles" or something like this. I don't remember seeing "ogorek kiszony", except on imported foods, but I can ask. If you don't believe me, I have a digital camera and can send you images of several stickers and you explain me how they differ from "ogorek kiszony" (could be a good extension of the topic). For an exercise I looked for Polish dill pickle in google and found a bunch of recipes basicalle the same as in your article, ie "+salt + water + species".

Concluding, I failed to see any evidence that "ogorek kiszony" is less bizarre English name than "Polish style pickled cucumbers". Mukadderat 15:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Very well put, Mukadderat, and thank you for the link regarding Indian pickles, I was not previously familiar with the difference between them, and the Western version. Dr. Dan 16:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, very well put, with the exception that... you missed the point in most cases. While indeed I was wrong and the process might be called pickling in English, there is a huge difference between the traditional Slavic way (by no means exclusively Polish) and the way people eat pickled cucumbers in the west.
As to the name, ogórek kiszony is not a generic name for pickle in Polish. Pickles are called simply pikle, and pickled cucumbers are usually called either pikle, ogórki piklowane, or korniszony (ogórek marynowany is also used). As I already said, sour cucumbers are a different thing... Besides, it is funny that out of the entire Category:Indian cuisine you decided to chose the only (or one of very few) dish/ingredient that is actually translated instead of left in the original form.. Pick any other cuisine-related category and you'll see the same: names of dishes not translated.
And finally, the English stores.. It might indeed have been a valid argument... if one could sell sour cucumbers in jars or bottles or any other vessel. However, I have yet to see sour cucumbers sold in a different way than straight from a barrel. Perhaps it is technically possible to preserve such food, but I have never seen it - and believe me, I'm a huge fan of cucumbers in all forms. So, the thing you see in shops is most probably a standard pickle, marinated cucumber or whatever you want to call it. Little to do with this one. //Halibutt 09:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
In Chicago, you will find them in barrels, and you will find them in sealed plastic bags in their juices (recommended to be kept refigerated), in many Eastern European delicatessens. You'll find them in German, Lithuanian, Polish as well as other ethnic establishments. Nothing more Polish about these style of pickle than the other ones, and once again, no reason to continually place your Polocentric POV in the English WK, and then argue about it over and over. Dr. Dan 12:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Mind your tongue, Dan. It was not me to rename this article to underline it's "Polish-style". //Halibutt 21:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
You are asking me to mind my tongue. Let me remind you to review your work in this article. In the first place, there is nothing uniquely Polish about this food product and it is seen in many, many European countries and elsewhere in the world as well. Inspite of this, you named the product ogorek kiszony in the Polish language in English WK, and continued to argue about its unique Polish methods of preparation and storage. After you got your hand caught in the cookie jar, or should I say more appropriately, caught in the pickle barrel, you want me to mind my tongue. If you don't think you have a Polocentric POV which, is constantly put forth virtually all of the time, you need to step back and take a good look at yourself. And besides I didn't intend my remark to be insulting, just factual. Sort of when you referred to "some bizarre English name" was not meant to be insulting to the English speaking participants in English WK, I'm sure. And as Mukudderat suggested, it was merely just a feature of your expression. Right? Dr. Dan 17:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I used the most convenient name since that's how this thing is actually called. I did not insist on Polish origin nor did I try to force anyone to accept any views. And there was certainly no Polonocentric POV in my questioning the "Polish-style" name, rather to the contrary. And it seems that the people to defend the current name are much more Polonocentric than yours truly, so please spare me such personal remarks in the future and please try to focus on the article content, not the interpersonal layer of wiki community. Have a problem with me personally - try my talk page. Have a problem with some naming - try appropriate talk page. Don't mix the two. //Halibutt 17:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
First of all, you asked me recently to stay off your talk page, and I told you fine, I don't like to go where I'm not wanted. Second of all, naming a food product in the Polish language, that is not exclusively Polish in preparation or storage, and then trying to argue that those are the reasons that you named it so in the Polish language, on English Wikipedia, is very bogus. So yes, I have a problem with its naming, and thought I was addressing the issue on the proper talk page. Dr. Dan 04:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Nationality" of this Pickle

Have thought it over and just want to say this "style" of pickle has no unique nationality. Its method of preparation is found in many European countries' cuisines. The title is inappropriate. Dr. Dan 03:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pickle-naming discussion

I have merged "Polish-style pickled cucumber" into "Pickled Cucumber". I didn't realize that it had previously been something else, and thus, saw no reason why this food wouldn't fit under "pickled cucumber" -- since that is what it is, at base. The entry wasn't clear as to whether vinegar was used, although I suspected that might be the difference between it and other (what I call) "pickles". I will update the entry in Pickled Cucumber to emphasize it's fresher, BRINE-only status. It is a difficult subject because there are so many slangs and overlapping of terms.In US stores, anyway, Kosher pickles aren't kosher, just made "New York Deli-style" and Polish style pickles really aren't, and Gherkins aren't really made with the plant Cucumis anguria. And in Britain, apparently, pickles are just any condiments, unless it is "a jar of pickles" in which case it tends to be a pickled cucumber. Utopienne 17:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC) Speaking of which, I don't know that ogórek kiszony comes up often enough in English to warrant an entry in the EN wiki.. although it should obviously be in the Polish wiki.

[edit] How different is too different?

Which leads me to another question, which should probably be reposted in Wiki:food and drink somewhere better than this. However, how different does a dish have to be to qualify for an entry? I make Shepard's Pie all the time, with crust, meat (no wine, just tomatoes), corn/veggie layer, potatoes. But some people claim that something as far different as just meat (with rich sauce) with mashed yams on top is also Shepard's pie? How will we deal with this... distance? Food is necessarily a fluid, evolving world, and there aren't really "experts" so much as in other fields. What counts as citations? etc. Utopienne 17:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)